I thought Shoma Uno won Jr Worlds last year.
Mishin's opinion on components based on Jin
- Thread starter plushyfan
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I thought Shoma Uno won Jr Worlds last year.
At any rate, I don't think the system should change because 1 skater 1 competition.
Yeah, Jin can get some pretty high TES. How consistently? Also, currently, that skore would have put him at 4th at Worlds 2015 - he wouldnt even medal.
Also, at CoC, the skores he got placed him correctly - i guess most agree it was not enough for gold (even with his issues, Javi was better), and higher than bronze.
If he keeps getting reasonable placements as compared to other skaters, i dont see a blatant need to change the system right now.
Imho, changes will only be needed if several skaters keep getting over 100 TES consistently. That is not happening yet, not by any close - the best skaters get close to it, yes, but don't pass it by significant amounts. Same happens with PCs - some men get close to 100, but nobody really hitting perfect 100s. Sounds like it is working well right now, and doesn't need a factoring change yet.
Yeah, if the top guys start hitting 100 every competition, time to add extra 10% PCs in there.
Yeah, Jin can get some pretty high TES. How consistently? Also, currently, that skore would have put him at 4th at Worlds 2015 - he wouldnt even medal.
Also, at CoC, the skores he got placed him correctly - i guess most agree it was not enough for gold (even with his issues, Javi was better), and higher than bronze.
If he keeps getting reasonable placements as compared to other skaters, i dont see a blatant need to change the system right now.
Imho, changes will only be needed if several skaters keep getting over 100 TES consistently. That is not happening yet, not by any close - the best skaters get close to it, yes, but don't pass it by significant amounts. Same happens with PCs - some men get close to 100, but nobody really hitting perfect 100s. Sounds like it is working well right now, and doesn't need a factoring change yet.
Yeah, if the top guys start hitting 100 every competition, time to add extra 10% PCs in there.
Sorry y'all. I meant to write he won silver overall, but somehow it didn't show up in the post. It's been corrected
My basic point doesn't change though. To maintain that level of technical execution for a long season is challenging, no matter how fit you are. I guess if Boyang does manage to perform at a high level consistently getting 100 PCS with only 73 PCS then perhaps we can revisit. But I feel it's a bit of a panic button after he performed well at one competition.
ETA: I agree with your post above, moriel.
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- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
Mrs P as you describe him, Jin is kind of the anti-Jason - high risk, high reward strategies, but in opposite directions.
Yes, indeed. In fact, this was best illustrated when they went against each other back in 2012, at JGP Courchavel (France). Boyang Jin beat Jason handily with 3As and a quad in the FS. Jason did not even have his 3A then and had some other TES issues (lutz edge call/spin issues in the SP and .
SP:
Boyang 62.98 (36.80/26.18), 1st
Jason 59.70 (28.95/30.38) 3rd
FS:
Boyang: 131.15 (74.65/56.50) 1st
Jason : 126.58 (59.62/66.86) 2n3
Boyang beat Jason by having a bigger gap in TES than Jason had in PCS.
Jason ended up beating Boyang at Jr. Worlds later that season. He placed 2nd and Boyang placed 5th. Jason had his 3A by then.
SP
Jason: 70.06 (36.62/33.44) 3rd
Boyang: 62.82 (36.08/27.74) 6th
FS
Jason: 154.09 (81.03/73.06) 1st (2nd overall)
Boyang: 129.76 (69.98/59.78) 4th (5th overall)
NHK Trophy will be their first head-to-head match up (along with Yuzuru, et al.) since 2013 Jr. Worlds. It will be really interesting to watch.
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- Feb 6, 2014
Because of low PCS I don't think Boyang can get near top 3 this season (Yuzu, Patrick, Javi in no matter what order), even with a clean FS. And to me, this is ok. His jumps are amazing, but I don't enjoy his performances. Maybe it's just me, but I could watch him jumping without any choreography and it would be no difference. 
It's probably unfair to compare him to the top3 skaters because of experience or age, but ...just look at Shoma. He skates with so much passion that he makes me get emotional everytime I watch his FS even though his components are still not "there". And it will be quite sad for me to see this season Boyang placed higher than Shoma even though I appreciate Boyang a lot for his TES.
