Nathan Chen

[chopinskate]

I’m curious, have you ever seen Nathan as a junior? If you have I don’t think you would say he is “a lot better than he was”. He was actually a better spinner in his younger days, especially on the camel, with one of the best stretched out positions I’ve seen. I also think he was a bit better last season.

Also which upright position does he just “flop”? Are you talking about the one where he extends the free leg and holds it with one hand? Also, in the video posted I didn’t see a position where Shoma does a spin like what Nathan does, so how are we comparing?

No, but I'm also not going to compare him to his junior days, because I'm assuming it's kind of the same as ladies, where it becomes difficult to maintain positions and flexibility as one grows older and taller. So as a senior, his spins are a lot better now. Is that agreeable?

He kind of flopped on his final upright spin position on the last combination spin he does, at least in his Olympic FS. No, Shoma doesn't do the same spins, but we can still compare the speed and the commitment that they have in the positions they choose to perform.

 

[1111bm]

I’m curious, have you ever seen Nathan as a junior? If you have I don’t think you would say he is “a lot better than he was”. He was actually a better spinner in his younger days, especially on the camel, with one of the best stretched out positions I’ve seen.

I agree, I also noticed the decline in his camel specifically... he used to really stretch out his free leg up to his toes, which also seemed to help him stabilise the position faster whenever he performed a flying entry or change of foot by jump.

Well, just looking at the video Arriba627 posted, his upright position seems well extended with the arms, more control. If you see Nathan's sideways upright, it kind of just flops. https://youtu.be/VSUM4J465AQ?t=4m25s

Just compare their combination spins. Shoma's looks tighter to me, even in the shapes he creates.

Do you mean his intermediate position? I don't see any flopping... I guess he could extend his hand/fingers in a way, that would maybe give his arm a bit more stretch... but I think this is more about stylistic choices and not so much a technicality?


Also, I've officially gotten dizzy from watching all that spinning, trying to make out differences etc...

 

[chopinskate]

Do you mean his intermediate position? I don't see any flopping... I guess he could extend his hand/fingers in a way, that would maybe give his arm a bit more stretch... but I think this is more about stylistic choices and not so much a technicality?

No, the position at 5:01.

It looks pretty weak to me.

 

[yyyskate]

@1111bm Nathan has one of the best spins in his junior days, all positions are fabulous, especially his camel with his pointed toes, rarely any people do that, that is a specialty to Nathan. He have done donut, bend-leg layover (similar to Yuna spin) camel positions fabulously. Also, baby Nathan has an amazing talent to quickly find his center of spins (which really caught my attention).
I think his spins is not as good nowadays (still good enough), is mostly due to his lost of flexibility. which perhaps is a by-product of his jump-centric training regime. Also, he does not like practice spins, I think some flexibility training in the future may help.

 

[1111bm]

No, the position at 5:01.

It looks pretty weak to me.

Aaaah, I see... now that's funny because I actually LOVE that position of his, specifically because it's not as "perfect" (wouldn't go so far as to call it floppy, though ).

I like the way it feels less rehearsed and a bit unfinished, like he's letting loose in the end.
And I honestly always assumed that this was a conscious choice, a stylistic device for the culmination of the program, to express how he just gave it his all and is barely hanging in there (actually, he quite literally looks like he's just hanging by his hand, with his head sideways like that). I always thought that it made quite the impact.

To me this is part of a good composition/choreo, to always have a contrast between tension and stretched positions, and on the other side also some movements that are loose and seemingly "imperfect" (which is why I also don't mind the occasional hunched shoulders). At least that's what I like to watch.

 

[yyyskate]

@1111bm
I don't know why that upright side-way position is floppy, it is quite centered and performed 4 revolutions and matched music structure, the side-way bending and over-all stretch is prominent. It is not a scratch spin upright position, ofc, it would not be as fast as Nathan's scratch spin.

 

[yyyskate]

Nathan's FS final spin match music structure/phrasing is one of the most genius choreo idea I have ever seen this season.
https://youtu.be/7NcZT_aVV9c?t=711
They matched Nathan's faster spin position (sit, upright -- his signature Cola bottle position) to faster tempo music vibration phrase and slower spin position (camel) to sweeping longer music note phrase. also his final side-way upright position matched the final slower tempo bass drum phrase perfectly.

 

[shine]

No, but I'm also not going to compare him to his junior days, because I'm assuming it's kind of the same as ladies, where it becomes difficult to maintain positions and flexibility as one grows older and taller. So as a senior, his spins are a lot better now. Is that agreeable?

He kind of flopped on his final upright spin position on the last combination spin he does, at least in his Olympic FS. No, Shoma doesn't do the same spins, but we can still compare the speed and the commitment that they have in the positions they choose to perform.

Then you are also wrong. He didn’t really improve from last year to this year. It’s been about the same. The only position I see him really needing to work on is the camel. Also the position Shoma is doing requires less stretching than the one Nathan does, so it’s not comparable.

 

[1111bm]

No, the position at 5:01.

It looks pretty weak to me.

I just rewatched it, you can even see how Nathan's pushing down his right shoulder and his right arm is really stiff/stretched to help with stabilisation... and he's pushing out his left hip, creating a very distinct position... (looks similar to how one would approach a layback position, I think).

So yeah, looks very controlled to me, actually.

I guess, maybe it's just in its nature for this position to look like you're sagging a bit, the same way many broken leg variations and A-spins will always look somewhat awkward...?

 

[Metis]

Aaaah, I see... now that's funny because I actually LOVE that position of his, specifically because it's not as "perfect" (wouldn't go so far as to call it floppy, though ).

