Miki Ando Names New Coach
- Thread starter lotusland
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I have mixed feelings about Carol Heiss as a coach. Tonia K. certainly turned out OK. But with Goebel, it always frustrated me that once he got those quads down, she never seemed to sit him down and say, "OK, look, you have firmly established the fact that you can JUMP. Now let's do something about that artistry." At the very least, as one of the coaches from the "old school", as Ladskater appropriately put it, she should have at least done something about his VERY BAD SLOUCHY POSTURE which he has only in the last couple of years started to get rid of. That would have helped a lot right there; beyond that I don't think Tim is much of a natural artist anyway. Not even working with Lori Nichol has shown a tremendous amount of improvement in that area. Heiss did a pretty good job with Lisa Ervin, too -- but only up to a point. Part of what ended Ervin's career was an eating disorder, and I'm not altogether convinced that Heiss was oblivious to what was going on there.
As far as Heiss coaching Ando -- I think it will help her clean up some of her rough edges, but IMO if we expect to see improved artistry from her, she needs to be working with a top-notch choreographer who will help bring out more of that aspect in her skating.
As far as Heiss coaching Ando -- I think it will help her clean up some of her rough edges, but IMO if we expect to see improved artistry from her, she needs to be working with a top-notch choreographer who will help bring out more of that aspect in her skating.
Here's a statement (in English) from the Japanese federation mentioning the coaching change and announcing David Wilson (Canada) as the choreographer.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_5-4-2005_pg2_11
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_5-4-2005_pg2_11
Parting company
Think choosing a new coach has anything to do with Fumie's going back to the Satos? I'm very pleased: Fumie did well with the Satos and Miki did not do well (yes, she has some lovely qualities and has had good standings but she bores me to tears).
But I hate to see the push-pull thang going on with the top coaches.
Linny
Think choosing a new coach has anything to do with Fumie's going back to the Satos? I'm very pleased: Fumie did well with the Satos and Miki did not do well (yes, she has some lovely qualities and has had good standings but she bores me to tears).
But I hate to see the push-pull thang going on with the top coaches.
Linny
Sit Him Down
Methinks that CHJ DID sit Tim down and say "Now we've got to work your artistry" and the result was that Tim left. And speaking of push-pull with coaches, methinks that Tim and Evan weren't quite able to share Frank, thus Tim's move.
As far as Tim's artistry improving with Frank: I totally didn't see it. Mostly what I saw were lousy attempts to pretend to be Fred Astair. It's only now that Tim is skating with Audrey that I finally see some posture improvement.
As they say in AA, Fake It 'Till You Make It. IOWs, just because Tim and Miki aren't naturally musical doesn't mean they can't act like they are and, eventually, they'll get it.
Linnny
Methinks that CHJ DID sit Tim down and say "Now we've got to work your artistry" and the result was that Tim left. And speaking of push-pull with coaches, methinks that Tim and Evan weren't quite able to share Frank, thus Tim's move.
As far as Tim's artistry improving with Frank: I totally didn't see it. Mostly what I saw were lousy attempts to pretend to be Fred Astair. It's only now that Tim is skating with Audrey that I finally see some posture improvement.
As they say in AA, Fake It 'Till You Make It. IOWs, just because Tim and Miki aren't naturally musical doesn't mean they can't act like they are and, eventually, they'll get it.
Linnny
IIRC, Carol Heiss-Jenkins co-coached with Glynn Watts. Carol took care of the technical and Glynn focused on the presentation/stylization/artistic side of skating. When Tim decided to leave Carol because he reportedly had received enough criticism from the judges regarding his lack of presentation skills etc., he switched fulltime to Glynn Watts (the artistic coach). Again, IIRC, that was when the CHJ & GW realtionship cooled. Seeing no progress after less than a year, Tim then left Glynn and moved on once again.
It's not that no one has tried to teach the fella what looks puuurdie ... he just hasn't been receptive to hearing the message and effectively and seriously doing something about it.
It's not that no one has tried to teach the fella what looks puuurdie ... he just hasn't been receptive to hearing the message and effectively and seriously doing something about it.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Linny said:
With Tim, his problem is that he is just too stiff. Not everyone has the talent to be a dancer, no matter what they do. It's just not in them.
I thought Tim made remarkable progress during the first two years that he worked with choreographer Lori Nichol. She did indeed teach him how to fake it.
Still, the only chance Tim has of maintaining a top ranking is to get his quads back. If you do three quads, that fills up a certain amount of time in your program right there. Then you stretch your hand out...OK, that's another four seconds...
