Mirai's Triple Lutz Unfairly Downgraded?

[silverlake22]

Where is Skatingpunk?? We need one of their hilarious stories on this 30 year old grudge that had a former skater tinkering with the results by going after her former competitor's coach's student

Oh please. I tend to think with Mirai's history of URs the tech caller was looking out for them. If she didn't have a history of URs, I think two of the three calls would have been ignored.

But, it's not like Mirai was the only one who got dinged for her jumps. I mean, Alissa and Caroline got FS scores in the 80s AT NATIONALS, and they each only fell once. That cute brunette girl Samantha Cesario landed 5 triples in her FS and got like 60 points for the program because they downgraded all 5 of the triples.

So sure, Ashley and Sasha were let off the hook for their 2-footed landings, but we all knew the USFSA was trying really hard to keep Ashley in the game after she got a 63 for her SP with a fall. And Sasha didn't get close to the score of Mirai even without getting called out on her flutz and URs, so it doesn't really matter. Rachael's jumps were all clean with the exception of the 3-3 in the LP, but even if that had been downgraded, she still would have won. Mirai managed to get a score of 118 with 3 ratified triples, so clearly, the judges agreed that her skating was great and that's why her scores were so high.

 

[i love to skate]

Oh please. I tend to think with Mirai's history of URs the tech caller was looking out for them. If she didn't have a history of URs, I think two of the three calls would have been ignored.

Huh? You have totally misinterpreted my post. We need one of the posters stories about conspiracy theories because they are hilarious! I don't believe in cospiracy theories.

 

[janetfan]

Where is Skatingpunk?? We need one of their hilarious stories on this 30 year old grudge that had a former skater tinkering with the results by going after her former competitor's coach's student

Sorry to break the news to you but I believe the hilarius skatingpunk is a Mirai fan.

I could be wrong and I would welcome any story from this witty poster.

 

[fairly4]

there is a way to settle this--you know how--
there was an article back depicting how they coaches through computer and can see how the skater jumps-
they kinda of have electrodes on the body and the picture comes up.
why don't they put them on in competition and lets a beep sound out if they ur they jump --that way everyone in the arena and watching on tv can hear it and even the skater -
and know if they ur they why don't the judges show exactly the audience why they ur --pinpoint slowmo- it not only to the skater but to the audience instead of just the commentators and saying oh- it was ur and downgraded.
people don't know and i look it was ilffy--just like flatts triple triple in the long --ashley lutz in the short--
she had a few more but she and rachel hid them well enough by landing more solid and cutting off the flow of the landing. miria wiggled her landings too much.
also why didn't ur sasha jumps they judges should tell the audience and explain why one definetly two-footed and ur didn't get downgraded and the other didn't
but i hate to bring it up--but miria -asian the other girls white--
i could also go on about other reasons but i won't,
i understand-still don't like--you complained against caroline zhang--now it is happeing to mirai.
little-but the little mistakes of some get overlooked especially by white girls vs little mistakes of others don't get overlooked-

 

[Blades of Passion]

This is the mistake I made when I posted the stills. You can tell nothing from them. You need to post a slo mo vidoe. I looked and Racheal is at less than 1/4 pre-rotated on take off. Her landing looked to be about 1/8 -1/4 UR

No, you can definitely see things from stills. Many of Rachael's jumps were borderline rotated. And, again, her 3-3's should not have been ratified if Mirai's wasn't.

What you say about pre-rotation is part of the problem - CoP does not define the rotation of a jump.

I think that others are correct in that the judges may be critical if you are 1/2 turn pre rotated (perhaps more if you look at her entire body which is what the panel may see in regular motion) on take off and 1/4 on landing then you are missing 3/4 of a turn in the air and your triple is 2-1/4 turns in the air. Sounds under rotated to me but I am not a techincal controller.

All jumps pre-rotate up to half a turn.

 

[janetfan]

No, you can definitely see things from stills. Many of Rachael's jumps were borderline rotated. And, again, her 3-3's should not have been ratified if Mirai's wasn't.

What you say about pre-rotation is part of the problem - CoP does not define the rotation of a jump.



All jumps pre-rotate up to half a turn.

Thanks for those comments BOP, especially regarding the pre-rotation issue.

 

[Mathman]

Wendy Enzmann was the technical controller and Troy Goldstein was the assistant technical specialist.

Do you have any conspiracy theories based on anything that happened in the last 30 years about why those two officials would go along with a plot to enforce this agenda you've imagined?

