New U.S. Nationals/decline of figure skating article

[Mafke]

It's also the direct result of what I call "the dilution of skating." By that, I mean putting on these declasse cheesefests and skating shows. They only served to over expose the sport via meaningless venues. It's the thrill of genuine competition, whether inspired by the Cold War or not, that fills the seats and pays the bills.

Thirdly and very importantly, the general public does not understand the scoring system. If they can't "participate" and understand how the skaters are scored, they become less involved and walk away. Everyone understands a touchdown, no one understands this unwieldy mess courtesy of the ISU

My first post was about the olympics in general and why less and less attention is paid to them (making them a poor venue to hang the fortunes of a sport upon).

For the apparent decline of skating in particular, I'd say yes you bring up two points.

1. Debased competitions debase the sport. I barely remember anything like a 'pro' competition I really wanted to see again. Most were barely a half-step above professional wrestling in terms of perceived legitimacy . I think there are possible ways to run pro-competitions that wouldn't be an embarassment that drove away fans but no one's found it yet.

2. The ISU's response to the 2002 judging debacle has been to make judging infinitely worse from the point of view of fans.
For all its imperfections (which were many), even casual viewers generally understood the 6.0 system. They knew there were two marks, one (roughly) for what the skater did in terms of athletic achievement and one (roughly) for how well they did that. Most viewers even realized that the scores were simultaneously absolute (against an abstract standard of 'perfection') and relative (the skaters against each other) and that a 5.7 could be very good or so so depending on how the particular judge who assigned it had been marking (tough or generous).
And ... since the skaters were chosen to compete by country, the judges were clearly marked by country giving rise to lots of pleasant speculation about hidden agendas and "what if?" scenarios.
Finally, the drawn out process of reading out the marks and waiting for the second set of marks created great post competition drama.
Something that the ISU did not understand: Despite its many flaws the old system worked in both letting the casual viewer have some idea of what's going on and in creating drama past the end of the program.
The new current system does none of that. I still can't remember what a good or mediocre technical or overall score in the new system is and without names or faces to pin the numbers to I don't especially care.

I think a far better approach would have been to keep nationalities and keep 6.0 as the ultimate mark but to break down the 6.0 system with some elements of the new system. So that (for example) jumps are worth up to 3.0 of the 6.0 technical mark, and for a (for example) lady to get 3.0 she would need (about) 7 triples (there should be more than one way to max out in any given area). Spins and footwork sequences could be 1.5 each. Similarly the 6.0 for presentation could have been divided into six or four specific areas.
The one good thing about the new judging system is releasing the protocals after the competition so that could be done as well with the judges' names and nationalities prominently featured.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Kyla - While I see your point in describing the decline of figure skating in america, I don't know if that is world wide.

I suspect, but I don't know, that Japan is experiencing quite a bit of excitement in figure skating; Korea is beginning to and we know what S&Z did for China. There has to be strong interest in Men's Division in Europe and, of course, there will be interest for Dance in Russia.

America which specialized in the Ladies Division, unfortunately, does not have the top contenders, imo. The other Divisions were only of interest to fans of figure skating as a whole wich never caught the media's eye, imo.

For the US it is a period of waiting till those two whippersnappers, Zhang and Nagasu hit the big time, imo.

Joe

 

[kyla2]

Yes.....

Yes, I agree with all of the above. It is primarily in America. Part of the problem is that the sport was dominated by a full fledged super star of the first magnitude-Michelle Kwan. Her leaving it (and yes, she has left it) has had a significant impact on the sport. I have ALWAYS loved figure skating and I am 53 years old, but I am really feeling her loss. She had a competitive edge that was palpable. The tension was in the air when she skated. The same with Sasha. I hate to say that I don't care if Kimmie falls, but I don't (I know that's awful but I can't help it). The only skaters I care about are Shen and Zhao.

The numbers game with the judging is a mess. They ought to be shot for creating such a complicated and confusing system.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Mafke - That was another great post on the State of Figure Skating Today. It should be published.

1. As much as I would like to see a real Pro Sport, it will never happen. It's not in the hearts of the retired 'eligibles'. Many fans who enjoy pro skating enjoy the celebritiness of the performances Hard core fans don't get it and stay away from it. However, the retired skaters do make money so they will give the fans what they want. They don't lose anything in pro sports as it is set up today.

