Nathan Chen

[MaiKatze]

I don't know if it has been shared here yet, but Shoma said some very nice things about Nathan in his press conference, when talking about the Olympics:

The performance that stood out for me and moved me the most was Nathan’s free skate. He wasn’t able to skate the way he wished to in the short, so when I heard that he earned such a high score and performed in such a spectacular way, I was really moved: the most moved I felt at these Olympics.

From here

 

[yyyskate]

Well I think in competition, they try to conserve his energy. At home, he does full RTs on the regular. Raf will set up mock competitions where all the skaters do their programs back to back in addition to their regular practice sessions.

I dont think it is to conserve energy tho, since Nathan do tons of quads in OP.

 

[shine]

I don't know if it has been shared here yet, but Shoma said some very nice things about Nathan in his press conference, when talking about the Olympics:



From here

Shoma is such a sweetheart and strikes me as very genuine :luv17:

 

[sherlock trollmes]

I love that quote from Shoma.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah - that’s true - IDK, I do know he does full runthroughs at Lakewood though.

 

[shine]

I totally agree with the previous comment and I hope that he recognize that while he is very talented he needs discipline and method to further improve otherwise he risks to become one of those diamonds in the rough who will never be able to achieve full polish. And honestly, basing my observation on Wagner and Rippon, Rafael doesn't seem the best option to further develop other aspects such as SS (even though I don't know who could replace him).
Also, I hope that Nathan keeps Shae as choreographer and my biggest dream is a Tom Dickson program for him next season.

Amen to that. And honestly the entire post. I am also for Nathan at least looking outside of his team for some new perspective, but not really because of the alleged drama he has going on with Raf that's being discussed here. My real worry is his overall development. I think the work he did with Marina Zueva two seasons ago was really helpful in that it in made him put a lot more focus on his skating skills and posture which I am kind of doubtful that Rafael's team stresses even though they do have an onsite choreographer Nadia Kaneva (who I do think has done some wonderful works for Nathan). Also, since Raf's mainly a technical/jump specialist, does his team even have someone who works specifically on skating skills like Brian Orser has with Tracy Wilson? Skating skills is one thing that I see still puts Nathan a bit below the other top men, but it's a bit frustrating because I think he does have great fundamentals already, and all he needs is a bit more focus on stroking, power and kneebend etc on a regular basis. All in all, I really don't know what the real problem is and whether this quad focus was mainly Nathan's idea or Raf's, but I hope they do a lot of re-evaluation of Nathan's development path in the off season.

 

[cchen24]

Well, the Nathan team wasn’t too well prepared last year at Worldss, either.

From a broader perspective, a problem might originate from the fact that they want the prize too quickly.

In the fall of 2016, Nathan did 4 quads in the first half of his LP, and finally skated clean at GPF. Then one extra quad was added in the second half at US Nationals, and he nailed it. He continued a 5 quad LP at 4CC, but had problems at a few quads, but still won. Then came Worlds， Raf hinted that there might be 6 quads in LP, and he did attempt 6, and fell on two.

All within a season. Full runthroughs in practice?
What version are we talking about here?
4 quad version, 5 quad version, or 6?

The danger here is obviously to sacrifice presentation when you keep chasing for more quads.

This season, at Cup of Russia he planned to do 5 quads, and landed 4. Instead of polishing the program to give it a cleaner look, at SA he first introduced 4Z in the second half of the LP, and the score came down from CoR because he messed up quite a few quads. At GPF, same layout, similar mistakes. What I see is that he is just not capable of doing 4Z or 4F in the second half, LP or SP. Even if he did land it, there would be other mistakes. That is why we have not seen a clean SP yet from him this season, since 4F is planned in the second half.
I would hope he does 4Z or 4F in the first half, and 4T+3T in the second half for SP, and aims at a program with great presentation. That will score very very high.

I see a pattern of focusing on upping the BV, or the number of quads he does. I wonder if the Nathan team has concluded that he cannot beat, say Shoma who does not do as many quads, so he has to go for more quads than everyone. But that hinders the development of his artistry, I believe.

I have no doubt he trains very hard, but I wonder if he trains smart. I don't see, say, Shoma adding more and more quads as the season progresses just to have a shot at beating Yuzuru. Javier doesn't do that, either. They stick to their game plan and aim at polishing their programs throughout the season. I hope Nathan can learn a thing or two from these skaters.

