More Sasha Cohen Updates

[euterpe]

Sasha's jumps are her weakest point. She doesn't have a true lutz (which she herself has admitted), and it is impossible to distinguish her lutz from her flip--they are executed almost exactly the same. She's also had problems with her 3T as well. Last season, most of her falls were on that jump. It seems it's the pick jumps that give her the most trouble.

Sasha has never had a clean FS in any major competition (National, Worlds, Olympics) over the past 4 years. I think it's the lack of security in her jumps that causes her to make those inevitable mistakes.

 

[SkateFan4Life]

Lots of skaters have won GP events with falls, including Cohen and Kwan in past years. But GPs are early season events when none of the skaters are comfortable with their new programs.

But a skater can't expect to win a medal at Worlds with a two-fall program unless the competition is a veritable splatfest, and that isn't a common happening at Worlds among top skaters.

Absolutely true. Sasha Cohen won a number of GP events with inperfect programs, but she was able to do so because the field was relatively weak, and none of the other skaters were at their peak, either.

At Worlds, however, your program really should be as close to perfect as possible. Enough time has passed to iron out the wrinkles and to make the program one that is skated on auto pilot. If you fall twice in the long program, it's a given that you won't win a World title, not unless the rest of the field skates just as poorly. :sheesh:

Sasha Cohen is a tremendouly talented skater, but she still hasn't proved that she can compete at Worlds (and at Nationals, too) without messing up her long program. If she can manage to do that, the sky's the limit, IMHO.

 

[Rgirl]

***Note: My gosh, the skating world should be overjoyed to have someone of Sasha Cohen's caliber on the scene, whom is gifted not only artistically but athletically as well. Thus, my admiration & respect, and also my fandom.***

ITA. In fact I agree with much of your well-written post. I saw some significant improvements in Cohen's jump technique after she worked with Wagner last season, especially at Nats and Worlds, despite the falls (typical when working on jump technique -- learning curve). Even in her tight and marred World's LP performance, the jumps had lost most of the herky-jerky quality they'd had previously and had gained better edge control on the landings--when she was landing them. Also, during the QR, Sasha was the hallmark of consistency, looking like a completely different skater, as Joe pointed out often until we were able to see the QR televised.

I agree with Shine (and Sasha) that she needs to get her Lutz, but I see her other jumps as fine since being with RW, except for the nerves in high pressure situations. With Tarasova, she seemed to have a lot of problems with two-footing, wonky landings, no-true-Lutz, and falls that seemed to just crumple underneath her for no reason. As for consistency, right now the only skater who has consistently skated no-fall programs over an entire season (not to mention many seasons), GP and all, is Michelle.

Arakawa, whom I love, was a lot more inconsistent than Sasha was last season. The crucial difference was that Shizza put down the skate of her life with her Worlds LP while Sasha tightened up in RW's 2nd version of "Swan Lake," which was basically less than six weeks old. Not an excuse, since Sasha certainly rose to the occasion during the QR and could have in the LP. In this case I think it was a combination of too many versions of "SL" through the season and Nemesis Nerves under pressure.

Speaking of too many versions of "Swan Lake," because there were so many last season, I know I couldn't assess the overall quality of the choreography of her programs based on the seven distinctly different versions TAT and RW had her do of it last season:scratch:. The version she did at Trophee Lalique the best, IMO, with serpentine FW and a Level 3 combination spin.

I was so hoping RW would just keep the Trophee Lalique version with minor changes and help Sasha work on technique, endurance, and psyche for four months rather than all the music and choreographic changes. Then this year I hoped we'd be able to evaluate the choreography as it evolved with expected changes, upping the difficulty to peak at Worlds rather than the "now for something completely different" philosophy of last season, which granted, did involve a coaching change.

And kudos to you Nadine for this frank and insightful section:

I didn't like Sasha when she entered the scene, mainly b/c I was a huge Sarah Hughes Fan (still am btw; she is one of my all-time favorites). Also, didn't like the fact that she was being compared to another one of my all-time favorites, Oksana Baiul. Lastly, I thought she was stuck-up, pretentious, and mean, and was being overly catered to by the commentators while ignoring others (so I thought at the time). Now, in retrospect, I see how silly all that was (lol). However, I have to admit that my feelings never blinded me to the fact that she was an exceptional skater. And gradually I came to like her little by little, until one day (after Sarah Hughes left the eligible word) I just became a Fan.