Mathman
I don't know why the Japaness Federation and Miki Ando decide to let Carol Heiss coaching Miki. Carol was a great competitior, but not a great coach. Coaching needs patience and talent. Miki has very good skating skill and all she needs is artistic expression which she wouldn't get too much from Carol. Miki could go to anybody else, maybe Richard Callahan, Frank Carroll, or John Nicks. I don't know if
these coaches sighed any sort of contract with the elite lady skaters that they should ot take other world competitiors. Richard Callahan does not have any elite lady now, or maybe Shizuka's experience was negative. TT could help Miki a lot. I doubt she would treat two Japaness girls differently. Basiclly I just feel Miki switched to a coach who can not give her the help she needs.
these coaches sighed any sort of contract with the elite lady skaters that they should ot take other world competitiors. Richard Callahan does not have any elite lady now, or maybe Shizuka's experience was negative. TT could help Miki a lot. I doubt she would treat two Japaness girls differently. Basiclly I just feel Miki switched to a coach who can not give her the help she needs.
jesslily said:
I can't agree with you that Carol isn't a good coach. Carol has coached numerous skaters who have competed in senior level nationals. Coaches might be determined on their ONE gold medal winning student, however a truly successful coach makes the best of all the talent that she works with. Carol's senior level skaters weren't all extremely talented, but her coaching ability plus their hard work enabled these skaters to make it to nationals. Compare her results with Linda Leaver's and Robin Wagner's. Despite having OGMs in Brian Boitano and Sarah Hughes, these ladies have not had a number of competitors make it to the senior level. As for Richard Callghan, the Japanese Federation burned their bridges with him in the abrupt coaching change they made with Shizuka so Richard isn't taking anymore Japanese skaters (he turned down Yoshie giving that reason). Obviously Nicks isn't going to take Sasha's potential rival and it seems that Frank Carroll is slowly reducing his coaching load to retire.
I think there is a lot Carol could do for Miki. Miki already has great basic skating skills. She has lots of power, good edges and is already smooth. She also already has all of her jumps. She just needs some polish. Keep in mind that Carol isn't a permanent coaching change. They're trying her out for a month and seeing where it goes from there. I think Miki is going to do what Shizuka is doing and work with a US based coach in tandem with a Japanese coach.
From the three skaters Carol Heiss coached recently(Tonia K., Tim Goable, and Parker Pennington), I feel Carol Heiss may not be good choice for enhancing artistic details. These skaters had been working with her for years, and their presetation were junioish. On the other hand she might be a great technical coach.
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
jesslily said:
Neither Tonia K. nor Parker P. had much success. A US nationals bronze (TN) is an accomplishment, but no champion at the senior level has emerged from the Heiss camp. Goebel earned top level honors (worlds silver, Olympic bronze) only after he left Heiss. Carol Heiss Jenkins may be a good coach upto a certain level but I don't see her as a top coach at the worlds level. She has coached many mediocre skaters (except for Tim G. when the jumps were THE thing) Miki already has the jumps; she needs the artistry to move up in the world rankings and Heiss seems like a wrong choice for that.
Vash
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
The ballet schools are packed with students learning from the same teachers. Not all these students emerge as principal dancers, allthough many become good technicians.
IMO, Yoshie and Miki should take ballet 3 times a week and 1 class of Spanish and l of Jazz. If that doesn't work, then no one is going to give them what is considered artistry.
Carol can give them good coaching on the elements with bonus points. The PCS is not easily taught. I believe it is innate.
Joe
IMO, Yoshie and Miki should take ballet 3 times a week and 1 class of Spanish and l of Jazz. If that doesn't work, then no one is going to give them what is considered artistry.
Carol can give them good coaching on the elements with bonus points. The PCS is not easily taught. I believe it is innate.
Joe
If you ask Miki or Yoshie, you might be surprised that they have been taken dances or at least ballet since they were little girls. I often met some skating mothers at local rink and they said to me proudly that their daughters started ballet before skating and still practicing it. But I did not notice the dance traing did not help their daughters' skating in-betweens.
Artistry is in the gene, and the dance teacher or skating coach can only enhance it.
Artistry is in the gene, and the dance teacher or skating coach can only enhance it.
Coach and choreographer can help bring out the talent that is within the skater, but they cannot make an interpretive artist of a girl who is as unmusical as Miki.