It's probably unfair to compare him to the top3 skaters because of experience or age, but ...just look at Shoma. He skates with so much passion that he makes me get emotional everytime I watch his FS even though his components are still not "there". And it will be quite sad for me to see this season Boyang placed higher than Shoma even though I appreciate Boyang a lot for his TES.
- Joined
- Feb 25, 2014
Jin can be expected to score much higher than he did at COC as it was his Senior GP debut after all. PCS may take some time to improve but he has time at 18. GOE may increase much this very season.
Patrick was the original COP baby star and in just a few years since his rise, we have had Hanyu and now Jin. Who's to say Jin will be an isolated exception as far as jumping abilities go? Will ISU reconsider and restructure the scoring system?
I would very much like to know Plushenko's and Joubert's thoughts on Jin's COC stunner of a debut.
Not much. Plush will like the quads but he's a Yuzu fanboy so he won't say anything over the top about Jin (or any other skaters)...
Because of low PCS I don't think Boyang can get near top 3 this season (Yuzu, Patrick, Javi in no matter what order), even with a clean FS. And to me, this is ok. His jumps are amazing, but I don't enjoy his performances. Maybe it's just me, but I could watch him jumping without any choreography and it would be no difference.
It's probably unfair to compare him to the top3 skaters because of experience or age, but ...just look at Shoma. He skates with so much passion that he makes me get emotional everytime I watch his FS even though his components are still not "there". And it will be quite sad for me to see this season Boyang placed higher than Shoma even though I appreciate Boyang a lot for his TES.
ETA: Oh you mean if he ends up placing higher than Shoma later on in the season.
I do think Shoma has a good buffer:
Shoma Uno, Skate America FS: 176.75 (92.35/84.30)
4t,3A, 3A-3T//3Lo, 3S, 4T-2T, 3Z, 2A-1Lo-3F
two quads,7 triples (including 2 3A)
Boyang Jin, Cup of China FS: 171.18 (99.60/72.58)
4Z, 4S, 3A-1L-3S//4T-2T, 4T, 3Z-3T, 3A, 3F,
four quads, 6 triples (including 2 3A)
So Boyang did TWICE the quads but still scored below Shoma.
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- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
I don't see the problem. If Jin earns stratospheric TES and OK PCS he will win. If Hanyu keeps it close in TES and scores much higher PCS then Hanyu will win. If someone else comes along and outscores them both in total points, then the other guy will win.
The solution is easy: if your rival ups his score and you want to match him, up yours.
The solution is easy: if your rival ups his score and you want to match him, up yours.
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- Nov 19, 2010
The question is: Is it possible to have very high PCS with so many quads in the program?
Chan started it, including quads in intricate program and keeping the quality. Since then, there are skaters able to do 3 quads and keep up a high PCS. Is it ever going to be possible with 5 well executed quads? How much choreography has to make way for quad entries? How much energy will be left for speedy complex step sequences and transitions? Maybe the two sides of the balance scale can't be too lopsided after all.
Chan started it, including quads in intricate program and keeping the quality. Since then, there are skaters able to do 3 quads and keep up a high PCS. Is it ever going to be possible with 5 well executed quads? How much choreography has to make way for quad entries? How much energy will be left for speedy complex step sequences and transitions? Maybe the two sides of the balance scale can't be too lopsided after all.
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- Aug 8, 2009
I agree. I saw Boyang's program, and I was not that enamoured. He was slow, and particularly in the second-half of the program, I kept on expecting him to fall on his jumps because his setup speed was so slow. I think he will not be able to maintain his boyish physique and so his strategy will have to change soon.
I do hope that Boyang's case will force judges to mark PCS super-accurately across the board.
As for Javier, yes, his skating skill wasn't that great but the choreography of that program is really, really good, and he still was much better than Boyang.
- Joined
- Feb 10, 2014
I don't see the problem. If Jin earns stratospheric TES and OK PCS he will win. If Hanyu keeps it close in TES and scores much higher PCS then Hanyu will win. If someone else comes along and outscores them both in total points, then the other guy will win.
