Mirai's Triple Lutz Unfairly Downgraded?

[gfskater]

Look at the middle of page 14 of this ISU document.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf

Doe anyone know how the detaied score sheet is marked for the cheated take off as stated in the docement referenced above? Do they use the same symbol "<" that they use for cheated landing (also in that document)?

I only wonder because the cheat on take off to me looks clearly backward. You can see it clearly in regular motion if you look. You don't even need slow motion.

Also, everyone is focusing on the blade. If you look her body and shoulders are even further rotated.

Everyone is focusing on the 1/4 turn landing. The pre rotation on take off is much greater than the short rotation on the landing. Perhaps that is what the mark is for.

 

[Mafke]

Not my final words on the subject, but my final words for the moment:

If I absolutely hated skating (especially ladies skating) and wanted it to disappear from the tv screens of the world I couldn't think of a more diabolical method than the current ever stricter enforcement of 'underroation' rules.

 

[gfskater]

Can someone post a slow mo of Mirai's 3flip? The rotation might be short, if it "might be" then it's definitely not great.

I think a better thing to do would be to create a slo mo of Rachaels 3Lz.

After reading page 14 of the "ISU Handbook for Technical Controllers" I have a suspicion that the < mark is for cheated take off and not cheated landing.

It would be interesting to see Rachaels in slo motion since it was not downgraded. Lets compare apples to apples. If I can find a clear video I will create the slo mo.

 

[Figure88]

Well, technically underrotations have to do with time in the air when the blade isn't touching the ice, so yes, they have little to do with skating skills.

I think that what ladies skaters have traditionally done and gotten credit (quite rightly) for as triples have very often not really involved 2.34 revolutions of air time.

Well, if executing clean triples have have little to do with skating skills, then a heck of a lot of ladies would be able to do them with little or no effort and under-rotations wouldn't even be an issue.

 

[FlattFan]

Al but one of Mirai's jumps had a vey clean looking landing and it is still mysterious to me how she had a nice flow out of them since that is not so typical for ur'ed jumps,

Maybe someone could explain that part. Does it depend on type of jump?

I think that is part of the problem here because Mirai's jumps looked better than Rachaels. Her landings were so calm, steady and confident looking.

Yukari Nakano has nice flow out of her triple axel at world 2008, nice flow out of her triple flip. Look even more secured than Mirai's. Those are smacked with a downgrade.

Miki Ando at the 2008 GPF had maybe 4-5 downgrades on jumps that looked really powerful, huge, and a lot of flow.

It's not how you look landing, it's where you land.

Rachael jumps were replayed in the SP, they looked fully rotated. In the long program, I recorded it on HD, and rewatched everything and she looks about 1/8-1/4 short. But she's not known for UR, so they will give them to her.

Mirai has a history of URs, and all of her jumps will be scrutinized here, in China, and definitely will be in Vancouver.

 

[Mafke]

Well, if executing clean triples have have little to do with skating skills, then a heck of a lot of ladies would be able to do them with little or no effort and under-rotations wouldn't even be an issue.

Skating skills are only relevant when skate touches ice. Spinning in the air is an athletic skill, especially related to upper body strength. Controlling the landing ("cheated" or not) is a skating skill and many 'underrotated' jumps show more skating skills than lots of fully rotated ones that get more points.

 

[janetfan]

Rachael jumps were replayed in the SP, they looked fully rotated. In the long program, I recorded it on HD, and rewatched everything and she looks about 1/8-1/4 short. But she's not known for UR, so they will give them to her.

Mirai has a history of URs, and all of her jumps will be scrutinized here, in China, and definitely will be in Vancouver.

So may I ask if you think this judging by reputation is fair and good for skating?

We see the same thing with big jumpers when they are on. Their pcs go through the roof whteher they had good artistry or not.

I think this type of judging is not good for skating. Giving certain skaters the benefit of the doubt and pre-juding others actually violates a judges oath to be fair and unbiased.

The problem with pcs given so liberally to better known skaters falls into this category as well.

I think CoP has unintentionally made skating less of a sport even though that was not it's intention.

 

[FlattFan]

I think a better thing to do would be to create a slo mo of Rachaels 3Lz.

After reading page 14 of the "ISU Handbook for Technical Controllers" I have a suspicion that the < mark is for cheated take off and not cheated landing.