2. Sad that the ISU had to take eligible figure skating away from the general public. The 6.0 system was quite simple to understand, and the judges nationalities were part and parcel of the whole setup. There are ways to cheat in the CoP system but one must go to the protocols and see the various discrepancies in the scores. But.... who are the judges that affect those scores
and who have the ability to lower or increase a skater's points?

3. The secrecy is what prevents an outcry of public opinion.

All this is definitely a decline in the interest of figure skating at least in the US., imo.

Joe

 

[gio]

My mother, who was always an occasional fan of figure skating, lost interest in this sport, because she doesn't understand the scoring system. She also said that she misses the panel of judges where the nationalities where written, because she had fun commenting the marks that every judge gave. She said (to her occasional eyes) that the sport is less artistic. It gives an idea of what skating has become to the general public. She also misses Sasha, Michelle, Anissina/Peizerat, Yagudin saying that skaters now are less interesting to watch.
The result is that now she only watches ice shows. She didn't watch the Euros, except for the Free Dance and Gala. From 1990s on she always watched Euros, Worlds and Olympics. Last year her interest started to drop.

It's obvious that we hardcore fans will always watch figure skating, but the occasional fans will not. Or maybe they will watch just ice shows.

 

[ranjake]

i didn't expect the excitement i felt from evan's freeskate; i loved it and it made me excited to see what his future holds. i've been a big johnny fan, but it seems to me he's going through a transition, but i still think he'll get it all back(hope). kimmie and emily? it's like...they're not ready for primetime, just yet..imo. pushed to the forefront before they have close to a total package. i loved alissa...i hope she can keep out the nerves and keep on her feet at world's. i loved the good old days when there was so much skating on tv that i needed two vcrs...

 

[jennylovskt]

I agree with all the reasons listed above. I think there are some other reasons.

Such high demanding, expensive sports don't have basic ground to be popular in the first place. If people don't do this sport themselves, how can you expect them to be interested in it. (Of course, this barrier has always been there.)

It's like the operas gave a way to the pop music. Time is changing. I don't see many teenagers and young people who love the modern music and excitement of the sports like figure skating. It needs some education to understand and appreciate it. (I am not saying that I am educated. I am still learning.)

So I think, sadly, but it's true, that figure skating will experience ups and downs, but in general, it will decline from the popularity aspect. Unless we make it a popular sport to everyone and educate people, especially the young people.

 

[R.D.]

But is the decline of FS a problem worldwide, or only in the US? Let's say interest becomes nonexistent in the US. I see no reason to think FS will completely die out. It will go on, and American fans will just need the internet and Youtube to keep up now (isn't that what we're doing now, anyway?)

 

[decker]

I work in public health research. When I ponder the new scoring system, an old saw about epidemiology and statistics comes to mind. Epidemiology takes simple relationships and makes them complicated. Biostatistics takes complicated relationships and renders them utterly indecipherable.

While I'm no statistician, I couldn't do my job without a grasp of basic statistical concepts and methods. I can understand why the general public just goes cross-eyed. And it isn't really necessary. Researchers talk about elegant study design, by which they mean the simplest design that will do the job. CoP is just butt-ugly.

There are other issues, especially in the U.S. with no really incredible entry in ladies' singles and the historic lack of interest in men's singles. But there's not much ground to be gained by addressing these issues, IMHO.

As long as Joe and Jane Public can't even figure out why the winner won, attention from a wider audience will be hard to get. The size of the die-hard audience will probably get smaller, as well. We all start out as casual fans. If it's too hard to figure out what's going on, fewer people will stick with it.

Susan

 

[SeaniBu]

As long as Joe and Jane Public can't even figure out why the winner won, attention from a wider audience will be hard to get. The size of the die-hard audience will probably get smaller, as well. We all start out as casual fans. If it's too hard to figure out what's going on, fewer people will stick with it.

:agree:

I don't however agree with the impact of people not skating themselves having MUCH to do with not liking it. This is not based on what I thought, but what I have found out via asking non-viewers / non-followers. Every person I have asked theses types of question say no to that, the fact they don't FS themselves does not have effect on whether they like it. That or most sports for that matter - golf seems to be completely different though. Even though they say this has no effect on them, they even speculate that it does to others.:scratch: It seems like it should matter in my mind too, but it is not turning up that way.