I know as well as anybody that sometimes the cumulative effect of a skater makes it so that no matter how good s/he is as a skater and adored by millions of fans, you're still left feeling "blah" by that skater--even if it's with good reason. But we never know how a skater will evolve or how our perceptions of that skater might change. Can't tell you the number of times seeing a skater live made me do a positive 180. Anyway, just wanted to underscore that point.

Rockin' post
Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

(and Sasha)

(Why one doesn't put a smiley at the end of a parenthetical remark : p

...also no extra pts. for doing (triple-triples) in combination, not to mention 3/3 sequences get less pts. than when done alone/solo).

Still, I think they are worth doing because that's the only way you can do extra triples. IIRC you only get 6 jumping passes, and a triple-triple gets you quite a few more points than a triple-double. A sequence, too, although you don't get as much credit for the second jump, at least it lets you do more jumps overall.

But I agree with your main point that gaining a couple of points here and there for extra technical elements can easily be overwhelmed by the component scores.

MM

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

A true artist should be able to incorporate as many legal jumps into his/her program. If it becomes too busy with jumps because of the choreography or music, then it's time to rethink it.

Joe

 

[gkelly]

IIRC you only get 6 jumping passes, and a triple-triple gets you quite a few more points than a triple-double.

Seven, for ladies, but one of the jumps must be "an axel-type jump," so probably not a triple. An axel of some sort in combination or sequence with a triple could be another way for some skaters to meet the requirements and still include the required axel.

 

[Mathman]

Has anyone ever done that? A double-Axel/triple-something?

 

[ChiSk8Fan]

Double axel combinations with triple jumps

Has anyone ever done that? A double-Axel/triple-something?

My first post here! I can start here because I think I can actually remember something to contribute Kristi Yamaguchi had a double axel-triple toe loop combination in 1990, and Yuka Sato and Tara Lipinski used to do a double axel-half loop-triple salcow in their programs, in 1993 and 1996 respectively. Yoshie Onda has a double axel-triple toe loop combination in her program this year.

 

[jesslily]

Yoshie Onda did very well at NHK, clean program, much improved artistry, after she skated 2nd after Arakawa, she looked like she even thought being placed ahead of Arakawa.
At end Elena Sokolova got third and Yoshie Onda got forth. It's not that right. Sokolova popped, fell, but the music choice was good. She and her coach were both surprised that she was placed this high.

 

[Nadine]

Great Question!

Has anyone ever done that? A double-Axel/triple-something?

The only one I'm familiar with is 2A--1/2 loop (or 1/2 step)--3T, which was done by Sarah Hughes two times during the Fall season of 2001/2002 (once at the GPF that year). This was when she was trying to figure out how to do 7 triples with difficulty, finally settling on two 3/3s for the Olympics, instead of just one. And I must say that this sequence (i.e. 2A--1/2 step--3T) was a beauty (no lie)!

***Note: btw I have noticed that another favorite of mine, Yoshie Onda, has been doing it without any steps our halfs this season, making it that much more difficult (& gorgeous when done correctly) :agree: .***

Now I'd like to take a moment to talk, once again, about Sasha Cohen.....have been reviewing the tape I have of her 4S, that she did in practice @ 2001 SkateAmerica.....can't get over how absolutely beautiful it was (no lie). I honestly say that it's even better than the men -- perfect form & air position, not to mention dizzyingly fast, as well as Complete Full Rotations! In fact, it looks like she may even be able to do a quint one day if she so chooses, that's how great she is when it comes to rotation, she's so good that she actually has a problem "overrating", instead of underrotating.

