New IJS System Improvements

[cheerio2]

Yes and how are each section participating equal weight towards the aesthetic when the sections are so disproportionate? They don't participate equal weight to the performance that's the problem. If backloaded programs were accurately penalized for the lack of proportions and for the unability to express the music and the theme, there wouldn't be need to actually require a number of jumps in the 1st half, but it is not happening so then that's just what you need to do.


I don't think requiring that for example 2 jumping passes must be in the 1st half kills all creativity and makes the programs all the same. It actually still leaves a lot of liberty to put more in the 1st half or on the contrary to still backload 6 jumping passes which is still a lot. And if for some reason you want a concept with all your spins and footwork before the halfway point, i'm sure you can still do it and have the two jumps back to back just before the 2mins.

I just find it insincere to defend the backloading of all the jumps in the name of artistic freedom when none of the skaters doing it are doing it for artistic reasons and when the defense of those skaters have been "but they are just using the system, they are playing the game".

Again, people skating programs with evenly spaced out jumps are also doing it for TES reasons, so it's not possible to claim that all evenly spaced programs are done for artistic reasons. I'm just saying that programs can be artistic or not artistic no matter where the jumps are placed.

Just because a section doesn't have jumps doesn't mean it's not contributing equal weight to the overall aesthetic. That's like saying a novel must have an action scene in each chapter in order for each chapter to contribute equally to the overall story. In fact, the overall story would be weakened if each chapter had to look the same. If proportion = jumps as you think, then the ISU would have just come out and said "contributing equal jumps to the overall program," not "contributing equal weight to the overall aesthetic."

As viewers, we've seen decades of programs where the skater starts out with a few arm motions, then proceeds to stroke around the rink toward their most difficult jumping pass. A totally backloaded program starting out with footwork and choreo was totally unique and refreshing to me, and made me think about the different artistic possibilities of a program. You want to require jumps in the front to force the one or two skaters in the world capable of doing a totally backloaded program to do a conventional program layout that 99% of skaters do and have done historically? That really decreases the diversity of programs IMO. If you don't like to see 2 minutes of footwork, you can always skip that skater and watch the 99% of slayers with evenly spaced jumps. But why should everyone have to watch all the skaters using the same conventional layout just because that is your preference?

 

[Mawwerg]

I like current system, I think at Olympics all 15 medals got the right owners and overall the system is working, so I'm quite anxious about upcoming changes.

 

[daphenaxa]

But why should everyone have to watch all the skaters using the same conventional layout just because that is your preference?

My point was that the current skaters doing the backloading are getting all rewards for doing so in terms of TES point with no negative consequences on their PCS marks in terms of choreography, theme, balance etc. even when the backloading affect the quality of the performance, the unity of the program and demonstrate no artistic vision but a purely mathematic vision.
You will always find one person that is an exception and that actually uses the backloading effectively as an artistic concept, but with the backloading starting to become an epidemic still with no consequence on the 2nd mark, i do think ISU has to be proactive and not let it become a tano situation. Sorry.

As for personal preference, in the case of Zagitova for example, the backloading is the least of my problems when it comes to my dislike of her skating. There are also many things i dislike in skating in general that i don't really think need to be changed just to please me.

 

[jenaj]

How about making the free skate free? The only technical points should be for jumps and spins. The rest is just presentation--everything lumped together: SS, Tr/ P-E, etc. Judge it 1-10 and factor it up. Ranking is OK. Things like bonuses for jumps late in the program or requiring some jumps in the first half interfere with creativity.

 

[bobbob]

I have nothing against backloading, especially if it builds up intensity and adds to the choreography. But that does not mean it is worthy of a 10% base value bonus. A backloaded program is not inherently better (or worse) than a front-loaded or balanced one. If it adds A LOT to the program, maybe bump up the composition mark a little bit. But we want the best skate, with the best quality product on the ice to win and backloading bonus points is artificially pushing skates based on how much stamina the skater shows and not the quality of skating.

 

[gkelly]

I have nothing against backloading, especially if it builds up intensity and adds to the choreography. But that does not mean it is worthy of a 10% base value bonus.

The automatic bonus doesn't so much reward the choreographic choice as the ability to do jumps on tired legs.

Jumps early in the program tend to earn better GOE; jumps later in the program compensate for being smaller and less reliable by starting with a slightly higher base value.