I can prove that Wendy Enzmann was not involved. She was a judge in the 2008 U.S. Nationals men's competion, where Lysacek (Frank Carroll's student) beat Johnny Weir on a tie-breaker.

Wendy did everything she could to advance the fortunes of Lysacek. She was one of only two judges that gave Weir negative GOE on his triple flip in the short program. And she was one of only two judges who gave Lysacek only a -1 (instead of -2) on his 4T+3T.

Then she slyly tried to cover her tracks by being the only judge to give Weir a +3 on his straight line step sequence, but she didn't fool me!

As for Troy Goldstein, he competed at 1993 U.S. Nationals in men's and also in both pairs and dance (with his sister, Dawn. They got tenth in pairs.) He did not compete in ladies. Therefore he is clearly not competent to serve as a tech specialist in the ladies' discipline, and shoiuld be replaced by Scott Hamilton. :yes:

JUST JOKING, Y'ALL.

 

[janetfan]

I can prove that Wendy Enzmann was not involved. She was a judge in the 2008 U.S. Nationals men's competion, where Lysacek (Frank Carroll's student) beat Johnny Weir on a tie-breaker.

Wendy did everything she could to advance the fortunes of Lysacek. She was one of only two judges that gave Weir negative GOE on his triple flip in the short program. And she was one of only two judges who gave Lysacek only a -1 (instead of -2) on his 4T+3T.

Then she slyly tried to cover her tracks by being the only judge to give Weir a +3 on his straight line step sequence, but she didn't fool me!

As for Troy Goldstein, he competed at 1993 U.S. Nationals in men's and also in both pairs and dance (with his sister, Dawn. They got tenth in pairs.) He did not compete in ladies. Therefore he is clearly not competent to serve as a tech specialist in the ladies' discipline, and shoiuld be replaced by Scott Hamilton. :yes:

JUST JOKING, Y'ALL.

Made me laugh and sorry if i have caused any bad feeling over this.

Go Rachael..........and Go Mirai.......

 

[Blades of Passion]

If the tech specialists are equally picky, Mirai's flip would be downgraded, Rachael's 3toe would be downgraded and Rachael would still win. Mirai would stay home.

No, Mirai's Flip was great.

If the tech specialists were equally picky, Flatt would have been downgraded on the 3Toe and 3Lutz in the SP and the 3Toe and both 3Lutzes in the LP.

Even Scott Hamilton in real-time could tell that Flatt's Lutzes were not perfect. Every time she did one (in both the SP and LP) he would say "Triple Luuuuuuuuuuuuuutz", with that kind of tone that tells you the skater barely pulled it off.

I personally think that between both Flatt and Mirai, only Mirai's final 3Toe should have been downgraded. I'm very skeptical of Flatt's 3-3, she still pre-rotates more than she should, but I would be nice and give them to her because they are looking a little better than they used to.

 

[gfskater]

All jumps pre-rotate up to half a turn.

If all jumps pre-rotate a half a turn they need to change the rules to allow it.

 

[gfskater]

No, you can definitely see things from stills. Many of Rachael's jumps were borderline rotated. And, again, her 3-3's should not have been ratified if Mirai's wasn't.

I posted stills the other day and people complaind that there was no point of reference to what the path of the skater was, I thought about it and realized it was a valid point. Without the video it is just a picure of a skate on the ice. You cannot tell it they are forward, backward, or sideways.

 

[gfskater]

I thought this new system was supposed to eliminate controversy and the possibility of favoring sertain skaters. Why not just go back to 6.0 and set the skaters free!

 

[Blades of Passion]

If all jumps pre-rotate a half a turn they need to change the rules to allow it.

CoP doesn't have a rule that really defines pre-rotation in the first place. They need to have one.

I posted stills the other day and people complaind that there was no point of reference to what the path of the skater was, I thought about it and realized it was a valid point. Without the video it is just a picure of a skate on the ice. You cannot tell it they are forward, backward, or sideways.

The still I posted pretty clearly shows you where the takeoff for the jump started. Obviously slow-mo is better, but I also posted the link to Rachael's SP here that shows slow-mo of her Lutz.

 

[Mafke]

My opinion: For the period of roughly 89-2004 skating fans were living under the polite illusion that top female skaters, who tend to have not much upper body strength, could rotate 2 and 3/4 turns in the air consistently 6 or 7 times per long program.

For some reason ISU has decided to explode this myth by punishing 'underrotations' to an insane degree and brining on more and more precise technologies to prove that very few of even the top females can rotate jumps the way that judges think they should be rotated. (whether the skaters or judges are wrong is yet to be determined).