The choreographer can give her the moves and the coach can show her how to make the moves look more graceful, but putting together a winning interpretive performance is within the scope of the skater herself. And there, Miki's lack of musicality is a huge negative.
Miki is basically more an athletic skater, like Yoshie, although Miki's jumps are far more secure. But both Miki and Yoshie struggle with spins and footwork, and neither seems to be able to make the performance more than the sum of its parts. And that's what it takes to make a great champion.
The choreographer can give her the moves and the coach can show her how to make the moves look more graceful, but putting together a winning interpretive performance is within the scope of the skater herself. And there, Miki's lack of musicality is a huge negative.
Miki is basically more an athletic skater, like Yoshie, although Miki's jumps are far more secure. But both Miki and Yoshie struggle with spins and footwork, and neither seems to be able to make the performance more than the sum of its parts. And that's what it takes to make a great champion.
Miki has a lot of musicality. She displayed it in her Guitar Concerto LP. I also totally disagree with you that a choreographer can't help a skater achieve a certain look on the ice. Nancy Kerrigan has got to be one of the stiffest, most unmusical skaters ever yet the Scotvolds gave her programs that actually made her look better than she really was. I also think that MK wasn't all that musicall either in the beginning of her career. She didn't really start expressing music until she skated to Lyra Angelica. Her Salome and Taj Mahol programs were just a bunch of movements and jumps. Just b/c she was caked in makeup and had an exotic costume didn't mean that she expressed the music well at all.
Irina isn't even a musical skater or graceful and she can skate an entertaining program. Miki already has consistent jumps, great basic skating skills and well centered, fast basic spins. All Carol has to do is focus Miki on getting more extension on her spirals and getting used to doing more postions in her spins.
Irina isn't even a musical skater or graceful and she can skate an entertaining program. Miki already has consistent jumps, great basic skating skills and well centered, fast basic spins. All Carol has to do is focus Miki on getting more extension on her spirals and getting used to doing more postions in her spins.
musicality
Michelle Kwan skated to Tori Amos' Winter early in her career. She still had her ponytail... and it was her first try at choreography. Now, perhaps the words aren't the whole song, but please take a moment and review the lyrics. They turned out to be somewhat prophetic. Now, for her to find this and skate to it at such a young age tells me that she has music in her soul
Linny
Snow can wait
I forgot my mittens
Wipe my nose
Get my new boots on
I get a little warm in my heart
When I think of winter
I put my hand in my father's glove
I run off where the DRIFTS GET DEEPER
Sleeping beauty trips me with a frown
I hear a voice
"You must learn to stand up for yourself
Cause I can't alyways be around"
He says when you gonna make up your mind
When you gonna love you as much as I do
When you gonna make up your mind
Cause things are gonna CHANGE so fast
All the white horses are still in bed
I tell you that I'll always want you near
You say that things change my dear
Michelle Kwan skated to Tori Amos' Winter early in her career. She still had her ponytail... and it was her first try at choreography. Now, perhaps the words aren't the whole song, but please take a moment and review the lyrics. They turned out to be somewhat prophetic. Now, for her to find this and skate to it at such a young age tells me that she has music in her soul
Linny
Snow can wait
I forgot my mittens
Wipe my nose
Get my new boots on
I get a little warm in my heart
When I think of winter
I put my hand in my father's glove
I run off where the DRIFTS GET DEEPER
Sleeping beauty trips me with a frown
I hear a voice
"You must learn to stand up for yourself
Cause I can't alyways be around"
He says when you gonna make up your mind
When you gonna love you as much as I do
When you gonna make up your mind
Cause things are gonna CHANGE so fast
All the white horses are still in bed
I tell you that I'll always want you near
You say that things change my dear
So a skater is musical if they find meaning in the lyrics?
I took a modern dance class years ago and we had to choreograph a little program for a final project. One of the rules was that we could not choreograph the program to music. The teacher said that too many people emote to the music rather than develop the movements. Obviously music is a huge part of dance, but lots of beginners do rely on music as a crutch to carry a program rather than using the movement to convey a feeling/emotion.
I don't think that MK finding music that she can relate to the lyrics is any indication of musicality or sensitivity.
I took a modern dance class years ago and we had to choreograph a little program for a final project. One of the rules was that we could not choreograph the program to music. The teacher said that too many people emote to the music rather than develop the movements. Obviously music is a huge part of dance, but lots of beginners do rely on music as a crutch to carry a program rather than using the movement to convey a feeling/emotion.
I don't think that MK finding music that she can relate to the lyrics is any indication of musicality or sensitivity.
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