The solution is easy: if your rival ups his score and you want to match him, up yours.
I guess that's okay if the only two skaters competing are Jin and Hanyu and if you're okay with pure tech driving everything. What about others? Even 2 quads in a FS likely won't be enough to compete for 1st in any comp. Look at Javi here: the only reason he won, even with inflated PCS, is because Jin got about 9 points of negative GOE. The playing field was lopsided before, but it's far more so now.
Of course, as Mrs P says, Jin may not be able to sustain it. But then again, he might.
That is not even the issue for Mishin, i think. Not about Jin winning or Jin sustaining his TES. Its more of a perspective of what happens if there will be more Jins around.
Basically what happens when men will start hitting over 100 TES frequently (and that will start happening if someone keeps pushing it)? Because PCs in FS only go up to 100. Now, it is roughly balanced - 90s are exceptional PCs and exceptional TES. Now if Exceptional TES is lets say 120, exceptional PCs will be still 90s. Basically, tech components will have a higher value relative to PCs, unlike now, when its about 1-1. So either figure skating will get less artistical and more technical, or they will have to change the PCs factor to balance it out.
Basically what happens when men will start hitting over 100 TES frequently (and that will start happening if someone keeps pushing it)? Because PCs in FS only go up to 100. Now, it is roughly balanced - 90s are exceptional PCs and exceptional TES. Now if Exceptional TES is lets say 120, exceptional PCs will be still 90s. Basically, tech components will have a higher value relative to PCs, unlike now, when its about 1-1. So either figure skating will get less artistical and more technical, or they will have to change the PCs factor to balance it out.
- Joined
- Nov 19, 2010
Ah, you put it nicely what I tried to say.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Or maybe they should reduce the TES. Get rid of giving out Positive GOE, instead mark jumps like they mark figure in the old days, poor jumps get -4 or -3 GOE, ok jumps get -2 or -1 GOE, and only great jumps with difficult transitions deserve full BV, apply same thing for spins.
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- Jun 21, 2003
I still don't see the problem. If Jin can score more points than anyone else, then he will always win. Until someone rises up to challenge him.
It's like saying it's no fair that Usain Bolt can run faster than everyone else. We need to change the rules to give others a chance.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
The system is unbalanced.
Image it, you can never reach 100 PCS. But you can reach 120 TES. then in that case it really looks unbalance because PCS you have maxed it out but TES you can go further. There is no higher 100 for PCS, but there is higher for TES. So the system need to be adjusted.
Either you lower the GOE in general, to lower the TES, or you adjust so PCS will become 1:1 more with the TES.
Image it, you can never reach 100 PCS. But you can reach 120 TES. then in that case it really looks unbalance because PCS you have maxed it out but TES you can go further. There is no higher 100 for PCS, but there is higher for TES. So the system need to be adjusted.
Either you lower the GOE in general, to lower the TES, or you adjust so PCS will become 1:1 more with the TES.
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- Feb 10, 2014
I don't really see running as comparable to FS. I value artistry in FS as much as technique and athleticism. I don't want to see pure TES kill artistry and in so doing make it impossible for others to win.
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- Jul 9, 2014
Aren't any of you old enough to remember Tonya and Midori? I haven't seen enough of this kid to give a real opinion yet. But, I'll take Patrick Chan with two quads and spectacular skating skills over any jumping bean without thinking twice. Skating is a sport but, it's also an art and if they want to have "Jump Off" competitions, I'm all for it. I don't mind if someone does 3 quads and gets a big score, as long as Ashley and Tuk can wink and blow kisses and get huge PCS scores...Okaaay!:dance:
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- Feb 25, 2014
I think it's generally "okay" right now. With balanced skaters like Patrick, Yuzu, Javi, Denis, Shoma, even Jason on his good days, you still need good TES and good PCS to win, particularly when against one or more of these guys. When a "good" or "great" score for the majority of guys is in the 270s (at most) and an average score is in the 250s, the top guys still rely on the PCS to carry them. When they can get top scores approaching 300, that's something like a 3-fall advantage in some cases. In the end, isn't a "good" program described as "well-balanced"?
