New choreographer for Sasha? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

New choreographer for Sasha?

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
boggartlaura said:
Reposting this material without the author's permission is illegal.

No it's not. If people want the information to remain secret, they shouldn't post at all. Also an online post is not copyrighted material nor is it subject to sale.


As for Sasha going to David Wilson b.c she wants an OGM. Well, it's sad that it took a slap in the face at TEB to prompt Sasha to wake up. If she really wanted an OGM, she would have listened to Miss Robin Wagner and worked on her basics. Sasha was too stubborn and headstrong to do that and now she runs the risk of being passed by. I love Sasha's skating but she put herself in the hole. I don't think David Wilson choreography is going to magically improve Sasha's skating skills and jumps. Though maybe in the judges' eyes at the moment, a David Wilson program is worth 5 more points.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
soogar said:
As for Sasha going to David Wilson b.c she wants an OGM. Well, it's sad that it took a slap in the face at TEB to prompt Sasha to wake up. If she really wanted an OGM, she would have listened to Miss Robin Wagner and worked on her basics. Sasha was too stubborn and headstrong to do that and now she runs the risk of being passed by. I love Sasha's skating but she put herself in the hole. I don't think David Wilson choreography is going to magically improve Sasha's skating skills and jumps. Though maybe in the judges' eyes at the moment, a David Wilson program is worth 5 more points.


:rock: :rock: :rock: :rock:

That's right! Couldn't have said it better myself. Too little, too late? Stay tuned.
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
soogar said:
she put herself in the hole. I don't think David Wilson choreography is going to magically improve Sasha's skating skills and jumps. Though maybe in the judges' eyes at the moment, a David Wilson program is worth 5 more points.

Why is Cohen in a hole, seriously, no one can beat Irina. Judges have consistently ignore Cohen's flaw basic skating skills and reward her over Arakawa, so Cohen is a sure bet for silver.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
gezando said:
Why is Cohen in a hole, seriously, no one can beat Irina. Judges have consistently ignore Cohen's flaw basic skating skills and reward her over Arakawa. so Cohen is a sure bet for silver.

The difference at TEB between Shiz and Cohen was VERY small. Also, Shiz beat Cohen in the long. So I don't agree with you. It may, however, finally appear that Cohen is getting "docked" for things she didn't before. A wake up call for sure.
 

gezando

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 30, 2003
RD

In TEB lp Arakawa made a mistake in her triple lutz w/o falling therefore no mandatory deduction. Cohen fell on the triple sal therefore received a mandatory deduction, two foot two other jumps, wobble bobble in 2 other landings. Judges can't out right ignore the fall and minus one from her, w/o the mandatory deduction, Cohen would be ahead of Arakawa, so relatively speaking judges are still overwhelmingly ignoring Sasha's flaws, preferring Cohen over Arakawa.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
gezando said:
RD

In TEB lp Arakawa made a mistake in her triple lutz w/o falling therefore no mandatory deduction. Cohen fell on the triple sal therefore received a mandatory deduction, two foot two other jumps, wobble bobble in 2 other landings. Judges can't out right ignore the fall and minus one from her, w/o the mandatory deduction, Cohen would be ahead of Arakawa, so relatively speaking judges are still overwhelmingly ignoring Sasha's flaws, preferring Cohen over Arakawa.

AH, I see what you are saying now. But I would need to closely watch the performances, then look at the breakdown of the scores to really figure things out.
 

swannanoa54

On the Ice
Joined
Aug 19, 2003
First of all I thought the cuts from R&J were horrendous. I liked her exhibition R&J cuts better. The ending was drawn out for her to do her "20 spins in 20 seconds". I despise that about the program. However, after watching TEB, the ONLY thing I didn't like was the fall. I thought her program was excellent even with the "smaller" mistakes and could only get better as she got more comfortable with it. Let's remember that she was just coming off her hip injury or whatever. She did pretty darn well, IMO.

To change choreography at this point (and I don't much care for some of Wilson's stuff) seems sad. It's almost like going back instead of forward. At the '02 Olys she changed her choreo for Carmen while skating it. She'd be more secure if she stuck with the program, with a choreographer, with a coach. IMO, once again, this isn't a good move at all.

