Mid-Season Report: U.S. Ladies, R.D. Style

[MKFSfan]

Rachel Flatt articles (the usual, how smart she is, yada yada)

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/olym...09-11-11-flatt-balances-training-school_N.htm

http://www.denverpost.com/newsheadlines/ci_13986751

While the second article acknowledges that the US ladies are not medal contenders, it does point out what happened with Hughes in '02 and Arakawa in '06 (although the former was a MUCH bigger shocker, to me anyway)

I'm sorry but I am so sick of hearing how Sarah's win was such a shocker-is it just me or does EVERY article on the US Ladies have to bring up Sarah and her "shocking" win???-and now to hear Rachael linked in a similar position...Sarah BEAT the two co-favorites at Skate Canada 3 months before the Olympics games. She was also considered "robbed" at Skate America by one of the favorites. She was then on the podium at the GPF, Bronze, along with the two co-favoites, which was the same three on the podium at Worlds the year before. None of the American Ladies, including Flatt, can be considered in any way, shape, or form in a similar spot as Sarah was. Yes, Sarah was a long shot for Gold, BUT she was still a contender.

Shizuka is another story, but again, very different from Flatt and co. because she was already a World Champion, 2 time National Champion and had numerous other medals to her name. So, while she managed to deliver at the right time, she was still in the mix. I agree with R.D. that Sarah's win was more of a surprise that Shizuka, but I don't think either are as surprising as if one of the current US Ladies (not Sasha) are on the podium in Vancouver. JMO!

OK...now that I have that off my chest...

I am beginning to really like Rachael! She is very endearing and the more I learn about her, the more I admire and respect her. I think she has to be on the team, she has steadily improved since becoming a Senior and has so many tools to compete under COP. I do think the best is yet to come from her, and I'd love to see her gain exposure/experience and then move on towards 2014.

 

[silverlake22]

Shizuka is another story, but again, very different from Flatt and co. because she was already a World Champion, 2 time National Champion and had numerous other medals to her name. So, while she managed to deliver at the right time, she was still in the mix. I agree with R.D. that Sarah's win was more of a surprise that Shizuka, but I don't think either are as surprising as if one of the current US Ladies (not Sasha) are on the podium in Vancouver. JMO!


I am beginning to really like Rachael! She is very endearing and the more I learn about her, the more I admire and respect her. I think she has to be on the team, she has steadily improved since becoming a Senior and has so many tools to compete under COP. I do think the best is yet to come from her, and I'd love to see her gain exposure/experience and then move on towards 2014.

Ok, about Sasha, I am very confused why she ever won so much in the first place. Did she regularly land 6 or 7 triples in her long? I always thought she was more like Alissa in that the jumps were all over the place....yet somehow she still managed to always medal. Kind of like the deal with the European ladies. I was so young when I used to watch her I don't remember about the jumps. If she did land lots of triples then I guess it makes sense. I guess 6.0 was different but in CoP a good spiral is not enough to make someone get great scores, and really Sasha's specialties were her spirals and presentation (not even spins as they weren't spectacular). If she managed to get really high scores without landing lots of jumps, you'd think Alissa would be getting scores above 100....

As for Rachael, I really hope she makes the US team too. She's the best shot we have for a good placement even including Sasha b/c Sasha is injured and hasn't competed in 4 years. I know the other ladies CAN be better than her, but that rarely happens

 

[Tonichelle]

Sasha would make one or two mistakes in the LP... she was/is a great SP skater... artistry always got scored high... in CoP she had a great team that knew the system well and made programs that catered to it...

she didn't implode everytime she stumbled... she still got through the program... she didn't look like she was going to crumble... Alissa, on the other hand...

 

[silverlake22]

Sasha would make one or two mistakes in the LP... she was/is a great SP skater... artistry always got scored high... in CoP she had a great team that knew the system well and made programs that catered to it...

she didn't implode everytime she stumbled... she still got through the program... she didn't look like she was going to crumble... Alissa, on the other hand...

Okay, this makes more sense. Alissa normally has 3 mistakes in the long, some combination of falls and URs which get her down to 3 clean triples. If Sasha normally pulled off 4 or 5 that makes a difference, European ladies medal with 4 or 5 all the time.

I'm really surprised that Alissa can't milk the CoP more though. Rachael Flatt is an excellent technician but she always seems to get good scores without having great spirals, spins, or speed, she clearly knows how to work the CoP though. I know Alissa is kind of slow and she slows down more when she makes mistakes, but her spins and spirals are obviously level 4, and most of her PCS scores one would think should be high. Maybe does she have level 2 footwork or something? Negative or zeros for GOEs? 100 is really not a competitive FS score and she seems to be stuck right at 100 for almost every isu competition she competes at. I would think even with her normal jump mistakes she'd be able to squeak out a 110. Anyone have any insight?

 

[Mathman]

^ I think it really is just the mistakes on the jumps. At Skate Canada, for instance, she came second only to Rochette in PCSs, she had all level 3s and level 4s with positive GOEs on her non-jump elemets, and her jump base values were about 40, quite competitive.

But three downgradws and two falls cost her about 15 points. She could easily have scored 120 points with that program, minus the jump errors.

