Nathan Chen
- Thread starter matmuh
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2006
Agreed. I'm confused how a program with one quad is only 1 point behind this, even with shaky landings at all. It's just not consistent with what we see in the ladies' discipline either. Praying for Nathan to stay calm and confident. :luv17:
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
For what it’s worth, he has the FS running away on base values alone. He didn’t even need to go for a 4F in the short; a clean 4T+3T combo with high GOEs should still have been enough to keep him ahead. I think the 4F was there as a guarantee, however — he wanted to lock in the short on BV, which was a bit more high-risk.
I’m thrilled he landed everything! When I saw his submitted layout, I nearly had a heart attack! [emoji23] I was afraid of the 4Lz-4F proximity issue and a potential fall costing him points, but he saved every landing. I think I lost a few years off my already shortened lifespan, but once he finished his last jumping pass, I could breathe, as even with the low to potentially negative GOEs, it was clear he’d lead after the short.
ETA: I wouldn’t compare across genders in singles. The disciplines value, for better or for worse, different things, or, to be more precise, place different weights on the same elements. And progress isn’t the same across the two, nor are expectations, definitions of “artistry,” judging, etc. Flutzing, for example, is not really an issue for men, even on the 3Lz, whereas it’s a hot-button issue for the women. I’ve made it my policy not to compare the two, anyway. It just gives me a headache, as there aren’t many variables you can hold constant.
Benjamin Clementine is the modern day male Nina Simone, and not music an American teenager usually listens to. What a brilliant and inspiring musical choice.
Shae Lynn is becoming my favorite choreographer.
I don't think being a fan requires me to be blind.
And I don't think I am nitpicking him. While I am glad that he landed everything today, he obviously had to fight for every landing.
you remind me to check out other threads outside of Nathan's FF. I am going to write down every bit of nitpicking of Nathan's skating in my little notebook:yes:
Good for you.
But I find your previous post out of line: i.e. asking people to leave here when they had any negative things to say about Nathan.
That, to me, is uncalled for.
I was on my way to work when Nathan skated. I was following Jackie Wong's tweets.
All I saw was that he landed everything, the first time this season for SP.
Then how on earth, he did not score the highest?
I was puzzled.
Then, I also noticed that he was less than 2 points above Kolyada who took out 4Z.
I thought maybe the judges inflated Kolyada's score and low-ball Nathan's.
Then, I watched the two performances on youtube.
And I found scoring was fair since Nathan had to fight for every landing while Kolyada landed every jump with ease.
During the Olympics, I already stated that, based on my observation, Nathan would have a lot of trouble to deliver a strong SP with his planned jump layout. 4F or 4Z after half point, either SP or LP, is too hard for him. I was hoping that he would do 4Z // 4T+3T 3A in SP. Kolyada showed today that even downgrading 4Z to 3Z allowed him to score 100+. Quality is way more important than pure difficulty (BV). With the introduction of +5/-5 GOE next season, this will become even more clear.
How's that being nitpicking?!
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
I'm not good at noticing such details... I can't differ his latest technique from the original. Could you maybe describe the difference or tell me what videos of him performing should I watch and to what should I pay the attention to actually notice the technique difference?
I'm not good at noticing such details... I can't differ his latest technique from the original. Could you maybe descrive the difference or tell me what videos of him performing should I watch and to what should I pay the attention to actually notice the technique difference?
I checked Nathan's 3A slow-mo again, he is still using his latest technique, with heavy skip and more straight entry edge. his previous 2A technique is a clean curvy LFO entry edge.
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
Okay, everybody take a deep breath!
So for those that are even reading this, you may not be aware that this thread has a bit of history. There was a communication impasse, some of us felt like we weren’t able to discuss Nathan’s skating in anything less than glowing terms even when a discussion was started about how Nathan could improve, there was a point where I flat-out felt like I was unsafe posting because I was going to be jumped and yeah. Not really great for anyone. We’ve moved past that, and I’m not trying to call anyone out or assign blame. Obviously, I was also part of the problem! I could have phrased things better, absolutely.
Anyway. I really like Nathan. I actually talk about him more than any other skater, because I see so much potential in him. I happen to disagree with some consensus views on his current skill level, but as this is a fan fest, I’m not going to WELL ACTUALLY the convo. Courtesy! It’s a thing! If someone asks how Nathan can improve his spin levels or something, I’m more likely to chime in, simply because that kind of convo is more my thing than Nathan’s hair. (I get why he’s attractive, but aromantic asexual. I also just see “younger brother.”) But I’m not going to jump in and derail the convos on Nathan’s curls, because... that’s rude and part of what his fan fest is for.