It would be interesting to see Rachaels in slo motion since it was not downgraded. Lets compare apples to apples. If I can find a clear video I will create the slo mo.

Her long program. Unfortunately, NBC showed the worst angle possible. Although it showed she's doing a true lutz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SqfpsyvsD5M

I think you need to look at the SP to see if she did UR.

 

[FlattFan]

So may I ask if you think this judging by reputation is fair and good for skating?

We see the same thing with big jumpers when they are on. Their pcs go through the roof whteher they had good artistry or not.

The problem with pcs given so liberally to better known skaters falls into this category as well.

I think CoP has unintentionally made skating less of a sport even though that was not it's intention.

But you get a reputation for a reason. If Mirai didn't UR all the times, she wouldn't be in that situation.
Miki Ando, a former world champion, URed a few times and now they're looking at her every jumps.
It's not just Mirai. It can happen to everyone. So make sure you rotate the last few degrees.

Rachael is not even at Miki Ando level so you know international judges won't give her a break when it comes to UR. They never ding her for a reason: she rotated her jumps.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Look at the middle of page 14 of this ISU document.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-197593-214816-125742-0-file,00.pdf

Yes, I've seen it. The rules don't talk about pre-rotation. The rules only think about jumps in terms of rotation from the point at which the takeoff supposedly began, not the point at which the skates have left the ice.

 

[dorispulaski]

Al but one of Mirai's jumps had a vey clean looking landing and it is still mysterious to me how she had a nice flow out of them since that is not so typical for ur'ed jumps,

Maybe someone could explain that part. Does it depend on type of jump?

I think that is part of the problem here because Mirai's jumps looked better than Rachaels. Her landings were so calm, steady and confident looking.

Excessive prerotation has been dinged for a long time, long before COP. The most consistent US lady for doing a 3t/3t was Amber Corwin, and yet Amber was always scored low. One reason is that her second 3t was so far prerotated (nearly one half turn) that it was termed a 'toe axel'. Amber's landings were often OK-it was the takeoff.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Rachael is not even at Miki Ando level so you know international judges won't give her a break when it comes to UR. They never ding her for a reason: she rotated her jumps.

Rachael has been downgraded many times on her 3-3 by international judges, not sure what you're talking about.

Mirai was dinged so much for underrotation in the 2008-2009 season because of the problems she was going through with her growth spurt and everything else. She didn't underrotate more than 1/4 turn very many times this year, but the judges have been incredibly hard on her anyway.

FYI, the 3Toe that Mirai did in her 2Axel-3Toe was better than any 3Toe Rachael Flatt has ever done in her 3-3 attempts.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Excessive prerotation has been dinged for a long time, long before COP. The most consistent US lady for doing a 3t/3t was Amber Corwin, and yet Amber was always scored low. One reason is that her second 3t was so far prerotated (nearly one half turn) that it was termed a 'toe axel'. Amber's landings were often OK-it was the takeoff.

Pre-rotating on the skating foot and the picking foot are two different problems when it comes to toe jumps. The skating foot shouldn't be pre-rotating much but the picking foot can pre-rotate up to half a turn.

Mirai doesn't toe-axel.

 

[janetfan]

Excessive prerotation has been dinged for a long time, long before COP. The most consistent US lady for doing a 3t/3t was Amber Corwin, and yet Amber was always scored low. One reason is that her second 3t was so far prerotated (nearly one half turn) that it was termed a 'toe axel'. Amber's landings were often OK-it was the takeoff.

There is a simultaneous discussion going on here that is stating pretty clearly that pre-rotations are not that well defined in the current IJS.

Are you saying that Mirai is getting dinged for UR's due to excessive pre-rotation?

If the rule is not that well defined this sounds a bit odd - and more like the favoritism issue running through the board.

The more I watch Mirai's LP the better it looks to me.

I recall jenny Kirk going a bit berserk about COC when the same thing happened to Mirai. After executing very acceptable jumps in her SP the judges decided she forgot how to jump 48 hours later and dinged the same jumps (which Jenny claimed looked suspiciously similar) for UR's.

 

[dorispulaski]

All I know is that both the 3t after the 2A looked questionable to me real time, as did the 3t by itself. If I were the tech caller, I would have reviewed both of them. I didn't notice the lutz real time. And they showed the slomo on the recap, and the jumps were UR, all 3

If a casual fan like myself can spot 2 of the problems, I can well believe that a skilled tech specialist will get all 3., especially when international callers have been seeing this all year. No conspiracy theories are needed.