I don’t think perfection is required, but I do think that position lacks commitment and doesn’t achieve the dynamic finish that was intended. Maybe having him draw his knee to his chest, with his hands on his free leg, and then extend out, arms lifting to the music and free leg extending, would have given the final position more “oomph.” Wouldn’t require adding more revs, either.

His free leg’s alignment is also off, which also makes the pose look unfinished/“floppy.” It’s a good concept, just not quite tight enough in the execution of the sequence itself (and I’d consider adjusting the sequence in various ways to make the final pose more dramatic).

 

[yyyskate]

are you guys comparing Nathan's FS final spin final up-right position to Shoma's FS final spin final up-right position.
They are completely different 2 types of up-right spin positions and been used according to music structure differently. Both are great positions and served music purpose well.

 

[chopinskate]

Then you are also wrong. He didn’t really improve from last year to this year. It’s been about the same. The only position I see him really needing to work on is the camel. Also the position Shoma is doing requires less stretching than the one Nathan does, so it’s not comparable.

Well, we disagree. /shrug

 

[chopinskate]

I just rewatched it, you can even see how Nathan's pushing down his right shoulder and his right arm is really stiff/stretched to help with stabilisation... and he's pushing out his left hip, creating a very distinct position... (looks similar to how one would approach a layback position, I think).

So yeah, looks very controlled to me, actually.

I guess, maybe it's just in its nature for this position to look like you're sagging a bit, the same way many broken leg variations and A-spins will always look somewhat awkward...?

I don't think his free leg was properly extended to create the best shape, and I think he misaligned his hip and leg there. It was lack of extension in the leg and this misalignment that gave it a weak/floppy visual to me.

EDIT: Yeah, it kind of looks like this. Or should: https://youtu.be/2iRs19zOR-A?t=1m35s
Anyway, the question was about how Nathan can improve his spins -- he can improve his speed, and he can improve how he responds to the music during them. He can use more commitment in a few positions.

 

[shine]

Well, we disagree. /shrug

Oh yeah, which part? Can you elaborate?

 

[chopinskate]

Oh yeah, which part? Can you elaborate?

Particularly on the Shoma part, because I do think you can measure how much two different people commit to their positions, and how much speed they get. Even if you knock off the speed part and refuse comparison there, I think Shoma commited to his upright positions more than Nathan did.

 

[1111bm]

I don’t think perfection is required, but I do think that position lacks commitment and doesn’t achieve the dynamic finish that was intended. Maybe having him draw his knee to his chest, with his hands on his free leg, and then extend out, arms lifting to the music and free leg extending, would have given the final position more “oomph.”

EDIT: Yeah, it kind of looks like this. Or should: https://youtu.be/2iRs19zOR-A?t=1m35s

Yeah, I get that this is what maybe some of you expect it to look like (ideally), but I honestly don't think this is what they're going for with that position, so I don't think it's a lack of commitment to it.

He's got level 4 covered with what he does before that last upright position, so he doesn't have to hit some specific position at that point anymore.

And to me that position always looked a bit unfinished/not like an actual "real" position, because it reminded me of the way one would center a spin before drawing the free leg in and accelerating into a scratch spin, just that this would be the reverse. So to me it looks like he's deliberately decelerating the spin, before hitting the last pose in his choreo. And this is why I also don't think they intend for this last position to have "oomph", because that's what Nathan's final pose is for, I'd say.
And that upright position is just a moment of loosening up and taking out some of the intensity, right before bringing it back on the last drumbeat, instead of building it up evenly towards the end.
(It's also worth noting, that in earlier versions of the program, Nathan used to end the spin on a fast backspin, so in contrast to that, that decelerating feeling of the position right before that, was even more apparent)

Looking at it that way, I've never felt that it's a bad (or not-so-ideal) choice choreo-wise, but that's apparently a matter of taste.

Anyway, the question was about how Nathan can improve his spins -- he can improve his speed, and he can improve how he responds to the music during them. He can use more commitment in a few positions.

Yep, just as I suspected then. :thumbsup:

 

[lappo]

Totally unrelated to the present discussion, does anybody know Nathan middle name? It must begin with W according to his instagram account...

 

[yyyskate]

Totally unrelated to the present discussion, does anybody know Nathan middle name? It must begin with W according to his instagram account...

I guess that is not Nathan's middle name. perhaps, Nathan does not have middle English name, I guess the "w" is from his Chinese given name "Wei" just to differentiate from other Nathan Chen on twitter or instagram.

 

[shine]

Cold? I remember myself crying so loud that I've lost my voice Everything around was blurry because of tears. My hands were shaking and I couldn't feel my feet 'cause they were weak. I was crying cruying crying when I realised he was 1st overall (because for the 1st time I thought he was 2nd but it wasn't the final result). I was congratulated by a girl next to me 'cause she saw me in such an emotional state she said she also rooted for him and gave me a high five.

Yes, at first I was there for Hanyu. But in those 2 days I fell for Nathan.
(and some other skaters, too).

And Nathan was the reason I decided to not go back home, stay in Moscow and buy Gala tickets. My places were right above the K&C, oh Lord :')... but that's another story.

So cool that you were able to see that competition live! I think it was Nathan's best competition of the season. I got the feeling his SP was really well received there. Do you think Nathan gained some Russian fans?

 

[lurkz2]

I am amazed by how far Nathan has come that this board is already discussing how he can get higher GOES on all level 4 spins considering he got 0 points on his last spin during his first nationals senior podium.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Csa8fKd7e8o

Even in Rostelcom, he actually didn't get level 4 on all of his spins.