But it’s also okay to be a fan and not agree 100% of the time! Like I said, I don’t share a number of consensus views here, but those haven’t been put into a debate, so I’m not going to derail or start a flamewar. But it is really tiring to be treated as though I’m always coming from a place of bad faith and am not a “real” fan just because I don’t 100% agree with the majority — and that’s also not okay per guidelines. I think, if I may be so bold as to presume, that that’s what cchen was driving at: that this thread has to allow more than one type of fan, and, moreover, consider that not every negative statement about Nathan is indicative of a person’s feelings about him.
If I don’t think Nathan is the most artistic skater, that actually doesn’t make me less of a fan; obviously, I wouldn’t word it like that, but at heart, that’s the truth. I do think Nathan is one of the most exciting skaters in a very long time and could very well redefine what’s considered “artistry” in men’s skating, and that’s part of why I’m a fan of his. That shouldn’t be treated as a less valid punch on the fan card or make me suspect, nor does it mean I shouldn’t receive the same courtesy I give to others. Which is really what a lot of this is about: people want to feel like their right to talk about Nathan’s skating among fellow fans is being respected, even if they say something as “negative” as “His landings were scratchy today.” It’s the jump from “you said something bad about Nathan” to “we don’t want you here” to, in the extreme, “you’re a bot who should just be ignored” that’s the problem.
And the idea of keeping a list of names of people who’ve somehow slighted Nathan is... well, it sounds a little creepy to me. Just like everyone here is a fan of Nathan, so are users in other fan fests. Mutual respect. Questioning the rotation of a jump is not an attack on Nathan as a skater or a person; it’s a legitimate line of inquiry that hits often and will happen to every skater. If someone simply doesn’t like Chen’s skating or thinks he was overmaked... that’s their opinion. If someone is talking about how Nathan kills puppies for fun, report that ASAP! [emoji23] But I think you’ll live longer and happier if you don’t fight every war. Just my two coins, take them or leave them.
Ultimately, you receive the respect you give. And whether or not it matters to you that minority voices feel uncomfortable is a question only you can answer. Me? I just want a nice, peaceful resolution. Nathan outperformed my worries today, but he didn’t turn in the skate of his life. There were obvious technical flaws. But I’m still thrilled he was able to get out from under the pressure and deliver a more-or-less solid short at Worlds, and we can all celebrate that, right?
Small medals
https://twitter.com/toshikon/status/976866242115129345
Short interview
https://twitter.com/TV4Sport/status/976857680856932352
https://twitter.com/toshikon/status/976866242115129345
Short interview
https://twitter.com/TV4Sport/status/976857680856932352
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2016
SO happy with his performance today! yay for Nathan! Here's hoping for a killer free skate! Go for it Nathan!!
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
Yes. That's what she said before Nathan started: "The man can probably do EVERYTHING. The program tells a lot about him. He's definitely different from what he was in the last season."
After he finished: "Yes, he's really serious about the Worlds. Now he's the best of the american skaters. He's very very good, he made 4t3t, 4f, 3a. It felt though like he had a second foot intterupting his landing on the 4f but it doesn't matter, these downgrades would be very small.
The main thing is that he's totally diffirent this season. The thing he was criticized for last season - jumps, jumps and only jumps - it's gone. Rafael and him, they made a huge, great job. He's absolutely different as a figure skater this season. The movements are completely different now, there's plastic starting to show up, the understanding of what he does on the ice. Very talented and beautiful skater. Finally there's a real star growing in the U.S. for the first time since Vancouver."
- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
- Joined
- Feb 28, 2018
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- Joined
- Feb 14, 2018
I'm not good at noticing such details... I can't differ his latest technique from the original. Could you maybe describe the difference or tell me what videos of him performing should I watch and to what should I pay the attention to actually notice the technique difference?
Sure! I didn’t notice it in real time, for the record. Blessed are the GIF-makers... seriously, I owe whomever made a GIF of Nathan’s 3A, as that’s how I spotted this. [emoji23]
Basically, there are two ways to take off for the axel, and I’ll let someone more adept with words explain and show the difference. Neither is “better,” for the record! In Yuzuru’s case, he uses the force generated from his blade and the moment of inertia at takeoff to vault into the air (this is why his 3A takeoffs don’t involve a change of foot); in Javier’s case, he uses the toe-pick to generate the launch, then brings himself into position once he’s stepped into the air. Again: neither takeoff is better than the other, and which entrance is used is a matter of what a skater was taught and prefers.
Nathan used to perform the 3A off a toe-pick release before changing to a Yuzuru-style skid entrance. (I have no idea why, but I assume Raf had a reason.) But look at this GIF from his OWG FS: see how the foot of his free leg taps the ice before snapping into position as Nathan begins to rotate? If that’s not a toe-pick release entrance to a 3A, I’m going blind. (Okay, my vision is already terrible....)