And I'm glad to see bad technique getting dinged Bad technique has bad effects on these kids' health and bodies. Irina Slutskaya, who had excellent jump technique, had a long career without hip injury, for example. Tara Lipinski is the sad example the other way.


.

 

[FlattFan]

Rachael has been downgraded many times on her 3-3 by international judges, not sure what you're talking about.

Mirai was dinged so much for underrotation in the 2008-2009 season because of the problems she was going through with her growth spurt and everything else. She didn't underrotate more than 1/4 turn very many times this year, but the judges have been incredibly hard on her anyway.

FYI, the 3Toe that Mirai did in her 2Axel-3Toe was better than any 3Toe Rachael Flatt has ever done in her 3-3 attempts.

The 3T were downgraded many times, but not this season.
In slowmo, they were fully rotated in the SP.

In the LP, the camera cut off her landing blade so I don't know why people think she URed that one. You can't prove one way or another.

FYI, the 3Toe Mirai did was UR in slow mo. The 3Toe Rachael did in the SP was not UR in slow mo. What do you mean better? better flow? sure. Better rotation, Not even close.

 

[FlattFan]

I recall jenny Kirk going a bit berserk about COC when the same thing happened to Mirai. After executing very acceptable jumps in her SP the judges decided she forgot how to jump 48 hours later and dinged the same jumps (which Jenny claimed looked suspiciously similar) for UR's.

Of course an 89degree short vs. a 91degree short looked suspiciously similar. Just saying Jenny Kirk is an idiot if she's using that argument for UR/non-UR.

 

[janetfan]

All I know is that both the 3t after the 2A looked questionable to me real time, as did the 3t by itself. If I were the tech caller, I would have reviewed both of them. I didn't notice the lutz real time. And they showed the slomo on the recap, and the jumps were UR, all 3

If a casual fan like myself can spot 2 of the problems, I can well believe that a skilled tech specialist will get all 3., especially when international callers have been seeing this all year. No conspiracy theories are needed.

And I'm glad to see bad technique getting dinged Bad technique has bad effects on these kids' health and bodies. Irina Slutskaya, who had excellent jump technique, had a long career without hip injury, for example. Tara Lipinski is the sad example the other way.


.

I always thought Yagudin and Michelle were known for strong technique - and they both limped away from the sport with badly injured bodies.

Yuna has been described as having perfect jumping technique yet she struggled at 16 and 17 with inuries.

It has been said Mao has less than perfet jumping technique, and that she reportedly practices very demanding 3A's for endless hours and yet she appears to be immune to injuries.

Go figure.........

This is a strange sport anymore. I watch it through older 6.0 eyes - and maybe like Scott - I can't help myself and still judge it with 6.0 rules.

 

[gfskater]

Yes, I've seen it. The rules don't talk about pre-rotation. The rules only think about jumps in terms of rotation from the point at which the takeoff supposedly began, not the point at which the skates have left the ice.

I am not sure what you mean. Can I tell my daughter it is OK to leave the ice forward like Mirai in the slow motion video at the begining of this thread.

For that matter can she spin around a full rotation on the ice and then leave the ice as long as the point where she begins is backward?

 

[SkatingAnalyst]

Violating the Principles

There is not much argument about cheated take-off in men's skating.
Because, most men are able to perform triple jumps without much difficulty.

The problem with ladies is...the triple jumps are very difficult to execute.
That is why some of them learned bad technique to be able to perform...
competitive triple jumps.

Most likely, Mirai knows how to perform the toe jumps with right technique.
She might have given up the right technique because she just couldn't do it.

The problem is... it is violating the principals of the jumps.

In Golf, if the ball lands beyond white line...it's called out of bound...2 stroke
penalty.
In Tennis if you step on base line while serving...it's called foot fault.

Every sport has it's LINE that players must not violate.

Cheated take-off rule has an imaginary line... skaters will get dinged if
they cross and make the backward jump...a forward jump.

Skaters who violate this rule is... fully intentional...It's a CHEATING.

Not to mention about the eye-deceiving lightness & easiness to spectators
because of less rotations & difficulties.

Mirai-fans cannot complain even if the judges downgrade all of her toe jumps
as long as Mirai uses the cheating technique.