I started FSing again because I was watching, not watching because I was going. I guess is a way to try and say this differently.

I really feel, and get the feedback to support, the Idea quoted above is one of the most important. People will often say this about Diving and Gymnastics as well.

Of course sometimes I get feedback that is just silly in my mind too, and have posted some of those ideas as well. For example renaming the Kiss & Cry, I don't see as making any difference myself. But when I inform someone of the name (which is usually not known) they either give that "you have got to be kidding me" look, or say "and you wonder why people think figure skating is for little girls?"

They are all just ideas that come from exterior sources, I love it as is for myself, but think the understanding of the point system and how many points given when, etc... is one of the biggest deterrents. Most just look and think it is nice to watch (a lot really) but the understanding leaves them blank.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

The Sport will continue and if necessary on a smaller scale, but I think that Only In America.

Aside from the complicated system of scoring for the general public, the casual fans in Spokane did give out Ovations and there were some Booings too. The whys and hows of who should have won or not won, when a sport is so visible, is problematic for the casual fan.

However, we still have to face up to the fact that many hard core fans of Ladies figure skating were bored seemingly for the lack of two stars to battle it out.

Joe

 

[gio]

But is the decline of FS a problem worldwide, or only in the US?

Here in Italy after the Olympics the interest in FS is growing. A lot of ice shows were organized (in Turin, Milan, Ascoli, Trieste...). Soon it will start the second season of the Italian version of Dancing on Ice, were vips try to learn skating. But a lot of people complain about COP, because they don't understand the judging.

In the Far East FS is becoming very popular. Shizuka won the Olympics and there are great skaters such as Mao, Miki, Takahashi, Oda, Yu Na Kim, Shen Zhao, Zhang Zhang...

 

[gio]

However, we still have to face up to the fact that many hard core fans of Ladies figure skating were bored seemingly for the lack of two stars to battle it out.
Joe

IMO it is because Michelle and Sasha were very charismatic and the new ones are less.
Charisma isn't something you learn, it is a gift. You can't learn charisma. So the USA has to find a new charismatic lady.

 

[R.D.]

I think that lady has already been found in Alyssa. But Americans tend to like WINNERS (or at least contenders), and the one contender (Kimmie) isn't the most charismatic. I hardly think this is to blame for the declining interest, though. People forget that interest was on the downhill slide for a few years, even when Kwan was around and Cohen was in her prime. So it's just the state of things rather than the skaters themselves.

I don't think the 6.0 system was understood by too many, either, but wouldn't be at all surprised if the Cop scared people away. People don't really know what the numbers mean, but the skaters (and diehard fans) seem to embrace it.

 

[SeaniBu]

Charisma isn't something you learn, it is a gift. You can't learn charisma. So the USA has to find a new charismatic lady.

I disagree 98%.

 

[gio]

I don't know Alyssa very much, in fact I saw her skating just at Junior Worlds in 2006. I have to watch some good Alyssa's programs. Which program do you suggest me? Skate America or Canada in 2005? Maybe?

 

[gio]

I disagree 98%.

Did you read Max Weber?
You can improve charisma. But not learn, because it is a gift, a virtue.
Anyway, everyone has their opinion.

 

[blue dog]

For me, what killed figure skating is the lack of heart. I can see the skaters thinking through their program, and not really enjoying it.

Of course, I just miss the fact that I can chant out 6! 6! when I like a performance. Now, I don't know what to say...

 

[R.D.]

I don't know Alyssa very much, in fact I saw her skating just at Junior Worlds in 2006. I have to watch some good Alyssa's programs. Which program do you suggest me? Skate America or Canada in 2005? Maybe?

That, and if you can get a hold of her 2007 nationals freeskate on Youtube or something. That's personally the best I've seen from her- her only mistake was landing a jump on two feet.

 

[Spun Silver]

For me, what killed figure skating is the lack of heart. I can see the skaters thinking through their program, and not really enjoying it.

Of course, I just miss the fact that I can chant out 6! 6! when I like a performance. Now, I don't know what to say...

What, you don't find it exciting to yell "57" or "189"?