New Blog: The Olympic Effect
- Thread starter AdamFan
- Start date
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
Agree with everything there.
It's actually rather impossible to disagree with any of that, in fact, if you actually have a clue.
It's actually rather impossible to disagree with any of that, in fact, if you actually have a clue.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
It's obvious author is not a Lysacek fan.... so Johnny fans will agree with what he writes there.
I like both Johnny and Evan, each for their own styles of skating. I agree with some of what the author says, but not all, and not the tone of the article.
I like both Johnny and Evan, each for their own styles of skating. I agree with some of what the author says, but not all, and not the tone of the article.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
It's early morning here and I don't have the time to read and digest all of it, but it gives me a few chuckles at this hour. And no one should take him seriously. They are a mixture of facts turned into fascetious (sp) fun.
I would imagine the writer has never participated in Sports before.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
There seems to be a universal belief among skating fans that USFS instructs their judges to inflate Lysacek's scores. The purported intent is that if black-wearing, Tanith-dating Lysacek wins a championship, then more American men will take a sudden interest in figure skating, boosting ticket sales and television viewership, thus making USFS rich.
This hope is absurd on its face. USFS officials -- not being idiots -- can't possibly believe this. I think the judges did the best they could, and this is how it happened to turn out. If there were conspiracies going on, they would have put Kimmie higher (one extra point and she would have finished ahead of Hacker, relieving USFS of any awkwardness in chosing the world team), and they would also have done better by darling-du-jour Caroline Z.
This hope is absurd on its face. USFS officials -- not being idiots -- can't possibly believe this. I think the judges did the best they could, and this is how it happened to turn out. If there were conspiracies going on, they would have put Kimmie higher (one extra point and she would have finished ahead of Hacker, relieving USFS of any awkwardness in chosing the world team), and they would also have done better by darling-du-jour Caroline Z.
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
I don't think that USFSA instructs the judges to inflate Evan's scores (I will say that judges have some fears of their own, though, and are often pressured by their National federation) but the organization and the judges clearly like Evan more than Johnny, for reasons outside of their skating ability. It is not an objective group.
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
A little OT, but this quote from the lead article tickled me.
). Michelle honors her father and mother, does not bear false witness, lie, or steal. She is not lustful, gluttonous, greedy, slothful, wrathful, Sneezy or Doc.
(OK, possibly she took the Lord’s name in vain when she fell on her triple flip in the 2002 Olympics.)
True. Michelle has taken run-of-the-mill political correctness and transformed it into an art form. Go Michelle!
False. This is the real Michelle (she is not that good an actress
). Michelle honors her father and mother, does not bear false witness, lie, or steal. She is not lustful, gluttonous, greedy, slothful, wrathful, Sneezy or Doc.(OK, possibly she took the Lord’s name in vain when she fell on her triple flip in the 2002 Olympics.)
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2007
Oh, Ms. Kwan is definitely lustful.
Mathman, I think what you say is right on the money. However, the fact that people were unhappy with how Weir placed really goes to the heart of the current with figure skating.
You see, fans, they judge the whole rather than the parts.. It looked like Weir had clean jumps, beautiful skating that was musical and Lysacek bungled his jumps a bit and his style was less musical. From the point of view of the whole package, the fans pegged Weir as the rightful winner.
However, that kind of armchair judging doesn't really apply to the COP anymore where programs are broken down into analyzable pieces each of which garners a certain number of points. So what happens is the fans judgement cannot possibly approach that of the judges unless they are COP experts. A rightful winner in the eyes of the fans is not necessarily that in the eyes of the judges. Many argue that judges' placement ought to somehow reflect viewer expectations, so that an intuitive viewer evaluation of who skated better can be validated. Supposedly, if viewers can have their intutions of who won confirmed, they feel more confident in the judging process and be more interested in watching competitions.
I think this can happen without dumbing down COP as long as criteria are defined more clearly. Skating skills, choreography, interpretation, performance and execution need to be explained to viewers more clearly. I should not have to visit a message board to figure out why Caroline Zhang had a lower PCS than the other top ladies because of skating skill, or why Evan's skating fulfills the artistic criteria of the judges just as much as Johnny's and beats Johnny's on the footwork! If there was an expert at Nationals who would go through all of these things in depth, then maybe people would be less confused about the judging results.
COP is complicated enough that wins are no longer understandable without an in-depth analysis. Once we get commentators to do a clear and effective one, skating will once again make sense. Even better, cases of obvious bias will be exposed. Judges will be shamed into bloating PCS scores, if their results wil later be analyzed. (Example - Commentator says: "Well gee Skater A got incredibly high scores for interpretation, however it is absolutely impossible to say that he skated a more musically sensitive program than skater B whose interpretation scores were somehow later. It is obvious that Skater A's score is inflated. )
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
That was a super post, Krenseby. I agree with every point you made except one. I don't share your optimism that the audience will be better satisfied when the commentators explain things better.