Judges who think placement of the jumps enhances the choreography can reward it in PCS. Those who think it detracts from the choreography can penalize in PCS. But the athletic feat gets rewarded on its own merits.

 

[bobbob]

The automatic bonus doesn't so much reward the choreographic choice as the ability to do jumps on tired legs.

Jumps early in the program tend to earn better GOE; jumps later in the program compensate for being smaller and less reliable by starting with a slightly higher base value.

Judges who think placement of the jumps enhances the choreography can reward it in PCS. Those who think it detracts from the choreography can penalize in PCS. But the athletic feat gets rewarded on its own merits.

So you think it is fair that smaller and less reliable jumps are getting a higher base value than ones with higher quality, simply because they are in an "arbitrary" second half of the program and skaters may feel more tired while doing them? My point is the second half bonus is rewarding an ability that does not show in the quality of skating. If it is not removed, we will continue to smaller and lower quality jumps beating higher quality jumps because the skater was tired when doing them. I would rather have higher quality jumps whenever a skater feels fit to the music.

 

[Metis]

I think the backloading issue is still being ironed out. It sounds like there’s a desire for programs to have more thoughtful distribution of the elements and “balance,” but we’ve also heard there’s talk of limiting the backhalf bonus instead of removing it altogether. It’s not clear what will happen there, but what I am hoping for is greater flexibility in layout design, as there’s a rigidity imposes by the min-max game that no longer allows for building a layout from the ground up; instead, it’s taking the optimal layout and choreographing it to a given piece of music in the most effective way possible. It’s not a question of where a given skater’s step sequence will be from program to program but how it will be performed to the music and the order of the required features. That’s... something I’d like to see go.

Reducing BV and moving the points to GOE spread strikes me as an inelegant solution to some of the common critiques (better to rotate a quad and fall than not attempt one in particular). Just looking at the jumps with current BVs and SoV and playing with the +/-5 scale, you can see how “swingy” TES becomes. And while the mandatory negative GOE penalties struck me as fair at current BVs, once you move 30-40% of current BV into GOE, -3 GOE for a step out has some severe consequences. Not necessarily unfair ones, but inarguably more severe than they are at present. (Which could have been fixed through mandatory deductions.) -5 GOE for a fall when GOE is 10% of BV is way too much over-correction for the “better to get the rotations and fall” issue; while it definitely solves that specific issue, it leaves me even less excited about women’s skating, as now the risk-reward game is brutal. Really, the expanded GOE range had potential, but lowering BV and simply moving those points into GOE is a disaster, as now +3 is 0. And if BVs are going to be reduced across all elements to move prior BVs into the GOE range, the BV for spins and other non-jump elements is going to be almost comical. (I don’t even want to talk about the choreo sequence... it’d be amusing if you could finally lose points there, though.)

The way to solve the TES problem isn’t to reduce BV (the quad reduction still does nothing — when the maximum amount of points you can earn is for a quad, you will continue to see them dominate), but to change PCS factoring to bring the two scores into alignment. And also to provide clarity and actual guidance beyond “average,” “above average,” etc., for those marks, which doesn’t seem to be in the cards. Instead, it sounds like base technical scores are going to be dragged down, even though the potential ceiling is higher, though I don’t have much confidence that the major issues GOEs have wrought will actually be fixed — how will the bullet points be divided, and with +4 GOE being a tipping point, how much confidence is warranted that this won’t turn into PCS by another name, no matter how transparent the GOE bullets?

Why only target the risk-reward for falls and step outs but not edge calls and under rotations? Are those severe enough? Does it matter if not enforced? Et cetera. There are... elements of a decent system in here, but I’m not optimistic.

 

[cheerio2]

but with the backloading starting to become an epidemic still with no consequence on the 2nd mark, i do think ISU has to be proactive and not let it become a tano situation. Sorry.

It's not an epidemic when exactly 1 person in more than a decade that the 10% bonus has existed has ever skated a totally backloaded program. It's the 99.9999% of other programs starting out with stroking and a jumping pass that is an epidemic.

 

[Shayuki]

It's not an epidemic when exactly 1 person in more than a decade that the 10% bonus has existed has ever skated a totally backloaded program. It's the 99.9999% of other programs starting out with stroking and a jumping pass that is an epidemic.

Agreed. One single person does something differently from literally everyone else and suddenly it's "an epidemic". Only one skater did not start her FS with a jump at the Olympics. Yet that one skater doing something differently somehow is the problem.

Do we really want everyone skating the exact same elements in the exact same order?

 

[daphenaxa]

It's not an epidemic when exactly 1 person in more than a decade that the 10% bonus has existed has ever skated a totally backloaded program. It's the 99.9999% of other programs starting out with stroking and a jumping pass that is an epidemic.

one person? i'm sorry what? http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpf1718/data0605.pdf

 

[Nightcrawler]

one person? i'm sorry what? http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpf1718/data0605.pdf

Exactly one person, yes. These are juniors who we don't know if:
- they'll make it to the senior ranks
- they'll do so keeping their jumps
- they'll keep their programs backloaded
- they'll hit their backloaded programs consistently
- they'll win often enough for this trend to become popular

For all we know, half of them can suffer stress fractures, the other half can lose their jumps over puberty or Osmond can become a rock and dominate next quad. I'd like to wait for the new Russian phenoms to become a reality before worrying too much.
What I do find worrying, though, is the fact that one single program is so threatening to the integrity of the sport as opposed to the thousands that preceded it and had the exact same layout.

 

[rikaquegira]

I think they should get rid of the 10% bonus altogether, specially in the SP.
Skaters should be able to construct their programs however they want.
When you give a bonus for putting jumps in the second half it is obvious people will try doing as many jumps as possible in the second half to gain more and more points, it doesn't matter if that will affect the balance of the program. Of course, in a perfect world, the skater would gain the bonus but lose a little on PCS. But that's not the case.
But that's not really the main issue.
To me the main issue is that I see this bonus as an interference with the creative freedom of the skaters. Because you're influencing the skaters to build their programs a certain way(with the jumps in the second half). If someone is not following this trend for whatever reason they'll automatically be in disadvantage.
Let's say this rule keeps on for years to come. In the future probably all programs from top skaters at least, will be backloaded. And that would be okay if it was a spontaneous trend not a manufacturered obligation in order to win.

I'd also like to see more emphasis on correct technique. I wish correct jumps were more valued. This has been discussed here already so I won't say much.
In order to reward perfect jumps we need a tech panel actually doing their job with perfection, which I don't think I've seen this entire season. They say reviewing jumps is a difficult task because of camera angles, small screens, low quality video, little time... So the ISU needs to fix all of this ASAP, if that is true, maybe it is just an excuse. I would expect them to have the best resources at least in major events like Worlds and Olympics.

And please do something about the arms over the head! Yes, it's more difficult, yes, it should be rewarded, but they should have an accurate and very specific description of how a good tano/rippon looks like. Because simply putting the arm/s above the head in a very awkward position should not count as a GOE bullet.

Oh, yeah, review GOE bullets. And stop with this ambiguity of "guidelines", saying "here are some rules but they're not really rules, you can basically interpret them however you want and judge however you like" is not a good policy.

 

[Cindy1983]

First, I've been critical of rotation credit because there is no proof that the judges take it consistently across skaters or it they unfairly penalize or give the benefit of the doubt based on reputation.

Transitions seem to me to be a loophole. They are technically in the PCS when it comes to the COP, they can also factor into the tech score as part of the jump. People complain about inflated PCS which is valid, but I think this loophole can allow the judges to take a 'twofor' in the sense that they can choose to give points in 2 different columns. This inflates scores even more than an inflated PCS.

Instead of BVs and +/-GOE, just give each element a value and deduct from that. The value for the element is what it is worth if done perfectly. A fall gets the worst deduction (almost a lost element). If they do an easier jump in its place, then they use the value for that jump and deduct. I'm using jumps b/c they're easier to use for an example, but you could apply it to any other element.

I think they should do 3 medals, one for the short which is supposed to be a tech program, one for the long (artistic) program, and one for the overall. It recognizes skaters that were good in one part of the competition, but not the other. The overall would be given based on the AVERAGE of the 2 programs. This way the best skater throughout the competition -- across 2 programs-- would win. Putting the top 2 aside, take the skaters from 2nd - 14th and see where they place. Is there someone better at math than I that can do this? For this to work, the short needs to be a TRUE tech program and the long needs to be a TRUE artistic program. This means they get evaluated with different criteria.

 

[daphenaxa]

Exactly one person, yes. These are juniors who we don't know if:
- they'll make it to the senior ranks
- they'll do so keeping their jumps
- they'll keep their programs backloaded
- they'll hit their backloaded programs consistently
- they'll win often enough for this trend to become popular

For all we know, half of them can suffer stress fractures, the other half can lose their jumps over puberty or Osmond can become a rock and dominate next quad. I'd like to wait for the new Russian phenoms to become a reality before worrying too much.
What I do find worrying, though, is the fact that one single program is so threatening to the integrity of the sport as opposed to the thousands that preceded it and had the exact same layout.

What happens in junior always prefigures what will happen in senior. Those girls will become senior next year, even if things happen to them (hopefully not) all juniors and seniors are now backloading more and more because mathematically that's how you win even against better jumps. It was the same with the tanos. The highest ranked juniors were doing it and then everyone started doing them.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

1. Only Daria will even be senior eligible next year
2. Daria is ALWAYS underscored on PCS. She has to do something in order to remain competitive. She's a magnificent skater but judges don't realize that. So, backloading helps get her points, and she can do it well! WHY NOT DO IT???
3. Don't pull the "it's not artistic" trick. that's just a lie. Look at Alena Kostornaya's program. So wonderfully artistic AND backloaded.
4. By "everyone started doing them" that's not true. Barely anyone can tano/rippon all or most of their jumps or fully backload. Only the Russian girls can... some skaters can do a few tanos. But they did that before, too! (eg. Liza Tuktamysheva on her 2A)

 

[cheerio2]

What happens in junior always prefigures what will happen in senior. Those girls will become senior next year, even if things happen to them (hopefully not) all juniors and seniors are now backloading more and more because mathematically that's how you win even against better jumps. It was the same with the tanos. The highest ranked juniors were doing it and then everyone started doing them.

No it doesn't, especially when looking at jumps. But even if all (it looks like 2) of the Russian junior girls were able to make it to seniors, keep their jumps, perform backloaded programs successfully, etc., that still pales in comparison to the 99.9999% of programs starting out with a jumping pass.

A jump with +1 GOE will always win against a 0 GOE jump with 10% bonus, so it's just not true that a jump with bonus will "mathematically win" against a better jump. The bonus of full backloading is very small compared to the risk. Zagitova got 4.6 bonus points for fully backloading a max difficulty program, that's only an advantage of 2.3 points over someone who spreads their jumps out evenly. Lol. But ok. The fact that only 1 person in history has done a fully backloaded FS is because the other skaters and their coaches were just too dense to figure out that they could gain 2.3 points by cleanly skating a max difficulty 7 triple program with 2 lutzes, 2 flips including a 3L-3Lo combo fully backloaded.

 

[Shayuki]

What happens in junior always prefigures what will happen in senior. Those girls will become senior next year, even if things happen to them (hopefully not) all juniors and seniors are now backloading more and more because mathematically that's how you win even against better jumps. It was the same with the tanos. The highest ranked juniors were doing it and then everyone started doing them.

Mathematically, you don't. Medvedeva backloaded more but switched off that layout. Why? She struggled. Backloading bonus is very tiny and overstated. It's only significant enough with combos. With solo jumps, even around a 0.5 GOE difference is enough to make backloading not be worth it. You have to be able to deliver the jumps with top quality when backloading, and most skaters cannot do it.

Mathematically, if you just backload all 3 combos and do the other 4 jumps in the first half, you really don't lose a whole lot against a full backload. But even this - doing all combos on the second half - is not something most can do.

 

[daphenaxa]

3. Don't pull the "it's not artistic" trick. that's just a lie. Look at Alena Kostornaya's program. So wonderfully artistic AND backloaded.

Kostornaia is wonderfully artistic in spite of the backloading she can kinda pull it off because she has fantastic SS and musicality, that's really not the case of other skaters who are doing it.

Anyways they will now apparently completely scrap the 10% bonus so we will see if all those insanely artistic girls keep doing all jumps in the second half only for artistic purposes...
I still think it would have been better to keep the 10% to reward the people able to jump more in the second half but to put a limit on it instead of completely removing it.