 

[silverlake22]

^ I think it really is just the mistakes on the jumps. At Skate Canada, for instance, she came second only to Rochette in PCSs, she had all level 3s and level 4s with positive GOEs on her non-jump elemets, and her jump base values were about 40, quite competitive.

But three downgradws and two falls cost her about 15 points. She could easily have scored 120 points with that program, minus the jump errors.

Oh, so if you fall on a jump and it's fully rotated you just lose a point, but if you fall on a jump and it isn't fully rotated, the jump gets scored as a double, gets bad GOEs b/c its over-rotated and you fell, and you lose the extra point for falling? That's a lot of points lost right there and if that happens twice....that's easily 10 points. This makes more sense. In that case, if she's going to fall anyways, why not attack the jump so that if you do end up falling, at least it's fully rotated? Alissa confuses me

 

[janetfan]

Ok, about Sasha, I am very confused why she ever won so much in the first place. Did she regularly land 6 or 7 triples in her long? I always thought she was more like Alissa in that the jumps were all over the place....yet somehow she still managed to always medal.

Sasha was usually in the top 3 and many times 1st after the SP.

Her jumps were not as shaky as Alissa, and like toni said if she popped a jump or even fell she was very good at getting back into her program. Sasha , btw, skated much faster than Alissa or Rachael and I never heard her criticizued for being too slow.

Sasha typically landed as many or more triple jumps in an LP than what we have seen from Yuna, Mao, Miki and Caro the past two seasons.

Sasha attemped a quad in competition and there are clips of her landing them in practice. Sasha was not as consistent a jumper as Michelle but most of today' skaters are not as consistent as Michelle was either.

The overall effect of Sasha's skating was dazzling and don't believe anything a few poster's say about her. The judge wasn't born who didn't like her skating and mark her very highly. That is the reason she made so many podiums.

Rachael is not yet in Sasha's class as a skater. Maybe Rachael will surpass Sasha but she hasn't yet. Let's see what happens in Vancouver. At 17 Sasha was second to Michelle at Natls and 4th at the Olympics.

Rachael at 17 could win Natls and medal at the Olympics . Then she would be showing more than potential. But Rachael also doesn't have a Michelle to contend with at Natls and maybe not even a Sarah. But she might have Sasha to compete against

 

[Tonichelle]

Sasha skated to music that gave her power, too, she performed every second she could. really milking the musical energy... Dark Eyes is one of my favorite ladies programs of all time...

didn't really like her skating until I saw it LIVE... she makes it really hard not to get into her programs when you're sitting right there.

 

[janetfan]

Sasha skated to music that gave her power, too, she performed every second she could. really milking the musical energy... Dark Eyes is one of my favorite ladies programs of all time...

didn't really like her skating until I saw it LIVE... she makes it really hard not to get into her programs when you're sitting right there.

Thanks for reminding me and you are right. Sasha was one of the greatest performers in in the history of Ladies skating. It was also a big part of her success.

 

[Mathman]

Oh, so if you fall on a jump and it's fully rotated you just lose a point, but if you fall on a jump and it isn't fully rotated, the jump gets scored as a double, gets bad GOEs b/c its over-rotated and you fell, and you lose the extra point for falling? That's a lot of points lost right there and if that happens twice....that's easily 10 points. This makes more sense. In that case, if she's going to fall anyways, why not attack the jump so that if you do end up falling, at least it's fully rotated? Alissa confuses me

I am sure Alissa wishes she knew the answer to that one. Like the baseball player who asks, why do I keep on striking out instead of hitting home runs like I am trying to?

But for the first part of your post, yeah, for the two jumps she fell on she ended up with 0.09 points for her triple Lutz (it should have been worth 6.60 base + bonus), and for her triple loop she got a total of negative 0.68.

On the loop she not only got a downgrade, a fall deduction, and negative GOE, but was also hit with the sequence factor and by falling could not put on the extra 2T or 2Lo that she had planned.

As far as going all out to make sure you get the rotations, I am sure all skaters try to do that. Sometimes it doesn't work out. Quite often (and certainly in Alissa's case) it is the underrotation that causes the fall.

Dick Button once made the observation that Alissa's biggest technical problem on jumps is that she is not able to get perfect coordination between the upper and lower halves of her body. Sometimes her head and neck swivel too fast, her shoulders get ahead of her legs, her blades don't quite make it all the way around, and down she goes.

 

[Tonichelle]

Dick Button once made the observation that Alissa's biggest technical problem on jumps is that she is not able to get perfect coordination between the upper and lower halves of her body. Sometimes her head and neck swivel too fast, her shoulders get ahead of her legs, her blades don't quite make it all the way around, and down she goes.

for some reason I am picturing alissa as some warped rubic's cube.

 

[Mathman]

I'm sorry but I am so sick of hearing how Sarah's win was such a shocker-is it just me or does EVERY article on the US Ladies have to bring up Sarah and her "shocking" win?...Sarah BEAT the two co-favorites at Skate Canada 3 months before the Olympics games. She was also considered "robbed" at Skate America by one of the favorites.... Yes, Sarah was a long shot for Gold, BUT she was still a contender.