That said, I'd honestly like to see Sasha go for the 4S again (for real). It looked so "easy" for her. In fact, she did them not once, but several times during practice per the commentators. Forget about the 3/3s, one 4S is equal to the former, and I truly believe that. Also, of course, throw in 5 solo triples (couple w/a double tacked on), to make it a complete program and show the judges that she can do them as well. Finally, have an "alternate" plan ready to go if she misses the 4S (btw she should be able to get at least a couple of pts. for it due to being completely rotated). However, if she misses, then tack on a 3S later on in the program as a back-up plan (making sure she has 6 triples completed all together). Still, 5 triples + 1 fully rotated 4S = phenomenal! JMHO.

***Note: I've been thinking that Sasha's small & compact physique is part of the reason why she's such a great jumper in terms of complete full rotation, and is why she is able to do a perfect 4S. Reminds me of two of the greatest jumpers of all time ~ Midori Ito & Elvis Stojko ~ except Sasha's somatype is more pleasing to the eye. JMHO. ***

Peace & Love, Nadine

 

[euterpe]

Peggy Fleming has often said that Sasha Cohen is the best practice skater in the world. She would do FS runthrough after runthrough, all 100% perfect, then go out on competition ice like a deer in the headlights, perform as if she were skating on eggshells, then make that inevitable mistake.

A practice quad is a practice quad. It isn't a performance quad, just as all the perfect practice runthroughs weren't the performance runthrough. Todd Eldredge had an 80% success rate with his practice quads, but in performance, he landed exactly one, once, in a minor pro-am event and was never able to do it again.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

What's with the quad and Sasha as being so important? If the CoP is working, I believe she will outclass all her competitors including IS, but landing all her jumps solidly are another matter. There is nothing about her jumps that can equal her extensions. If she cleans up the jump landings she'll be fine and no quad is necessary, but a 3x3 would be nice.

Joe

 

[Fossi]

I agree. Sasha focused too much on being the "first female" to land a quad, and her skating suffered. I don't know why she continues to discuss the quad, unless it's because of all the hype. She simply can not do this and keep her focus. She has a hard time skating clean, bless her, but she just can't do it. Why add more difficulty when she can't handle the triples, or a 3/3?

 

[Nadine]

Joesitz & Fossi...

I don't know, it's such an exotic jump, and heck, if one is capable of doing it, why not!?! (especially as there are only 2 women in the world capable of it; and only 1 of those is capable of complete full rotations)

I mean even you yourself, Joesitz, said earlier that a true artist will be able to incorporate as many jumps as is possible into a program. Likewise, I personally feel that a true competitor will also not settle for anything less, but rather will strive to reach his/her full capability/potential. And in Sasha Cohen's case she hasn't YET to attain that when it comes to the jumps. JMHO.

***Note: btw, in Sasha's case it can't hurt going for it, as she will get pts. for fully rotating it, even if she falls, which I expect to happen (but not always). Also, smart skaters always add an extra 3jump later on in the program if they miss it the first time (thinking of Michelle Kwan here btw; whom added the 3T at the end if she missed her 3T/3T combo.).***

Peace & Love, Nadine

EDITED TO ADD: btw, never say never! Even to your own kid, one should never say that s/he is not capable of something, and in this case it is wrong to say that Sasha is not capable of skating clean (b.s.). :disagree:

"To give anything less than your best is to sacrifice the Gift." - Steve Prefontaine

 

[bronxgirl]

It's not that anyone here feels that Sasha will never skate three clean programs in a row, it's just that she hasn't been able to do this to date. It seems that she just loses concentration (for want of a better term) when she needs it the most.

 

[Rgirl]

I agree with Shine (and Sasha:biggrin that she needs to get her Lutz,

(Why one doesn't put a smiley at the end of a parenthetical remark : p

It's the writing gods punishing me for being lazy and using too many parenthetical remarks.

However, Grasshopper Mathman, there are three emoticons who work in harmony with parentheses. Perhaps (if I feel like being nice ) I will show them to you (or not ) or anyway, perhaps lesson should be, "Beware of emoticons ending in colons inside parentheses" (yes ?).
Rgirl

 

[Rgirl]

***Note: btw, in Sasha's case it can't hurt going for it, as she will get pts. for fully rotating it, even if she falls, which I expect to happen (but not always).