I haven't seen any top skater do this, ie constantly adding more difficult jumps in the programs in a season. I have also never heard of any top skater saying they would decide what jumps they do based on how they feel on a given day. Yes, I heard Nathan said exactly that in an interview. Since he has so many quads, he can move things around. This does not sound like discipline to me.

I may be too harsh on Nathan.
But he really does things too differently from all the top skaters I know.

When asked why Michelle did not put in 3T+3T at the 98 Olympics since her toe felt better. She said, you just cannot change your program at the last minute. What is set is set.
In a way, Nathan's LP is never set, and he wants a shot at gold?

This is the discipline I am talking aboit.
When Nathan keeps moving quads around the program, I just don't see how he can really get into the music and interpret the music the best he can.

I had high hope on his LP when I first saw it last September at his debut. It could be a masterpiece. But he has been focusing on getting more quads in, and a lot of details have been taken out. I think he really wants it too quickly, and thus focuses on the wrong things.

 

[sherlock trollmes]

Good points! I agree with a lot of it, TBH - training smartly is important. This is something that Raf’s skaters in the past have really struggled with and many of his skaters were injured often. I’m impressed that Nathan has been able to get through the past two years relatively unscathed minus minor injuries that did not seem to affect much - which shows me that Raf as at least learned a little bit. His team keeps things pretty close to the vest so I’m not sure we will ever completely know the inner workings of what goes on. I think he practices a multitude of layouts so he can go with what feels right in the moment. I do think it’s a testament to his talent that this strategy has worked as well as it has because I can’t imagine it working for many others. I think he needs more on the mental side of things - but I’m interested to see what they both take away from this experience. I think that’ll tell us a lot about Nathan’s career moving forwards.

But also - Raf’s strong suit is not artistry. His is all technique based. And when Nathan worked with Marina, he felt like his jumps suffered so he went back. It’s all about what you prioritize. So hopefully Nathan will continue to work with Shae and Lori and others to help cultivate that side of it. I believe there have been improvements this year.

 

[sheetz]

^^Shoma did add 4Lo mid season last year.

One more thing about Patrick, he said in that Facebook interview that he wouldn't be opening up his school for a few years. He does say he has a soft spot for Nathan so I'm sure he'd love to give him some SS lessons.

 

[hhh]

Japanese TV listing for the Olympic gala. It says the Mens participants have already been decided and that "Gold Medalist Yuzuru Hanyu, silver medalist Shoma Uno, bronze medalist Javier Fernandez (Spain), 4th place Boyang Jin (China), and the first person in Olympic history to successfully land five quadruple jumps in a free skate, Nathan Chen (USA), will appear." Take it for what it's worth.
https://twitter.com/machidaandmeeco/status/965116820792332288

Really? Oh gosh I sure hope so, his exhibitions are hands down so fun and original, not simple some excerpts from the SP/FS. Hope NBC will show this to DVR

Thanks to all the sharing.

 

[1111bm]

I think Nathan does full RTs in practice at home. (I’ve talked to people who have watched him train at Lakewood) I think Nathan has a lot of discipline - for all anyone says is how hard he works. I think they practice a lot of different layouts - so that he’s technically prepared for anything, but of course, that limits the amount of muscle memory that he is able to achieve.

I think he and Raf have always looked at Nathan’s ability to think on the fly as a strength - and to some extent, it is - and it’s served him well up to this point. But I think both of them were unprepared for the enormity of the Olympics as a major contender. But I don’t see it as a discipline problem as much as just a strategy that didn’t pan out for him.

I just wanted to post the exact same thing, you took the words out of my mouth!

So just gonna add a few thoughts:

I think Nathan does full RTs in practice at home.

Exactly, I mean, how do you all know he doesn't do full RTs at home? Where did this belief come from? Is this just an assumption based on what he does during practice, when he's at a competition? I wouldn't know, so...

As my psychologist friend suspected, Nathan is too independent and wants to do things in his own terms. That is dangerous for a teenager. Look, he made the decision of going for 6 quads himself with encouragement from his mom without input from his coach. I cannot imagine any coach would feel good about this. For one thing, I cannot imagine Yuzuru deciding to go for 4Z 4L without first consulting Brian Orser.

I fear that it might be Nathan constantly tweaking the jump layout himself throughout the season, and the adult Raf could not stop the ambitious kid from doing that.

I think he and Raf have always looked at Nathan’s ability to think on the fly as a strength - and to some extent, it is - and it’s served him well up to this point. But I think both of them were unprepared for the enormity of the Olympics as a major contender. But I don’t see it as a discipline problem as much as just a strategy that didn’t pan out for him.

Nathan mentioned several times throughout the season, that he treats less important competitions as trial runs, where he gets to experiment with different layouts to see what works best for him...

Also:
Remember that recent interview, where they talked to Nathan and Raf independently, but asked them the same questions?
Raf was the one who emphasised that he encourages Nathan to try out different layouts during training, so that he's prepared to make changes mid-program, in case he makes a mistake during competition and has to adjust... and yes, he sold it as a strength and a conscious strategy...

So I really don't see any indication, that this is all Nathan's idea and Raf is just a helpless bystander who can't rein in the rebellious teenager.

Also, once Nathan moved up to seniors and started doing a big number of quads, he stopped doing steps before his jumps.
As a result, he has the same, almost universal set-up for most of his jumping passes (except for his Lutz, maybe).
This means he's not as bound to a defined pattern of transitional steps leading into his jumps to get into a specific rhythm, because his jumps are more stand-alone and therefore much more interchangeable.
Skaters like Javi and Yuzu on the other hand, have a different jump approach, so it's not as easy for them.

Incidentally, some time ago, in Yuzu's thread, several people were questioning his choice of jump layout, more precisely Yuzu's sticking to a certain layout, that his fans perceived as problematic because until then, it had been unsuccessful (due to its placement in the program, the whole rhythm of steps leading into the jump...).
So you see, there's another perspective, where people wished a skater would be more flexible or open to changes in his jump layout...

I'm not saying that a fixed layout since the start of the season wouldn't have helped Nathan during olympics... I just think that we can't really assess what's best for any given skater and what will or would have worked out for them in competition.

I cannot imagine any coach would feel good about this. For one thing, I cannot imagine Yuzuru deciding to go for 4Z 4L without first consulting Brian Orser.

I also noticed there seems to be a LOT of talk about how independent Yuzu is of Orser, that he always does what he wants and how little control Orser has over Yuzu... also lots of fans questioning Orser's involvement and the significance of his input into Yuzu's training and development...

Don't know how much of that is true, and how much of it is just certain fan's legend-building, wishful thinking but still,... doesn't sound to me like Yuzu is an obedient, model student...

Also lets not forget, that according to Nathan, Raf didn't seek him out after his SP... so he certainly would have no business feeling "not good about this", if he didn't even try to confront his student to talk about their strategy for the FS.

 

[hhh]

I've been a casual fan of Nathan's since 2016, but hadn't joined the fan thread until today. Probably because I feared even the fan thread would disagree with my positive opinion of his Vera Wangs.

Here here, been skating fan since kid and have two cousins skating but started following Nathan after his first year at US championship. I too like the two OG costumes he wore.

This was apparently from a Facebook live with Patrick. The link doesn't work for me so if somewhere knows where it came from I'd appreciate it. He was asked about "passing the torch" to another skater and he mentioned Nathan.
https://twitter.com/crazykuroneko/status/965205981868253184[/QUOTE

Patrick is so genuine and thoughtful, I hope he can be a mentor for Nathan like a big bro mentor I believe he does need. Scott Hamilton has been incredibly supportive as well. Maybe Nathan needs to learn how to reach out for help at times. Dude, you’re blessed with so many wonderful athletes/choreographers around, reach out if needed.

Good points! I agree with a lot of it, TBH - training smartly is important. This is something that Raf’s skaters in the past have really struggled with and many of his skaters were injured often. I’m impressed that Nathan has been able to get through the past two years relatively unscathed minus minor injuries that did not seem to affect much - which shows me that Raf as at least learned a little bit. His team keeps things pretty close to the vest so I’m not sure we will ever completely know the inner workings of what goes on. I think he practices a multitude of layouts so he can go with what feels right in the moment. I do think it’s a testament to his talent that this strategy has worked as well as it has because I can’t imagine it working for many others. I think he needs more on the mental side of things - but I’m interested to see what they both take away from this experience. I think that’ll tell us a lot about Nathan’s career moving forwards.