Actually, the same probelm -- the problem that the audience thinks one skater was clearly better than another, but the better skater comes out on the short end of the score -- occurs to some extent in other sports, too.
One football team can dominate another in every way -- more yardage, more first downs, greater time of possession, my offensive line beat up your defensive line -- yet somehow loses the game. Fans understand why the "wrong" team ended up ahead on the scoreboard.
But if this happened a lot (it doesn't in football), people would start saying that the scoring system needs to be changed better to reflect what actually happens on the the field. Or they would lose interest altogether.
Actually, the same probelm -- the problem that the audience thinks one skater was clearly better than another, but the better skater comes out on the short end of the score -- occurs to some extent in other sports, too.
One football team can dominate another in every way -- more yardage, more first downs, greater time of possession, my offensive line beat up your defensive line -- yet somehow loses the game. Fans understand why the "wrong" team ended up ahead on the scoreboard.
But if this happened a lot (it doesn't in football), people would start saying that the scoring system needs to be changed better to reflect what actually happens on the the field. Or they would lose interest altogether.
- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
Are these people ruling the outcomes of competitions?
Back when the tie was between Baiul and Kerrigan, the questionable 6.0 system was based on the Presentation mark to break the score. Baiul's 'look how cute I am' and it's nice that my double foot jump landings didn't bother anyone, gave her the edge to win. The inflated technical scores were high enough to keep her abreast with Kerrigan, but Jan Hoffman thought Baiul was the better despite the sloppy jumps. A huge case for disbelieving Clean Programs are important.
In regard to Johnny/Evan's case, maybe the CoP should let the audience decide in case of a tie. Of course, that wont happen, so it's basically a 'let's move on' for Johnny's Angels.
Joe
- Joined
- Jun 21, 2003
Fans don't get to vote for the winner of a competition. But they do get to vote -- with their feet, their pocketbooks, and their TV remotes -- on the sport itself.
To me, it is not good for the sport when the audience feels that one person clearly outskated the other, then some mathematical mumbo-jumbo comes up on the screen and they give the medal to the other guy. This will not encourage people to learn more about the new judging system, it will just make them think, same old same old, figure skating judging is a crock.
But worse than that, I think is becoming harder and harder to turn a blind eye to the direction that the CoP is pushing the sport. Johnny Weir is the poster boy for the sad fact that the more points a skater gets, the less interesting, the less beautiful, the less unique, the less satisfying to the viewer his skating becomes.
To me, it is not good for the sport when the audience feels that one person clearly outskated the other, then some mathematical mumbo-jumbo comes up on the screen and they give the medal to the other guy. This will not encourage people to learn more about the new judging system, it will just make them think, same old same old, figure skating judging is a crock.
But worse than that, I think is becoming harder and harder to turn a blind eye to the direction that the CoP is pushing the sport. Johnny Weir is the poster boy for the sad fact that the more points a skater gets, the less interesting, the less beautiful, the less unique, the less satisfying to the viewer his skating becomes.
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2004
Good points.OT- I don't know if it was mathematical mumbo-jumbo at the GPF but I thought that Takahasi should have won over Lambiel. To me from what I could see he was the better skater in the LP that night, yeah I know his spins were not up to par but whose are when it comes to Lambiel. I was quite suprised that Lambiel won. Makes me think that mabye the wrong skaters have been winning gold under COP just like 6.0. I am curious how the COP defenders feel about the system now after the Nationals
fiasco.
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- Joined
- Jul 11, 2003
I can not say the audience in St. Paul was not in favor of the result. Evan's fans backed him and Johnny's fans backed him. The majority of 'who are they?' fans didn't give much of a hoot. The results were verbal and I don't think any but the ardent fans remained for the victory ceremony.
IMO, ties in figure skating whether in 6.0 or CoP just don't make sense to anyone.
Joe
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
The article writes : The international judges love Weir and awarded him two Grand Prix victories, while Lysacek couldn’t even win Skate America (Figure Skating’s version of the American Cup a.k.a. SCAM Cup). It sure is convenient to ignore the track record - Evan with two World medals, always in top 5; Johnny without World medals, and not always in top 5. Now, I infinitely prefer Johnny's skating to Evan's, to methinks that if there were preferential treatment by USFSA (a huuuuge if), it would have more to do with the medal count rather than image and all that.
ITA! Also, in all prior Evan-Johnny matchups, the better skater ended up ahead. There is certainly no way that Johnny deserved to win Nats last season; just as there was no way that Evan deserved to win Nats in '04, '05 or '06. Same internationally -- when Johnny skated better, he placed higher (CoC gold to Evan's silver); when Evan skated better he placed higher (GPF)
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