ITA with "never say never," but in Sasha's or any skater's case, especially the women, I think going for the quad can hurt because of the increased risk of injury. You and others have heard my thoughts on this before, so I won't go into them all. However, I do find it interesting that when Sasha changed coaches to Robin Wagner, Robin said in an article either before or after worlds that she'd "have Sasha doing quads by mid-summer," and by early fall, Sasha's back was reinjured.

BTW, I think RW has the hots for a quad for Sasha because Sarah's 3/3s won her the OGM.

Of course we weren't there so we don't know how Sasha and Robin were actually training, but at least so far, every female skater who has tried to do 3/3s and/or quads consistently for more than one season has either failed at doing them consistently, become injured to the point of missing at least part of the season, or become injured to the point where she had to give up the sport.

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for the competitive spirit and if skaters want to push the envelope with their jumps, more power to them. But today's skaters are trying to do 3/3s (and more) and quads (and more) on boots that were never designed to do these kind of multirotational jumps and combinations. Sure, in the '80s they made the ankle part of the boot stiffer -- big woo.

Now here is where I'd usually torture everyone with my 25,000-word harangue for the hinged figure skating boot:banging:. At least now I can finally just put the link to my HINGED FIGURED SKATING BOOT SEARCH on Google because now there are a number of actual articles about the subject.

But seriously, gymnasts could not safely do a lot of the elements they now do routinely at the elite level until the appartus were improved. For example, the whole vault design has changed; the beam was changed so it was more springy and absorbed more shock; same with the floor; changes were made to the parallel and high bars; etc. Let's at least do the same for the figure skaters. They want to and CAN do more with their jumps, but with today's boots, they cannot do so safely.

Put some money into THAT, Speedy, you, you...boob!
Rgirl

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Nadine - I don't find the quad an exotic jump. It's a trick. I find it is reserved for skaters who have natural air rotation. Not every skater has that ability to begin with. Ando is a good skater but she is also cautious and does not execute the jump in every skate. When Sasha is ready she will execute the jump. She spins her jumps in the air like Tara and that get rotations. IMO, Sasha has landing problems. When that is resolved, bam... the quad will be there. Watch Kevin van der Perrren who spots his jumps in the air which prevents him from those rotations, but gives him beautiful triples. Every trick in skating is a combination of ability and technique. One may strive for the quad, but if it isn't there, I think the skater should forget it. I believe there is more to skating than quads and 'raising the bar' is just a silly term.

As to my abbreviated remark. A true artist (note the term artist and not acrobat) will incorporate as many jumps AS IS POSSIBLE into a program (without disturbing the flow of the choreography).

I repeat, when Sasha is ready she will execute the jump. I do not think she should do it if she is not really ready, and I don't feel it should be a necessity. She makes that decision as does Anda on whether to do it or not. Sasha has a lot going for her without a quad. She's one of my top three.

Joe

 

[Old Cat Lady]

Sorry, I have no problem recognizing that Cohen is one of the best when it comes to Performance/execution (if not THE best), but I don't see what she does with her footwork, jumping, transitions, skating skills or choreogrpahy that sets them above the others'. They are adequate, but nothing exceptional. To me, most of her PC scores were hugely overmarked last season.

I agree. If COP were applied as it meant, I think Sasha would actually suffer from it. Her lutz, even when landed, should get a -2 at best and there's a good argument for giving her a -3. Her jumps often look insecure. Her footwork isn't anything special. Her skating skills are inferior to the other top skaters.

I found her "Nutcracker" program shockingly weak. It had very little substantive transitions and choreography. I'm going to just assume that there are plans to add to it as the season goes on. The only thing that I think that she'd have a great advantage in is in the spins. Even in Performance/Execution, while she is excellent in certain parts of the score, she's adequate or even weak in others.

But I'd be very surprised if she didn't pull in huge scores anyway

I think 6.0 favored her because she has a charisma and excitement that can often cause people to overlook the little flaws in her skating. I like her skating, but other than tweaking some levels I don't think she's really adapted to COP. But then, it's not like the judges have given her any reason to.

btw, I support her quest for the quad. It's not like she's had all that much luck for the 3/3. The few times I've seen her land it, it probably would have been downgraded under COP. Also, I always admire athletes who constantly strive to better themselves.