I'll download them from fsvids.net or youtube :thumbsup:
New U.S. Nationals/decline of figure skating article
- Thread starter Mathman
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I'll download them from fsvids.net or youtube :thumbsup:
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- Mar 19, 2006
I don't read that much, particularly peoples perception of a society that has been changing, and in addition to over 75 years ago. But if you like reading, here -
http://www.youmeworks.com/shynesstocharisma.html
You and I are much to young to remember when the worlds majority considered the earth to be the center of the universe
(joe might
just kidding Joe
), but that has been changed by better understanding of reality. There are reasons we continue to learn.
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
from that page.
"Charisma has also been studied as a set of behaviors/traits; for example, a modern psychological approach posits that charisma is basically aggregative, a conglomeration of distinct personality traits that meld well in certain individuals to form the broad quality known as charisma. Theatrically, charisma can sometimes be "performed" on-stage and in films, and is encapsulated in both verbal and non-verbal communication."
Remember the context her, Figure Skating performances.
I stick with a 98% disagree.
Sasha Cohen in Dark Eyes - very charismatic.
She was always charismatic, she just developped it more.
Can you find me a skater that became charismatic?
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- Joined
- Mar 19, 2006
As we have both been reading, charisma is ultimately defined by perception - relativity of the individual observing, so a definitive may not be possible. but....
Yuka Sato became more charismatic after she went pro IMO.
Kimmie Miessner is becoming more charismatic as time goes one, indicating she is learning it IMO.
And if one can be charismatic once, yet another time not be charismatic, then it is evident that it can be controlled IMO. An act of a person can dictate whether they are or not. But all of that is in the article I posted the link as well as some mention in the Wikki link you posted.
I watched her 2007 SP and LP. IMO, she is FANTASTIC artistically. If she lands those jumps, she can medal, IMO.
I agree...but she has jump problems that go beyond nerves. IMHO, she'll just have to "get lucky" as well as keep the nerves under control...which she did both perfectly well here at US nats. Can she repeat at 4CC (if she's going) and again at Worlds? We'll see. She's nice to watch but I don't think she's cut out for competition. When she DOES get lucky, though, she's definitely in the hunt.
That's right! The perception of the observing individual is a big factor. But I think Sasha and Michelle captivated a lot of people.
Yes, she became more charismatic. But she always had this virtue.
Katarina Witt and Sasha Cohen come to my mind. They captured the judges and public and even if their programs were less challenging (for Sasha just in terms of jumps, because her spins and spirals are amazing) than others, they won. Well, Sasha didn't win, but was always high in the rankings.
If Alissa skate clean, the judges will give her high PCS. She is able to capture the judges and public, for the little I have seen. Maybe she won't win against the big 3axels of Mao or the triple/triple of Yu Na, but who knows what could happen?
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True. I'd wait until she can get those jumps under control though before I compare her to the likes of Yuna/Mao/Miki. (Although, to be fair, Miki has struggled with jumps herself at various points.) I just don't see Alyssa at their level right now, even with her talent. But as I said before, someone can always get lucky if the above three slip up. Like Kimmie last year...
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- Mar 19, 2006
..and learned how to bring it out more - for whatever reason.
That is why I say 98%. There are only about 2% of the people in this world that just can't have it no matter how they try, but 98% have it, it is just if and how they learn to bring it out. Some of the 98% will never learn it but have it IMO - Pierre Bourdieu points this out -sorta, more IMO. And Max was really discussing types of authority, charisma being one of three types.
from Wikki - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Bourdieu
So IMO, Kimmie and others will continue to learn it regardless if they had shown it to begin with. It is possible to learn it, because all 98% of us IMO have it but have not all learned how to show it to be perceived as such. But 2% won't and never will.
And to stay on topic, there is a new expectation of showing charisma that is a part of a new perception of society, hence making it more difficult for some - skaters - because following the same "game plan" the past skaters have does not work as well as it once did. This could have some relevance to the thread "bratz or barbi" and the topic MM was bring up as well. What does the population want to see or already see in the "personalities" of FS ladies - and men too IMO.
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I've read the article you gave me. It is interesting. Now, I'll try to find out in which skill I'm weak and practice it to improve it.
Back to our discussion. Yes, Weber talked about autorithy, and charisma being one of the types of authority.
Anyway I remain on my point of view, for now, which is not that different from yours. It is just that I'll give more than 2% of non charismatic people.
Thanks for the discussion. I'm happy that I've learned some many things in an evening.
Back to our discussion. Yes, Weber talked about autorithy, and charisma being one of the types of authority.
Anyway I remain on my point of view, for now, which is not that different from yours. It is just that I'll give more than 2% of non charismatic people.
Thanks for the discussion. I'm happy that I've learned some many things in an evening.
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I really don't think this is the case myself.
For me at least, I started to follow the 'sport' because I watched it and naturally enough liked some performances more than others and jeered and cheered in ignorant bliss
Sure, I wondered why this one won and this one didn't, but I recognised the basics that, even under the 6.0 system, a skater had to do a certain number of difficult jumps, steps, moves, spins etc and had to make it all look artistic and stuff like that. Like similar judging systems such as that in gymnastics and diving I left the results to be determined by people who are assumed to be knowledgeable about such things.Not understanding the details of the scoring had no impact on whether I liked watching the sport or not. In fact, this issue actually increased my interest because I wanted to find out more about it, and indeed the vaguaries of the scoring system makes it all that much more intriguing.
The only relevant point is whether the CoP system rewards athleticism more than artistry and whether this makes the spectacle more or less appealing to the average newbie punter.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Seanibu - Do you have charisma?