What was really thrilling, if you were a Sarah Hughes fan, was to watch her coming on like the Pony Express in the two years leading up the the Olympics. In the 2000-01 season she pursued and eventually caught Maria Butyrskaya as the number three lady in the World. Then she set her sights on Michelle and Irina and stampeded over them at Skate Canada.

The ironic thing was that even while Sarah was doing her cavalkry xharge, eyes started to turn toward Sasha as the latest and greatest. After Sasha came third in the short, it could have gone either way -- or rather, any which way.

 

[silverlake22]

I am sure Alissa wishes she knew the answer to that one. Like the baseball player who asks, why do I keep on striking out instead of hitting home runs like I am trying to?

But for the first part of your post, yeah, for the two jumps she fell on she ended up with 0.09 points for her triple Lutz (it should have been worth 6.60 base + bonus), and for her triple loop she got a total of negative 0.68.

On the loop she not only got a downgrade, a fall deduction, and negative GOE, but was also hit with the sequence factor and by falling could not put on the extra 2T or 2Lo that she had planned.

As far as going all out to make sure you get the rotations, I am sure all skaters try to do that. Sometimes it doesn't work out. Quite often (and certainly in Alissa's case) it is the underrotation that causes the fall.

Dick Button once made the observation that Alissa's biggest technical problem on jumps is that she is not able to get perfect coordination between the upper and lower halves of her body. Sometimes her head and neck swivel too fast, her shoulders get ahead of her legs, her blades don't quite make it all the way around, and down she goes.

I distinctly remember that she used to do that a lot. I thought she spent all of 2007-2008 re-learning her jump technique though? It looked like her jumps were getting a lot better but she still falls quite a bit, not really in the short though. That loop is her nemesis! I feel like her 3loop is always UR! She should just do a 3sal or 3flip instead.

Idk if speed has anything to do with her jump problems, apparently she is quite slow but she doesn't usually seem all THAT slow (not like Caroline). I really hope she can pull it together at nats and land all 6 triples and then do it again at the Olympics, she's worked so hard for this and is a really lovely skater to watch. I wonder why she never thought of switching to ice dance competitively if her jumps have always been wonky

 

[R.D.]

If Czisny had a jump overhaul, I think she would absolutely be the US front-runner. But of course that's not going to happen (at least not in two months).

Maybe Alyssa needs another voice. She's had the same coach for years, hasn't she?

We need a steady hand like Rachel. Everyone else changes like the weather.

didn't really like [Cohen's] skating until I saw it LIVE... she makes it really hard not to get into her programs when you're sitting right there.

What program of hers did you see?

 

[Tonichelle]

I saw her in 2005 and 2006 at nationals... Dark Eyes was what caught my attention, both years

 

[R.D.]

I saw her in 2005 and 2006 at nationals... Dark Eyes was what caught my attention, both years

oh. For some reason I thought you were talking about a show. I've seen her do four programs live and I can say I liked only one (MS)...(that's one you have to see live- it doesn't come across much on TV iirc) Oh well, different strokes- I always thought she was cold, cautious, slow skater with bendy moves. But when she does the right program she can be engaging. She just needs to get out of her comfort zone! Dare I say, same for Caroline Zhang

What was really thrilling, if you were a Sarah Hughes fan, was to watch her coming on like the Pony Express in the two years leading up the the Olympics. In the 2000-01 season she pursued and eventually caught Maria Butyrskaya as the number three lady in the World. Then she set her sights on Michelle and Irina and stampeded over them at Skate Canada.

Man, you could have fooled me...Sarah Hughes fans actually EXIST? :chorus: Could never tell on these forums

 

[silverlake22]

If Czisny had a jump overhaul, I think she would absolutely be the US front-runner. But of course that's not going to happen (at least not in two months).

Maybe Alyssa needs another voice. She's had the same coach for years, hasn't she?

We need a steady hand like Rachel. Everyone else changes like the weather.



What program of hers did you see?

Yeah, Julie's been her coach for like 12 years or something. But Julie is also like her mommy, so I don't think she will leave her. But Alissa works with a LOT of people- Brian Boitano, Linda Leaver, Julie, she used to work with Theresa McKendry and might still, and I know she goes to Canada to get David Wilson to do her choreography. Maybe she's having more problems with bursas on her ankles again? I know she had them in 05, then switched to the hinge boots, but now she's in normal boots.

 

[chuckm]

Alissa's biggest problem is underrotation. Back in 2005, when she won Skate Canada and made it to the GPF (where she bombed), there wasn't the scrutiny we have today. Alissa is indeed a lovely skater, but she is neither a great technician nor a good competitor. I am concerned that once again USFS will ignore the URs and award Alissa Olympic and World berths and she will place 10th or lower in both events because the ISU callers will not ignore URs, and Alissa has consistently had a minimum of 3 URd triples per FS.

 

[R.D.]

Then again, Czisny could spare them the trouble and do herself in anyway, folding under the pressure. (e.g. 2009 Worlds SP)

 

[HCOSurfer]

Man, you could have fooled me...Sarah Hughes fans actually EXIST?

I feel like I'm the only one left :frown2: