Nathan Chen

[shine]

This is getting somewhat ridiculous.
When I mentioned Nathan's interview after LP, he specifically said his mom always encourages him to push his limitation and thus supported to go for 6 quads, people said no, his mom merely provided support but not calling the shots.

After Raf spoke out and confirmed it, some still wanted to make it as solely Nathan's decision to go for broke.

Raf also said Nathan told him he wanted to devoted the Olympic season to his family. This is exactly what those folks at TSL said: it's been the mom calling for jump contents throughout the season. Raf wants to keep Nathan so much, do he put up with that. Calling the shots did not just happen at the Olympics.

These don't seem like speculation to me at all.
You can choose to be in denial.
But I wasn't born yesterday.

I am a fan, and I am seriously amazed by the denial I see here.
I am speechless.

The criticism by the people at TSL and Sandra Bezic is that Nathan constantly changes his jump content.
I have no doubt he has been practicing the 6 quad layout.
But that is exactly what the criticism about: constantly changing the jump content, and cannot train the same program to build muscle memory.

Who made the call to train this way?
Nathan? Raf? Or mom?
Whoever called that, it is a mistake, a serious one.
More and more evidence points to the mom.
The Olympic season would be devoted to the family, and thus the family calls the shots not the coach.
Who do you think calls for constantly changing jump layout?

No one is DENYING the possibility of his family being very influential to him and that he might feel pressure to push as much as he can due to a sense of indebtedness combined with a his own expectation for himself. The fact is, in NO WHERE do I see a direct suggestion from Raf that it's his mom calling shots and TELLING Nathan what specific jump content to do. Feeling obligated and being told directly are TWO VERY DIFFERENT things. It's your jumping to conclusion immediately and stating everything your "psychologist friend"--who is merely observing from afar and making guesses just like the rest of us--as facts that really bothers me.

 

[yyyskate]

This is getting somewhat ridiculous.

I have no doubt he has been practicing the 6 quad layout.
As a matter of fact, he said that he didn't have great success with that layout.
But that is exactly what the criticism about: constantly changing the jump content, and cannot train the same program to build muscle memory.

Who made the call to train this way?
Nathan? Raf? Or mom?
Whoever called that, it is a mistake, a serious one.

Who do you think calls for constantly changing jump layout?

agree with bold part.

 

[besti loop]

There is a mistake in the translation:

Not "For me the most important is for him to do what he wants, and what he is being told by the others."

But "and NOT what he is being told by the others".

Also, it seems like Rafael can't let himself directly say it's mother's (parents') fault. But he goes around it:
"I still don't know whose decision was it. ____If it was the family...____"

"Hence he decided to dedicate the Olympic season to his family and ____follow every wish of his beloved ones____. We'll see next season whether he'll change his mind. Then we'll decide how to continue working."

Follow. Every. Wish. Of his family. Adding both 4lz and 4F. Rafael didn't, though, comment on whose decision the 6 quads l.p. was. He only commented on jumps changes in the SP, or am I wrong?

 

[cchen24]

Raf said Nathan told him he would do everything presented to him at family meetings...

It doesn't sound like merely Nathan wanted to do the most he possibly could to make his family proud.

Raf was saying specifically that Nathan was given advice on his skating from his family. That is coaching, to me.

On top of it, you have got people at TSL pointed to the same thing.

Yes, we are all speculating.
These are all gossip and made up.

Being a research scientist myself, I think I know how to connect the dots, especially from different souces pointing to the same direction.

Keep on attacking all you want.
I suspect in the skating world, many people are aware of the situation for some time. Raf could not possibly be pleased with the situation. Hiw many people might he have mentioned these to in private?
People at TSL just gossip on the issue?
Yeah, right.

 

[yyyskate]

about Nathan's Mom
according to my source, a friend who had some chat with Nathan's Mom at comps. the following are some accounts:

Nathan's Mom is very easy to talk to(seems an extrovert, bubbly, proud mom) and seems sincerely loves figure skating.
Nathan's mom mentioned Nathan is growing up, gradually has his own opinions now .. whether he will continue depends on his own mind (very similar to the Salt Lake article about Nathan's mom)
Nathan's Mom mentioned that it is fan's love and family's love (brother Tony) changed his perspective as for whether or not will he continue after 2018, he seems more willing to continue (as to retire right after 2018)
Nathan's Mom is heavily involved in Nathan's FS music choice, Lori pitched the music, Lori, Mom loves the music so much, they have checked many other choices, but always go back this one, music is just too beautiful, Nathan does not feel it initially, he likes classic music (e.g. Mozart), but gradually started to appreciate it.
Nathan's mom only coached Nathan when he was a baby, and as I posted previously regarding 3A, Nathan's mom said "trust the coach" that is her exact word.
About Nathan's costume design, Nathan mom said many people are involved, but she can only reveal more info about it when the Team decided to do so.
Nathan's mom do not have 100% control of Nathan's whereabout anymore, sometimes, even she does not know where Nathan is. Nathan is mostly with Team.

This is some account, for those concerned about Nathan's mom, just some perspective.

 

[yyyskate]

also, Nathan mom mentioned that the initial choreo (without jumps) of Nathan's FS last dancer is sooo beautiful and moved her into tears.
yet the performance is deteriorated once the jumps are added it, when asked whether there is a recording of that initial performance, sadly there is none.

 

[cchen24]

When I first saw Nathan's LP last September at his debut, I absolutely loved the program.
Thus, I went to buy the DVD of the movie and watched it. After learning about the story, I love the program even more.
(I downloaded the performance of his debut, and have it on my phone which I watch very frequently.)

Here is my take on the whole thing.
No need to get lost in all the details.
Key question is: who made the call to constantly tweak the jump content, especially the LP?
Let me just list the change of "big ticket" items:

4S before or after half point?
2 3A or 1?
adding a 4Z after half point?
5 or 6 quads?

These are major changes. I cannot imagine how Nathan could train well just looking at the programs has put out this season.
I am pretty sure in practices, he must have tried even more different versions.
It is just insane.

Three possibilities:
1) Raf made the call: he would certainly face criticism among his peers...

2) mom: she would definitely need to back off from this since no great champions do such things

3) Nathan: this would be the worst since he obviously would not listen to anyone. I doubt any coaching change would help since he would need to learn that this is not the path to success.

His mom does not need to understand all the technical side of skating, ie being able to teach jumping, to call for a layout change.

I don't have the knowledge, either. When I saw Nathan's debut of quad loop this season, I was secretly dreaming of a 7-quad LP at the Olympics. You know what I mean... She could call for different jump content without being able to teach jumps.

Three possibilities, your choice.
Well, it could be a combination of two, or all three....

 

[yyyskate]

All in all, I agree there is strategy mistakes, and Nathan's first OG is a failure in some aspect despite Nathan's miracle historical long e.g. lay-out change almost everyone pointed out from fans to experts.
but we can not just point fingers at one party or another right away.

 

[cchen24]

All in all, I agree there is strategy mistakes, and Nathan's first OG is a failure in some aspect despite Nathan's miracle historical long e.g. lay-out change almost everyone pointed out from fans to experts.
but we can not just point fingers at one party or another right away.

I may sound very harsh.
But I think in order for Nathan to become a world/Olympic champ, he needs to face these issues head on.

The constant layout change has been going on for two seasons since his return in fall of 2016.
He really cannot afford to let this continue.

I even fear that he might be labeled as an inconsistent skater by the judges.
Once that impression is formed, it would be hard to erase.
In this sport, consistency is key.
Some great skaters stick to the same layout season after season because it produces consistency, and thus great results.

 

[yyyskate]

@cchen24
"I am pretty sure in practices, he must have tried even more different versions.
It is just insane."
I agree with this, Nathan's 3jump combo has also been changed all over the place as well.

As for his 4loop debut, I never thought about 7 quad program, because I knew it is impossible for Nathan stamina wise even he is Nathan.

but I have dreamed a 5 different kinds 5-quad FS, it will be difficult, he needs to really familiar and confident with all 5 quad entry pattern which is really difficult, and it is not the most practical idea points wise. Yuzuru repeated 2 kinda of quads and got the OGM.

but as a fan, one can only dream, that is my dream once Nathan debut his 4loop. it is a beautiful dream.

 

[chopinskate]

Update: translation available here https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/vaytskekhovskayas-interview-with-arutyunian.103449/

You should post this in the main discussion board. I suspect many people would like to share their thoughts.

 

[yyyskate]

as for who called the layout change shot.
Don't forget once Raf said in interview due to Nathan's relative success this season leading to OG he may suggest more young skaters to practice lay-out change in the future. sounds like he is not sure either...
Nathan's result this season is undefeated until OG, but one needs to look at the real score and real skating.

another account about Nathan's Mom
regarding Lay-out, she does not know, it depends on how Nathan feels, only sure thing is that, if Nathan is healthy or in a health/stamina good condition, it will be better.

 

[yyyskate]

You should post this in the main discussion board. I suspect many people would like to share their thoughts.

I will be hesitate about that.

 

[shine]

also, Nathan mom mentioned that the initial choreo (without jumps) of Nathan's FS last dancer is sooo beautiful and moved her into tears.
yet the performance is deteriorated once the jumps are added it, when asked whether there is a recording of that initial performance, sadly there is none.

What do you mean by that? The program from US Intl Classic is still on YouTube, and that one did move me to tears.

 

[chopinskate]

I will be hesitate about that.

It's a public interview. I'm just asking besti loop to post it because they found it already.

 

[yyyskate]

What do you mean by that? The program from US Intl Classic is still on YouTube, and that one did move me to tears.

not the USIC one, it is the very very original one that just after Lori chored for Nathan, Nathan performed without any jump and moved Mom into tears. And there is no recording of that one.

 

[yyyskate]

Also, People perhaps may want to re-read the Phill Hersey article Raf said, Nathan said to get some perspective as for lay-out change issue and who is calling the shot.
My impression is Raf is more aggressive (he also sounded positive in 7 quads lay-out not in the Phill article, some impression from other place) and Nathan sounded more realistic.
if someone can link that article (Phil's raf said, nathan said article), I wanna read it it again

 

[shine]

When I first saw Nathan's LP last September at his debut, I absolutely loved the program.
Thus, I went to buy the DVD of the movie and watched it. After learning about the story, I love the program even more.
(I downloaded the performance of his debut, and have it on my phone which I watch very frequently.)

Here is my take on the whole thing.
No need to get lost in all the details.
Key question is: who made the call to constantly tweak the jump content, especially the LP?
Let me just list the change of "big ticket" items:

4S before or after half point?
2 3A or 1?
adding a 4Z after half point?
5 or 6 quads?

These are major changes. I cannot imagine how Nathan could train well just looking at the programs has put out this season.
I am pretty sure in practices, he must have tried even more different versions.
It is just insane.

Three possibilities:
1) Raf made the call: he would certainly face criticism among his peers...

2) mom: she would definitely need to back off from this since no great champions do such things

3) Nathan: this would be the worst since he obviously would not listen to anyone. I doubt any coaching change would help since he would need to learn that this is not the path to success.

His mom does not need to understand all the technical side of skating, ie being able to teach jumping, to call for a layout change.

I don't have the knowledge, either. When I saw Nathan's debut of quad loop this season, I was secretly dreaming of a 7-quad LP at the Olympics. You know what I mean... She could call for different jump content without being able to teach jumps.

Three possibilities, your choice.
Well, it could be a combination of two, or all three....

Raf openly spoke about this approach to decide on a final layout last minute depending on how Nathan feels on the day in a recent interview (I don't remember which one) and he sounded to me like he's both proud of Nathan's ability to do that as well as his own ability to teach this. So there's no need to further speculate about whose idea it is. At the very least it's an approach agreed upon by both sides, which is why I found it puzzling (and I've stated this multiple times in earlier posts) that as experienced as he is as a coach he would allow and even encourage this approach. And you can stop blaming Nathan's mom for the constant layout change.

ETA: yyyskate just referenced the interview I was referring to in the post below.

 

[yyyskate]

this is the article http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2018/02/06/265799948/he-said-he-said-chen-arutunian-dissect-methods
regarding layout
this is Raf said
Hersh: When Nathan goes out for a free skate, when does he decide which jumps he will do? Before? During the program? For instance, at nationals when he decided to do two quad flips instead of two quad lutzes, when did he decide it?

Arutunian: We have so many patterns of programs, we can play around with them, and we do that in practice at home. For us, it's not necessary (to always know) what is coming next.

Let's say you're driving a car. It's not necessary to know what kind of curve is coming. We can handle every type of curve, because we have a steering wheel that lets us manage it. We just drive and test the road on different kinds of curves. So, we can handle anything we want according to what is going on, what our competitors do.

Hersh: Can Nathan change that when he is in the middle of the program?

Arutunian: If he needs to.

Hersh: Let's say he finished an element in one corner and he wants to do a quad salchow next instead of the triple axel that was planned to come next. Do you work on changing?

Arutunian: We practice that. Everything he does, we practice. It does not come from the middle of nowhere.

Hersh: But he will have to use another setup for a different type of jump or maybe change the setup because it starts in a different place on the rink…

Arutunian: That setup is ready. He can change any time he wants.

Hersh: Have you ever had a skater good enough and intelligent enough to change at the last minute?

Arutunian: I wasn't good enough (before) to teach that. Now I realize I should train them to do that.

Hersh: When did you realize Nathan was someone you could train to do that?

Arutunian: The first day he came to me (at age 11 in 2011). Now I try to catch up on that with other (older) ones I coach. Unfortunately, I don't have that many young, upcoming talents.

this Nathan said:
Hersh: Some experts have told me it looks as if you are able to change difficult jumps when you are in the middle of a program. Is that true and do you practice doing it?

Chen: Yes and no. I have a planned approach for every program. However, if I make a mistake, I may have to change because of the rules. In practice, if something goes wrong, I will definitely try to think of what I can do to fix it. Sometimes, if everything is going right (in a run-through) and I make one silly mistake on one jump, I'll throw in that jump somewhere else to get extra practice in. Ultimately, it's just trying to follow the rules and trying to maximize my points.

Hersh: Do you practice doing a completely different setup (for a last-second jump change) from different places on the rink?

Chen: At times, yeah. But I try to stay consistent with the general setup of my jumps. I don't want to just randomly throw one in I've never done before. Sometimes I do try that just to challenge myself, to test myself to see if I can do it. At the end of the day, though, the program has to be a unified piece, and I don't want to mess up transitions for the sake of one or two jumps.

Nathan sounded more conservative and more like most others will do.

 

[yyyskate]

Raf openly spoke about this approach to decide on a final layout last minute depending on how Nathan feels on the day in a recent interview (I don't remember which one) and he sounded to me like he's both proud of Nathan's ability to do that as well as his own ability to teach this. So there's no need to further speculate about whose idea it is. At the very least it's an approach agreed upon by both sides, which is why I found it puzzling (and I've stated this multiple times in earlier posts) that as experienced as he is as a coach he would allow and even encourage this approach.

ETA: yyyskate just referenced the interview I was referring to in the post below.

agreed!!