But also - Raf’s strong suit is not artistry. His is all technique based. And when Nathan worked with Marina, he felt like his jumps suffered so he went back. It’s all about what you prioritize. So hopefully Nathan will continue to work with Shae and Lori and others to help cultivate that side of it. I believe there have been improvements this year.

Agree.

 

[yyyskate]

perhaps it is indeed they wanted the gold medal too fast.
USFS is sending the signal that with 4 quads, Nathan still can only get a bronze at nationals.
Internationally, maybe they feared that his PCS won't increase as quickly as they needed to win the Gold in OG, if they had chose less quads but better components approach.
Honestly, PCS to a very large extent really is reputation based except if you are Russian girls.

Nathan took away lots of original linking steps into his quad jumps and replaced it with moves that he is familiar with throughout the season.

That is not how a artistic skater do their programs, e.g. Yuna, she never randomly change any entries to her jumps or any choreo (yet still maintain the hightest TES ability in the field)

Nathan seems think that randomly add a spread eagle or a choctac will increase components, but that is not how you do it, transitions and choreo and jump-layout are an integral concept should be designed in the beginning, just minor adjustment throughout the season, but focus on polish it and eventually do it perfectly.

also, in order to increase consistency, many skaters will do the same transition into jumps in both short and long. e.g. same opening 2 jumping passes
yet Nathan even changes his SP jump layout. the original SP jump layout is actually start with 3A. cos they initially was even more greedy about the second half bonus..

All these indicate to me that they does not have proper evaluation of Nathan's ability, and without a proper game plan and all seems a little chaotic. No big picture.

I personally do not like this approach.

 

[shine]

Well, the Nathan team wasn’t too well prepared last year at Worldss, either.

From a broader perspective, a problem might originate from the fact that they want the prize too quickly.

In the fall of 2016, Nathan did 4 quads in the first half of his LP, and finally skated clean at GPF. Then one extra quad was added in the second half at US Nationals, and he nailed it. He continued a 5 quad LP at 4CC, but had problems at a few quads, but still won. Then came Worlds， Raf hinted that there might be 6 quads in LP, and he did attempt 6, and fell on two.

All within a season. Full runthroughs in practice?
What version are we talking about here?
4 quad version, 5 quad version, or 6?

The danger here is obviously to sacrifice presentation when you keep chasing for more quads.

This season, at Cup of Russia he planned to do 5 quads, and landed 4. Instead of polishing the program to give it a cleaner look, at SA he first introduced 4Z in the second half of the LP, and the score came down from CoR because he messed up quite a few quads. At GPF, same layout, similar mistakes. What I see is that he is just not capable of doing 4Z or 4F in the second half, LP or SP. Even if he did land it, there would be other mistakes. That is why we have not seen a clean SP yet from him this season, since 4F is planned in the second half.
I would hope he does 4Z or 4F in the first half, and 4T+3T in the second half for SP, and aims at a program with great presentation. That will score very very high.

I see a pattern of focusing on upping the BV, or the number of quads he does. I wonder if the Nathan team has concluded that he cannot beat, say Shoma who does not do as many quads, so he has to go for more quads than everyone. But that hinders the development of his artistry, I believe.

I have no doubt he trains very hard, but I wonder if he trains smart. I don't see, say, Shoma adding more and more quads as the season progresses just to have a shot at beating Yuzuru. Javier doesn't do that, either. They stick to their game plan and aim at polishing their programs throughout the season. I hope Nathan can learn a thing or two from these skaters.

I haven't seen any top skater do this, ie constantly adding more difficult jumps in the programs in a season. I have also never heard of any top skater saying they would decide what jumps they do based on how they feel on a given day. Yes, I heard Nathan said exactly that in an interview. Since he has so many quads, he can move things around. This does not sound like discipline to me.

I may be too harsh on Nathan.
But he really does things too differently from all the top skaters I know.

When asked why Michelle did not put in 3T+3T at the 98 Olympics since her toe felt better. She said, you just cannot change your program at the last minute. What is set is set.
In a way, Nathan's LP is never set, and he wants a shot at gold?