Plus this is a rumor. Where's the fact? IF she is doing this, I hope it works for her. I just have to shake my head and wonder what's going on. Wilson isn't gonna help her stay on her feet or have more secure edges. I guess I'm just flabbergasted by this.
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
This is another attempt at a "quick fix".

Better choreography can help a lame program like R&J but only if the skater's basic skating is capable of doing the more intricate choreography and staying on her feet. In Sasha's case, I don't think that is the case. Sasha couldn't skate the bare bones R&J choreo cleanly, so I have little faith she can do execute more complex steps cleanly.

Joannie Rochette's programs were done by David Wilson and haven't helped her get higher TES or PCS scores. Buttle and Wilson are a great pair, but Buttle is also intensely musical and he squeezes every little nuance out of the music and choreo. Sasha has never seemed to me to be particularly musical or anywhere near as expressive as Buttle.

What Sasha needs is stronger stroking, and better edge control and jump technique. She should have been working on those things intensively since last year. The real problem is that Irina is outskating Sasha by a 20-point margin, and new choreography isn't going to change that.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
gezando said:
Why is Cohen in a hole, seriously, no one can beat Irina. Judges have consistently ignore Cohen's flaw basic skating skills and reward her over Arakawa, so Cohen is a sure bet for silver.

Well the judges just don't like Arakawa because they ignored her by putting Mao Asada ahead of her.

Cohen is not a lock for silver. Nor is Irina a lock for gold. Though Irina is definitely skating *now* compared to the other girls like an OGM favorite. However most of the other skaters don't bring their big game to the GP events. Time will tell whether Irina can keep her performance level up for the Olympics. Even though she hit her jumps, her performances have been rather lackluster, especially in her spins. She's not a machine and it appears that she is becoming visibly fatigued.

As for Sasha, usually she does well when she makes a big change so maybe this will help. Wilson did wonders for Miki Ando. Though Miki already was a considerably better skater than Sasha. All Miki needed to do was focus on the non-jump elements because she always had beautiful flow and great spins and now everyone is seeing that for themselves. Miki is a much better spinner than Irina and Miki's Biellman is better.

Sasha is scared because at this rate, she might be looking at a bronze medal instead of the gold she craves. While the judges might hold Sasha up in relation to other skaters, they've already shown that they favor Irina and Sasha will be judged fairly/or unfairly when compared to Irina. Also other skaters are building up momentum to the Olympics. She can't afford to lose ground to them.
 

soogar

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 18, 2003
euterpe said:
Joannie Rochette's programs were done by David Wilson and haven't helped her get higher TES or PCS scores. Buttle and Wilson are a great pair, but Buttle is also intensely musical and he squeezes every little nuance out of the music and choreo. Sasha has never seemed to me to be particularly musical or anywhere near as expressive as Buttle.
.

Well Joannie Rochette looks like a soccer player on the ice and has absolutely no style or grace and the music and choreo Wilson chooses for her accentuates these negative points. Watching Joannie who has the physique of a body builder skate to this tinkly piano music is quite painful and really gives her the look of a bull in a china shop.

At least Sasha and her "Thumbelina" ballerina in a music box look will suit the annoying tinkly piano music that Wilson picked for all the ladies skaters he did this year.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The real problem is that Irina is outskating Sasha by a 20-point margin, and new choreography isn't going to change that.

I agree that that is Cohen's problem. But I really do think new choreography can make a difference, IF you can execute it. For Cohen it will come down to being able to put it all together when it counts. Can she do it, and esp. at the OLYs? Stranger things have happened.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Cohen is not a lock for silver. Nor is Irina a lock for gold. Though Irina is definitely skating *now* compared to the other girls like an OGM favorite. However most of the other skaters don't bring their big game to the GP events. Time will tell whether Irina can keep her performance level up for the Olympics. Even though she hit her jumps, her performances have been rather lackluster, especially in her spins. She's not a machine and it appears that she is becoming visibly fatigued.

Yes, I agree. Let's see how she does at the GPF. And Cohen is ANYTHING but a lock for silver :laugh: she's not even a lock for a podium spot. Harsh, maybe, but true.
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Someone at CoR said the event was on the anniversary of her mother-in-law's death and Irina was visibly upset. She still managed to total over 130 points in the FS and an over-198 point total score, even topping her CoC total.
 

