No Holding Back For Cohen

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Um Soogar, Sasha fell on her Triple Toe during her Triple Lutz/triple Toe Loop combination at the Olympics...so I doubt that would count, and two foots do not count in any system...otherwise, MK would have been credited with 6 triples in SLC, not five.

 

[BronzeisGolden]

I can only recall that Sasha landed a 3lz/3t at the 2003 Worlds and a 3t/.5l/3s at one of those cheesefests last year. I'm glad she isn't focusing on the 3/3. She really needs to be more worried about landing everything cleanly and skating with a more relaxed quality (like her SP from 04 Nationals). It also doesn't look like Michelle or Irina will have 3/3s either, so, I can't see that Sasha not having one will hurt her at all. Arakawa and Sokolova might pull them off, but if Sasha delivers a clean, 6-7 triple "Swan Lake" then she will be placed above them. It sounds like Sasha is thinking as she needs to heading into these Worlds.

 

[soogar]

I classify an Olympic program where she fell on her butt when all she needed was a clean conservative skate as falling apart. Plus 5 triples in the ladies does not cut it anymore. Even in 1998- I think Michelle had 6 or 7 triples there.

I remember Sasha's skate at the Olympics, she didn't land her 3-3 cleanly at all but on the 3 toe, whatever 2 foot/stumble was not nearly as bad as the way Michelle wiped out on her jump in her program. Plus considering how many CLEAN performances I've see Michelle skate (even in 1998), her falling was a really big deal.

Midori's problems probably didn't come so much from 3-3 combos as it did from doing the triple axel and attempting quad jumps in practice. I read that in '86 or '87 she broke her ankle doing a quad jump in practice (before the '88 Olympics). Plus Midori had way more height and power in her jumps than any other ladies skater which would also contribute to her injuries.

In World events I have seen Michelle in , she never had a 3-3 and I don't have cable so I don't watch the QR. Is the QR even worth a significant portion of the score? I thought it was akin to an exercise to get into the main event. If she falls on a 3-3 in qr, she'll still be in it to win the championship. Also Michelle does 3-3 all the time in practice but doesn't do them in her long programs. If she does them consistently, she would have attempted one in EVERy worlds and nationals long program. She is similar to Todd in that he too was able to do quads in practice but he never made it a point to do them in competition on a consistent basis. And Michelle has lots of opportunities to try this combination without being penalized if she made a mistake.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I classify an Olympic program where she fell on her butt when all she needed was a clean conservative skate as falling apart. Plus 5 triples in the ladies does not cut it anymore. Even in 1998- I think Michelle had 6 or 7 triples there.

Falling apart would be if MK kept on falling or making mistakes after her fall on the Flip...she didn't, she fought back. What MK did was make a mistake (two if you count a two-footed Toe...which by your definition Soogar doesn't count in the old system) and still landed 3 triples afterwards. 1997 Nationals LP...now that was falling apart for MK.
In your definition, does that mean that Sasha fell apart also when she fell on her butt at SLC?
My answer is a big "no".

Oh, and Julia Sebestyen just won Europeans with 5 triples...keep that in mind.

 

[soogar]

I liked Sasha's free skate in the Olympics, however she had so many errors that she couldn't place above Sarah even though a mistake filled Sasha program was more impressive than a clean Sarah program. I thought that Sasha cracked too b/c she would have won the OGM with a clean skate... the judges definitely gave her good marks for what she did.

However Michelle had the pressure on her and she could not deliver the goods when it mattered. It wasn't even close.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

If she does them consistently, she would have attempted one in EVERy worlds and nationals long program. She is similar to Todd in that he too was able to do quads in practice but he never made it a point to do them in competition on a consistent basis. And Michelle has lots of opportunities to try this combination without being penalized if she made a mistake.

The difference between Todd's situation and Michelle's is that Todd had competitors who could do the quad consistently, whereas MK doesn't really have any competitors who can do the 3/3 consistently.

Also, since it seems you haven't watched any of the ladies competition at Worlds from 1999-2002 Michelle has landed more triple/triples than any other of her competitors...including Irina Slutskaya, whereas Todd doesn't have that sort of record with the Quad.