In the process they're alienating many oldtime fans (like me) who more or less refuse to watch ladies competitions anymore since the phantom of inconsistent UR calls effectively randomizes the results of too many skaters at the top of the leaderboard. My best guess is they're trying to eliminate the ladies competition by making it seem like an inferior version of mens skating.

If you want ladies who can fully rotate jumps you're lookig at lots fewer fairy-like wraiths and lots more Flatt-like skaters (doesn't bother me, I think she's horribly underrated and I enjoy her particular kind of style).

My prediction: The more attention is paid to underrotation among ladies the more underrotation calls there'll be which has very little to do with overall skating skills or jumping ability.

It'll be interesting to see how this all works out.

 

[Figure88]

My prediction: The more attention is paid to underrotation among ladies the more underrotation calls there'll be which has very little to do with overall skating skills or jumping ability.
.

Underrotations have very little to do with jumping ability or skating skills? Then why is there a distinction between triples and doubles and why is does executing the former garner more points than the latter?

Secondly, there are also skating fans who would be equally turned off by a sport that rewards skaters with cheated technique. There is no sense of integrity in a sport like that. I think CoP system is in beginning stages. By addressing the problems that have plagued ice skating for decades, it will incentivize coaches to train their young skaters correctly. In the long run, ice skating will reap the benefits.

 

[gfskater]

CoP doesn't have a rule that really defines pre-rotation in the first place. They need to have one.

Look at the middle of page 14 of this ISU document.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf

 

[Moxie]

Umm, I'm going to say no. And they'd do her no favors by ignoring it when she has the same problem on the international scene.

But I do hope Mirai doesn't develop a mental block on the issue. It would be terrible if she dropped some jumps the way Mao seems to be doing.

 

[Mafke]

Underrotations have very little to do with jumping ability or skating skills? Then why is there a distinction between triples and doubles and why is does executing the former garner more points than the latter?

Well, technically underrotations have to do with time in the air when the blade isn't touching the ice, so yes, they have little to do with skating skills.

I think that what ladies skaters have traditionally done and gotten credit (quite rightly) for as triples have very often not really involved 2.34 revolutions of air time.

That doesn't bother me, or make me enjoy ladies programs less or make me think of ladies skating as diluted mens skating. Indeed what I look for in jump landings is a _controlled_ back outside edge which many reputed underrotated jumps have and which many fully rotated jumps (that don't get -GOE) do not have. Landing and spinning in the air are two separate skills.

But don't let me confuse you, go ahead and expect skaters with physiques like Nagasu to do the same jumps as skaters with physiques like Joubert or Plushenko (or for that matter Harding or Flatt). But don't expect ladies skating to be a ratings magnet as long as your preferences are in effect.

 

[FlattFan]

No, Mirai's Flip was great.

If the tech specialists were equally picky, Flatt would have been downgraded on the 3Toe and 3Lutz in the SP and the 3Toe and both 3Lutzes in the LP.

Even Scott Hamilton in real-time could tell that Flatt's Lutzes were not perfect. Every time she did one (in both the SP and LP) he would say "Triple Luuuuuuuuuuuuuutz", with that kind of tone that tells you the skater barely pulled it off.

I personally think that between both Flatt and Mirai, only Mirai's final 3Toe should have been downgraded. I'm very skeptical of Flatt's 3-3, she still pre-rotates more than she should, but I would be nice and give them to her because they are looking a little better than they used to.

Can someone post a slow mo of Mirai's 3flip? The rotation might be short, if it "might be" then it's definitely not great.

About Scott's tone on Rachael's jumps. Well, she barely pulled it off everytime but still managed to land them everytime. So it might just be Scott's tone and has nothing to do with a skater. If it's actually problematic, she would be cleaning the ice like Alissa.

 

[janetfan]

Can someone post a slow mo of Mirai's 3flip? The rotation might be short, if it "might be" then it's definitely not great.

About Scott's tone on Rachael's jumps. Well, she barely pulled it off everytime but still managed to land them everytime. So it might just be Scott's tone and has nothing to do with a skater. If it's actually problematic, she would be cleaning the ice like Alissa.

Al but one of Mirai's jumps had a vey clean looking landing and it is still mysterious to me how she had a nice flow out of them since that is not so typical for ur'ed jumps,

Maybe someone could explain that part. Does it depend on type of jump?

I think that is part of the problem here because Mirai's jumps looked better than Rachaels. Her landings were so calm, steady and confident looking.