Enero

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
soogar said:
Though Irina is definitely skating *now* compared to the other girls like an OGM favorite...Even though she hit her jumps, her performances have been rather lackluster, especially in her spins. She's not a machine and it appears that she is becoming visibly fatigued.

I agree. Though Irina was "on" in her short at COC. She seemed a bit off in the lp, particularly on a couple of her jumps. One was landed awkwardly and the other was two-footed. So Irina hasn't been as perfect as people have been saying.

On topic: If true, I hope the new choregraphy helps. I don't think Sasha is a total loss. I think her programs need a little tweaking and then she needs to execute them, cleanly and with speed and confidence. Can she do this? Her record says she can't, but who knows records are made to be broken or in this case changed. Maybe we'll be surprised. I sure am hoping that we are.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
soogar said:
Well Joannie Rochette looks like a soccer player on the ice and has absolutely no style or grace and the music and choreo Wilson chooses for her accentuates these negative points. Watching Joannie who has the physique of a body builder skate to this tinkly piano music is quite painful and really gives her the look of a bull in a china shop.

At least Sasha and her "Thumbelina" ballerina in a music box look will suit the annoying tinkly piano music that Wilson picked for all the ladies skaters he did this year.
I was wondering if anyone would come right out and say this. Yes, Joannie would be better served by choosing fuller and more robust music.

MM :)
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
realistic51 said:
To change choreography at this point (and I don't much care for some of Wilson's stuff) seems sad. It's almost like going back instead of forward. At the '02 Olys she changed her choreo for Carmen while skating it. She'd be more secure if she stuck with the program, with a choreographer, with a coach. IMO, once again, this isn't a good move at all.

Robin Wagner also changed her Swan Lake in 04 which she did well in the QR but faltered badly in the Free. She does have some time left to adjust to Wilson's new variations on a theme. I just wish there were more time to change the music from R&J to Malaguena. She's lucky that the little Japanese tyke is not eligible to skate the Olys. The crowds in Torino would go wild for Mao.

Plus this is a rumor. Where's the fact? IF she is doing this, I hope it works for her. I just have to shake my head and wonder what's going on. Wilson isn't gonna help her stay on her feet or have more secure edges. I guess I'm just flabbergasted by this.

Good grief, this is not written in stone? She may not be in Toronto? Well, if it is true then who will be watching the practice in California? Morozov?

You are right, Wilson will not help her stay on her feet, but that is for every skater. When a skater is out there on the ice alone with thousands watching and TV cameras moving about, it's not easy to control the nerves.

Joe
 

dancindiva03

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 22, 2004
flowjo35 said:
David Wilson has very demanding choreography. Can Sasha incorporate this within her program, skate clean and do the jumps? I guess we will see. Hopefully it will work out for her.

That is an excellent point. Remember how much content Wagner had to remove from Swan Lake in order for Cohen to skate it cleanly? As much as I think she needs better choreography, better transitions, etc, I don't necessarily think she can handle it and keep her jumps consistant. Besides, she clearly likes doing the same old stuff over and over again, is she going to be comfortable with more intricate choreography in time for the Olympics? I just don't see it working for her.
 

mzheng

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 16, 2005
I can see international judgers like Wilson's choreography. Does he chose musics for skaters too? It is just like a new different style than Russian ones - that we see so many in the scenes. But still you can see the similarity in these choreographies. Just look at their programs skated first min you can tell Rochett and Jeff s programs come from the same choreographer, those moves accent on music.....though I'm not sure if it is because they have the similar body line or moves. I just watched her once, can't resist the thought of Jeff's programs. There is similarity there.
 

jesslily

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 4, 2004
No matter how good or so-so of David Wilson's creative abililty, for Sasha it won't hurt to see and try another person's input. For the past 2 or 3 years her programs are mainly from TT or Nicolai's, the programs are baiscally in one format. Her R&J program just dosen't sing, even she added more turns here and there at Paris.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
It doesn't seem to matter whether Irina skates cleanly or not, she gets scored very, very high just the same. Sasha has never skated a clean FS in a major competition and the judges don't cut her any slack.

Having better choreography is great, but if it is still not skated cleanly, Sasha will not gain any ground on Irina. Sasha has some basic skating issues that never seen to get any serious attention. Instead, she tinkers with music and choreography, but the end result is usually the same: it changes the packaging but not the performance.
 
Top