To answer you question...the QR is worth 20% of the score, so yeah...it is a big deal.

However Michelle had the pressure on her and she could not deliver the goods when it mattered. It wasn't even close.

How is this situation different from what Sasha did at the Olympics? Why the double standard?

 

[soogar]

Europeans are Europeans. Plus she was outskated by Sokolova who fell in the SP. Sometimes luck has a lot to do with it. However in the past 2 Olympics, both girls had 7 triples and the trend probably won't change.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

Europeans are Europeans. Plus she was outskated by Sokolova who fell in the SP. Sometimes luck has a lot to do with it. However in the past 2 Olympics, both girls had 7 triples and the trend probably won't change.

5 triples might not be enough to win, but like you said...anything can happen. The argument is that you said MK had a meltdown with 5 triples...I disagree with that.

It was a disappointment, not a meltdown. Many skaters would love to have that performance be called a melt-down for them.

 

[soogar]

Michelle is NOT most skaters. She was the preeminent skater going into the Olympics who was known for being consistent. Other than her growing pains when she lost to Tara, Michelle had always skated skated clean programs in Worlds and even in Nagano. Based on her track record, it was a huge deal that she fell in the long program. I'm not knocking her, but based on her previous performances I expected a lot more out of her than what she produced and while I'm not a fan of her, she would have made a better Olympic Champion than Sarah Hughes and she blew it.

 

[soogar]

QR is also spilt into 2 divisions so the placements won't be as severe as when the group as a whole is compared together. Plus don't they split the top ladies so that way Michelle is in one group and Irina is in the other? So she wouldn't have as many strong skaters to vault ahead of her.

According to my previous posts, I did think that Sasha cracked in the Olympics.

 

[VIETgrlTerifa]

I think we should just agree to disagree on this point. You think MK totally fell apart at the Olympics. I think MK had a disappointing LP with a mistake that cost her the gold. Ok.

Now back to the triple-triple talks.

I think it's smart for Cohen to not go for the 3/3. As the GP events suggests, a clean Cohen has a good shot of making the podium. Plus, Cohen hasn't landed a 3/3 all season in competition, and her track record with it isn't that good.

I think it's good that Robin and Sasha work on a clean performance for Worlds and work on the 3/3 in the off season and get it ready for the fall. The fact that Sasha and Robin recognize they need it for next season is a great sign IMO.

EDITED TO ADD THIS:

QR is also spilt into 2 divisions so the placements won't be as severe as when the group as a whole is compared together. Plus don't they split the top ladies so that way Michelle is in one group and Irina is in the other? So she wouldn't have as many strong skaters to vault ahead of her.

The QR groups are based on the results from previous worlds. It goes like this:
1, 3, 5 place skaters will be in one group, and 2,4,6 place skaters will be in another. Having it split up doesn't make it any easier...ask Sasha last year when she was in the same group as Michelle and Elena Sokolova.
Plus, knowing it's worth 20 percent of your score makes it difficult. A bad placement here could take away your medal chances.

 

[soogar]

I think Sasha should keep the 3-3 b/c she needs to think long run instead of short run. The more practice she gets with it now , the better off she will be for the Olympics which is her ultimate goal. I even think that with Sasha's skating, a fall on the 3-3 would not hurt her esp since Michelle has said that she will not attempt one at Worlds this year. What hurts Sasha the most is all the other little mistakes she makes along the way. It's almost ridiculous how she gives away points with all these little errors.

 

[RIskatingfan]

Europeans are Europeans. Plus she was outskated by Sokolova who fell in the SP. Sometimes luck has a lot to do with it. However in the past 2 Olympics, both girls had 7 triples and the trend probably won't change.

Soogar, I'm not sure where you're getting all your information, but this you posted is also incorrect. Sokolova did not fell in the SP in Budapest. She only two-footed one jump. Everybody else skated much better so she was placed 6th. And she also didn't outskate Sebestyen because Sebestyen won the LP. It has nothing to do with luck.