I checked his OWG short and I’m 99% sure that was also a toe-pick entrance, not a skid, although Nathan didn’t quite land that 3A. It looks to me like he’s gone back to his original takeoff technique, which... well, I have no idea what the reasoning was for changing it, but I think it’s a smart call.
Hope that helped!
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2006
While I mostly agree with you, I think the overall BV and PCS should've put Nathan a little bit more ahead of Kolyada than by just 1.5 points.
Also, curls!!
@Metis, thank you for your 3A elaboration and beautiful GIF.
but I have to disagree with you.
Nathan's current 3A technique is a more straight entry with heavy skid, which is significantly different from Yuzurus' 3A curvy entry with minimal skid (both of them skid somehow, just how they skid are vasty different). I'm only talking about entry here., Although many other aspects involved in 3A tech not just the entry.
my observation is that Nathan's current 3A is vastly different from Yuzuru's
And I get this conclusion not by looking at slow-mo or gif.
I actually watched both of them jumping 3A right in front of my eyes and specifically studied their entries (ice markings right in front of my eyes). I knew exactly how they take-off, so when i saw a slo-mo of their 3A, I knew the details.
EDIT: I could also go into length to elaborate more about their 3A mechanics, but I think we are all fans here and I assume none of us can actually jump a 3A ourselves. So we will never know the nuts and bolts of this jump. So I refrain from doing so.
The only thing I may suggest as a fan (to Nathan) is to perhaps study the 3A technique of skaters who has the best success with it.
EDIT: also if you wanna a little authority, Johny Weir once said in his commentary, something like, Nathan learned his Axel on a clean edge, Raf change it into a skid one (which is similar to my observation)
EDIT: also, I would suggest watch Nathan's counter+2A when he was little, there is "no change of leg"(as you put it)
EDIT: now I read the text from the GIF where you cited, I agree with Brain Orser "Yuzu does the 3A off an edge and Javi does it off a skid" this is also what I observed too.
i would say Nathan's coutner+2A is more close to Yuzuru's 3A and Nathan's current 3A is more close to Javi's 3A
EDIT: @Metis I read you post about 3A again just to be thorough, I thought you got a few concepts mixed up... but if talking about Nathan's Axel technique changes, the major one is change from a clean edge before (as in his counter+2A) to a skid 3A (after RAF), there are maybe some minor modifications here and there, but this is the major change so far, and his current 3A is still the skid one (after RAF).
but I have to disagree with you.
Nathan's current 3A technique is a more straight entry with heavy skid, which is significantly different from Yuzurus' 3A curvy entry with minimal skid (both of them skid somehow, just how they skid are vasty different). I'm only talking about entry here., Although many other aspects involved in 3A tech not just the entry.
my observation is that Nathan's current 3A is vastly different from Yuzuru's
And I get this conclusion not by looking at slow-mo or gif.
I actually watched both of them jumping 3A right in front of my eyes and specifically studied their entries (ice markings right in front of my eyes). I knew exactly how they take-off, so when i saw a slo-mo of their 3A, I knew the details.
EDIT: I could also go into length to elaborate more about their 3A mechanics, but I think we are all fans here and I assume none of us can actually jump a 3A ourselves. So we will never know the nuts and bolts of this jump. So I refrain from doing so.
The only thing I may suggest as a fan (to Nathan) is to perhaps study the 3A technique of skaters who has the best success with it.
EDIT: also if you wanna a little authority, Johny Weir once said in his commentary, something like, Nathan learned his Axel on a clean edge, Raf change it into a skid one (which is similar to my observation)
EDIT: also, I would suggest watch Nathan's counter+2A when he was little, there is "no change of leg"(as you put it)
EDIT: now I read the text from the GIF where you cited, I agree with Brain Orser "Yuzu does the 3A off an edge and Javi does it off a skid" this is also what I observed too.
i would say Nathan's coutner+2A is more close to Yuzuru's 3A and Nathan's current 3A is more close to Javi's 3A
EDIT: @Metis I read you post about 3A again just to be thorough, I thought you got a few concepts mixed up... but if talking about Nathan's Axel technique changes, the major one is change from a clean edge before (as in his counter+2A) to a skid 3A (after RAF), there are maybe some minor modifications here and there, but this is the major change so far, and his current 3A is still the skid one (after RAF).
While I mostly agree with you, I think the overall BV and PCS should've put Nathan a little bit more ahead of Kolyada than by just 1.5 points.
Also, curls!!
Nathan scored 104.XX at SA where he had a stepout on 3A.
When I saw the tweet by Jackie Wong this morning, I was expecting above 105 for Nathan.
However, it is really not all that important, since you cannot win by a great SP alone.
But you can definitely take yourself out of medal contention by a horrible SP.
Nathan has done what he needed today. For some reason, I think he will have more confidence in LP.
Getting the SP out of way must be a big relief for him.
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