This is the discipline I am talking aboit.
When Nathan keeps moving quads around the program, I just don't see how he can really get into the music and interpret the music the best he can.

I had high hope on his LP when I first saw it last September at his debut. It could be a masterpiece. But he has been focusing on getting more quads in, and a lot of details have been taken out. I think he really wants it too quickly, and thus focuses on the wrong things.

Can we please send this entire post to Nathan's team?

 

[yyyskate]

@1111bm
I agree with mostly what you said. we can not just say Nathan is a arrogant rebellion at all

As for Yuzuru stick to his lay-out even if he cannot do it in the beginning thus cost him some result in competition, I am also aware of that, I am a Yuzuru fan before Nathan.

I think that is Team Orser's approach, Yuna, Yuzuru, Javi all seems do the same thing.

And in my opinion, that is better for the long term, yet Raf's approach could get quick result in short term if lucky (like Nathan is winning everything until OG this season)

 

[yyyskate]

I feel sorry for Nathan again.

Such a rare once in a generation talent, I really really hope he can reach his full potential in figure skating, been properly, patiently nurtured and cultivated.

 

[Miss Ice]

Can we please send this entire post to Nathan's team?

Yeah, exactly. I really wish that, if Yuzu retired before next OGM, Nathan can train with Orser a bit. I actually caught Orser looking toward Raf/Nathan direction during the LP warm-up a few times, since Raf and Orses were right next to each other. But Orser and American skaters don't really seem to be a thing?...

Also, I'm so tired of non-Nathan fans trying to gloat over Nathan's result. They try to pick a fight even when all one is saying is that Nathan has immense potential and really does have the base content to blow everyone out of the water. I'm excited to see how he develops, and I hope he can proove all those naysayers wrong. :agree:

 

[yyyskate]

the adjustment(or lay-out adjustment practice) normal people usually do is if a mistake happen, I should know what to do to make up e.g. I missed my 3t in my opening combo I will tag it on later solo jump.

Should not be changing lay-out from 4, to 5, or 6 quads jump depends on how your rivals is doing or how you feel that morning,
this indicated 1, no proper goal setting for the season. 2, no proper evaluation of your ability and potential in the season.

EDIT: actually Nathan seems lacks the proper adjustment training e.g. in his TE SP, his opening 4F landing is not perfect, and he can only tag -2t, the better adjustment should be treat the 4F as solo jump and doing the +3t after 4T,

 

[yyyskate]

It feels to me that Raf really is the guy to get quick result, e.g. lots of skaters went to him for technique touch-up job. (Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Mariah Bell, Ash etc.)

yet watching Yuzuru doing strokes and blade works and figures in OG practice peacefully, really reminds me where figure skating's root is.

all those SS practice, blade to ice relationship practice may even help Nathan land his quad more efficiently, more securely, more beautifully in the long run.

Nathan is really a genius that he is the only one in human history that can do 5 different quads at such a young age of 18, but to fine tune those jumps to incorporate them into a complete program takes time and patience.

 

[NathanandMiraifan111]

It feels to me that Raf really is the guy to get quick result, e.g. lots of skaters went to him for technique touch-up job. (Mao Asada, Michelle Kwan, Mariah Bell, Ash etc.)

yet watching Yuzuru doing strokes and blade works and figures in OG practice peacefully, really reminds me where figure skating's root is.

all those SS practice, blade to ice relationship practice may even help Nathan land his quad more efficiently, more securely, more beautifully in the long run.

Nathan is really a genius that he is the only one in human history that can do 5 different quads at such a young age of 18, but to fine tune those jumps to incorporate them into a complete program takes time and patience.

You seem to be over-analyzing everything based on two flawed short programs. You're already making assumptions about Raf when you really have no clue what Nathan's and Raf's relationship is like. There's a saying about assumptions, Don't assume, because you make an *** out of u and me. Nathan is a great skater, and is also very young. He will have another shot at OGM, calm down and be patient about how his career develops.

 

[yyyskate]

@NathanandMiraifan111
just observation, chill
also, this is a relatively free Nathan's fan thread, I think my concern as a fan about him is okay to be posted here.
ofc, you can object. and other people will have their opinions as whatever I post here. but I will still post my opinion in a proper way as much as possible.