And what exactly do you mean with "Europeans are Europeans"? LOL I assume you mean one the most important international competitions with plenty of good skaters that need to skate very well in order to win because there is a strong competition?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Soogar - There is no reading between the lines. You are an ardent fan of Sasha. I don't blame you. Sasha is a great figure skater and a real contender for this year's Worlds.

However, I do not understand your obsession with the 3x3s. If we consider the combo mandatory and MK and Sasha do not do this mandatory combo, then the only people to watch are:

Slustkaya - if she's still got it.
Liashenko - very consistent
Sokolova - seems to have her jumps back
Suguri - always ready at big events
Arakawa - the combo and so lyrical
Ando - from what we hear a quad in competition.
Kostner - she can do triple combos.
Pavuk - the new wunderkind.
Kirk - she's been hitting the triple combo.

If all of the above hit the triple triple, then MK and Sasha will finish 10th and 11th.

I love MK and Sasha and I think they can outskate all of those listed except for Arakawa. But I would not bet on this contest.

Joe

 

[Mathman]

GO SASHA! I am confident that this is her year and she will skate superbly. I just want to see her let go and enjoy herself--and let the judges decide the rest

Thank you, Ouridol. A little light amid the heat.

MM

 

[Verbalgirl77]

I even think that with Sasha's skating, a fall on the 3-3 would not hurt her esp since Michelle has said that she will not attempt one at Worlds this year.

Ah, so Sasha can fall now? I guess technically she wouldn't be falling apart then or 'blowing it', since it's only the World championships. There is no way Sasha with a fall will beat the other top ladies that skate clean, especially not under the 6.0 system. That goes for any of the top 6 ladies, not just Sasha.

In World events I have seen Michelle in , she never had a 3-3 and I don't have cable so I don't watch the QR.

I guess cable must've carried her winning LP's as well, because she won each in 2000 & 2001 with a 3-3.

 

[wvgal57]

Judges are going to look at the difficulty of the 3/3 also. They range from the easiest to the hardest. Just having a 3/3 might not be enough, or it may be.

I'll be honest though, I just don't get these skaters who've been skating like forever. These women should already have 3/3's - at least a pretty consistent simple 3/3. It just seems to me a lack of motivation and "want to". I'd want to push the sport than just idle along and have to pushed.

I show horses competitively and I want my horse better and better for each competition, not going backwards, I want a better quality horse if I get a new one.

Some site injury factor but look at all the women who are all of a sudden getting on the bandwagon just since SLC with a good 3/3. Sarah Hughes put em hustling!

 

[bronxgirl]

Would you ask a young horse to train to the point of lameness?
We've seen what has happened to skaters who have permanently damaged their body through the constant repetitive jolting it takes to do the 3/3 well and consistently (eg Tara). I feel sorry for anyone whose long term health is damaged by the stress of this training. If fewer 3/3s mean healthier and longer careers for skaters (until the technology of boots et al can catch up), so be it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

wvgal - I believe you have to count on natural ability to explain why some skaters have no trouble with 3x3s and others have. Some people are born with the talent to make beautiful air turns. I've seen it in ballet class. Some students make the double tour without problem; others cheat. In ballet a dancer have to complete tours en l'aire from a standstill. That is much more difficult than with speed. Check out Surya Bonaly's double axel from one step out of a standstill. Not easy, and who else can do it?

There is also the age factor. Working on triples require a skater execute the jump from a good deal of speed because it is easier. However, the speed in itself can be frightening. If one misses, the fall is much harder. Younger skaters are braver than older skaters. Kwan, for example, had terrific jumps as a youngster. But Tara's 3loop combo changed ladies skating so as to make triple combos part of the game. Jr. Ladies are doing 3x3s all over the world.

Motivation - as you said. If one is around as long as Irina and Michelle, it's tough to get worked up in completing still another air turn or getting back in shape with air turns. not easy, little motivation. At 19, Sasha may be in the first stages of what MK and IS have already faced.

I go easy on these ole babes. They paid their dues. Good times and bum times, they've seen them all, and my dear, they're still here.

Joe

 

[nymkfan51]

I go easy on these ole babes. They paid their dues. Good times and bum times, they've seen them all, and my dear, they're still here.
Joe [/B]

Amen to that Joe!!!