With my genes and the environment I grew up in, there was no way I would be a charasmatic guy. Charisma is a natural trait that's been nurtured 'to be a good little boy'. I also believe one can fake it.
Joe
Ausrick
That's rubbish. Do you really think that most people like to be talked down to and have the judges tell them who the winner should be; that they have no opinion of their own? Do you think people are really that disengaged? They most definitely have opinions of their own and if they don't understand how the judges arrived at theirs, you have a major problem with the sport. It has nothing to do with being a newbie in the sport or not. It's confusing even for those of us that have been following it for many years.
That's rubbish. Do you really think that most people like to be talked down to and have the judges tell them who the winner should be; that they have no opinion of their own? Do you think people are really that disengaged? They most definitely have opinions of their own and if they don't understand how the judges arrived at theirs, you have a major problem with the sport. It has nothing to do with being a newbie in the sport or not. It's confusing even for those of us that have been following it for many years.
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- Mar 19, 2006
That is up to the perceiver, so do you think I do?
I actually don't want to know the answer to that. Well Joe I know you were around when Max Weber wrote on this topic
(just kidding! ) but read that article I posted for gio. Max is outdated by socity, society has grown, evolved. People have learned to look within. Your genes dictating your lack of charisma? Or are you the one to "choose" not to - develop, or family that raised you did not bring it out in you? You learn to be - some have no hope I agree - but most do have the choice, the ability, but don't learn how in some way. If you believe that you don't / can't, you won't. And by "proof" you do as I have seen / read. Some posts you are just stating how you feel and making a point, others you have a charm that unintentionally comes through, or maybe you "fake it." But either way charisma is up to the observers of you to decide whether you have it or not. So if you are "faking" and people are fooled you then actually have it regardless of what you think. Besides, the topic was really regarding the skaters, so even if you take the stance you can "fake it" then these skaters can "fake it" and will at that point have it.
Look at Shizuka pre Olys, now after Olys. See what that confidence did? It gave her something? Or did it just bring out that which was there? Hiding or she didn't think she had it. She now does IMO.
Someone who tries to be liked and have their company enjoyed and has success has charisma. Someone who doesn't, could care less, is down on themselves, thinks it is just in their genes, tries the same way over and over even though it doesn't work, fails to learn from others is not going to be considered as having charisma. But Joe you are proof, that even though you don't think you do, you do.
I am not an Ugly Betty watcher, but is that not some of what they are showing us?
I used to work with a developmentally disabled man who was not physically attractive at all. He would say things like "sick of you lier," "want to poke your eyes out," and the best IMO walk up to guys in the market and say "I want Mc Queer." But ANYONE who spent more then 4 hours with him would be charmed and realize, this guy had charisma. Suddenly you enjoyed looking at him and trying to figure out what exactly he was saying. How to help him, just be his friend. This is because once you proved to him that his efforts to be friendly to you would pay off for him he learned what kind of person you wanted to have around and shifted into a wonderfully likable guy. Showed the charisma he learned to have.
So I guess to answer your first question, sometimes I do and others I don't. I think my first post here at GS was not charismatic at all, yet now ....well I haven't been kicked off and have great conversations with members. And for some reason, people who meet me 90% of the time like me. Even if I try to send the message I don't want to be your friend. They still want to. It is more of a curse in some cases. But there is a big difference in meeting me in person and talking on a forum I suppose?
IOW, believe in yourself, personality is not something that is considered to be defined by physics. You may think you can fly and still not be able to, but if you believe you can change your personality you can - 98% of the time IMO. But you do have to learn and try.
Just look at Kimmie - the ones who don't see the change are still hung up on the old, and haven't seen enough of a change yet, but I think most of them will. I know one guy who thinks MK is phony - I can't figure that out??? So just because there is one or two negatives out there doesn't mean they all are, or that they will stay that way. And they might just be totally wrong - i.e. not liking MK, what is wrong with that guy???
"Buck up little camper!" - name that movie Toni.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Nicely put, Seanibu. 'Faking it' is part of the art of acting. One has to learn how to express the emotions of the character he is portraying. This applies to all performing artists. I learned it as a dancer.
Sometimes, I would draw on my own problems to fake an emotion and that was frightening. Charisma, I do not have. I do see it in others and I am jealous of them.
I see it in Alissa. She's had a rough time and maybe continues to have a rough time in figure skating yet there is nothing sour about her. I've seen sourness on other skaters but I will not mention names. It's a worm can opener.
Joe
Sometimes, I would draw on my own problems to fake an emotion and that was frightening. Charisma, I do not have. I do see it in others and I am jealous of them.
I see it in Alissa. She's had a rough time and maybe continues to have a rough time in figure skating yet there is nothing sour about her. I've seen sourness on other skaters but I will not mention names. It's a worm can opener.
Joe
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- Mar 19, 2006
Joe I think you are saying there is only one type of Charisma too. There are others, not "just the natural." And the "natural" is a something you learned without trying anyway. So if they / you try it is still a learned attribute.:agree:
I will agree that jealousy is not a very charismatic attribute, but you could realize, whether or not you are charismatic is; it is a perception from others they must have of you, regardless of what you think or the fact you "don't allow" yourself to have or learn the attributes necessary to obtain said charisma. One is your choice and the rest is up to society. - statement with a 2% margin of error
I will agree that jealousy is not a very charismatic attribute, but you could realize, whether or not you are charismatic is; it is a perception from others they must have of you, regardless of what you think or the fact you "don't allow" yourself to have or learn the attributes necessary to obtain said charisma. One is your choice and the rest is up to society. - statement with a 2% margin of error
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