None of the Men Skated Medal Worthy Free Skates

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I think Jeremy Abbott skated a medal worthy performance. Clean and beautiful.

Funny enough, he had the only clean skate (no quad though). Unfortunately he had no quad (and his SP disaster kept him far from the podium).

And that's how it should be. Somebody who doesn't even attempt a quad shouldn't be in the top 5 of freeskates.

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

Those skaters didn't have to execute nearly the amount of difficulty of programs that the field of men attempted in Sochi. Spins were easier and in a couple basic positions (for the most part) with less rotations, footwork sequences were a walk in the park with few complex turns, and programs were devoid of the transitions you see now, guys had frontloaded, telegraphed jumps with basic entries.

True, but fatigue wasn't a factor because both Patrick and Yuzuru made their mistakes early (aside from Patrick's 2A). So the mistakes aren't from being tired after difficult footwork and transitions, but rather lack of concentration.

 

[Li'Kitsu]

True, but fatigue wasn't a factor because both Patrick and Yuzuru made their mistakes early (aside from Patrick's 2A). So the mistakes aren't from being tired after difficult footwork and transitions, but rather lack of concentration.

I'm pretty sure fatigue was an issue, as they already seemed a little tired before th LP began, and the schedule might have been partly to blame for that. (I get you meant fatigue from the LP itself, but generally speaking I think it was a factor)
Additionally, I'd imagine that just having to practice level 4 everything and more demanding programs already takes a lot of time and energy that pre-CoP skaters could put into practicing the big tricks. That would make it easier to become consistent with the jumps too.

but if you are very lucky , you may find in a gala a skater who jumps 4T-3A-3A-3A-3A

Given that his doctor recommended him to rest instead of attending practice due to some fatigue signs, I doubt he'll go for that but he messed up one of his quads, good chance he'll go for 4T at least!

 

[mmcdermott]

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to see cleaner skates than what we're seeing. It's not fun to watch and it's not good for the sport when the winner of the olympic gold medal had two falls. These guys have jacked up the difficulty to the point where they can only complete these programs cleanly once in a blue moon. It's too much, they need to tone it down. I don't think it's necessarily because they are not as good as the skaters that came before them. I think it's because the difficulty has gone over the top.

Lysacek and Pushenko in 2010 has base values in the free program in the 74-75 point range. Hanyu's was 83 (and I think his planned BV is around 88). That's a huge increase in difficulty. In 2006 Plushenko did two (easier) jumping passes in the second half. Hanyu and Chan both had 5 (harder) jumping passes in the second half. (In contrast, the base values of the top ladies hasn't increased at all - around 60 points in the free program).

These two have pushed up their base values so high that they can afford several big mistakes and still win. Others are fighting to catch up, and they only way they have a hope is by similarly amping up the difficulty.

I found some of Jeremy Abbot's comments to be quite interesting in this respect. It sounds like we can't imagine how difficult it is for these guys to go out and do what they're doing. They might be able to complete these programs in low pressure situations, but when the big events come around the pressure and self doubt is too much.

I think something needs to be done to get the men to start skating cleanly, and it could be a combination of increasing penalties for mistakes and maybe something like reducing the amount of second half bonus, or the number of jumping passes that can get 2nd half bonus etc.

 

[hippomoomin]

Why not stop crying about the men's competition and enjoy the rest of game? It's not perfect but they are the highest level.

It's like saying none of the US president candidates was president worthy and let's manage the country by ourselves.

 

[moviechick]

They may be amping up the difficulty but if no one can stay on their feet, it's an incredibly unpleasant viewing experience and is not doing the sport any favors with audiences who don't see the more subtle things.

 

[rain]

It was one of those unfortunate competitions where I kind of wished they didn't have to hand out a gold medal to anyone. It was not a fun comp to watch at all.

 

[Olympia]

They may be amping up the difficulty but if no one can stay on their feet, it's an incredibly unpleasant viewing experience and is not doing the sport any favors with audiences who don't see the more subtle things.

This is what's worrying me as well. And it's no fun for experienced skating fans either. Why would I watch a demolition derby? It's like watching a footrace where everyone collides with everyone else and no one reaches the finish line.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Funny enough, he had the only clean skate (no quad though). Unfortunately he had no quad (and his SP disaster kept him far from the podium).

And that's how it should be. Somebody who doesn't even attempt a quad shouldn't be in the top 5 of freeskates.

It's rubbish to say that someone who doesn't attempt a quad shouldn't be in the top 5.

A program without a Quad could have easily deserved to win this Olympics.

With regards to Jeremy's program, he didn't just lack a Quad. He also did only 3Toe and 2Axel instead of 3Lutz and 3Loop, and his 3-jump combo was the easiest. There was a lot of content missing that a non-Quad program can maximize (like Jason Brown's). Jeremy's LP is also simply not that good. It was a far better program in 2012.

 

[Mathman]

Sadly, I have to agree with Olympia. People like us who follow the sport with interest and enthusiasm appriciate that a skater did a difficult transition into his triple Lutz and got in more than two-and-a-half revolutions before he fell. But this is the Olympics. To a billion people, this is what the sport of men's figure skating is. Fall down twice, next you're on the podium receiving your medal.

Anyway, the dance competition was great.

 

[jace93]

But this is the Olympics. To a billion people, this is what the sport of men's figure skating is. Fall down twice, next you're on the podium receiving your medal.

I think that it also depends on when you started watching figure skating... If someone has started in the years past than probably he would feel that a fall ruin a program, but I watched this competition with some of my college friends (none of them followed any skating competition since tourin 2006, since it was like half an hour away from where I live, and at the time we were just kids, so no one understood much or remembers something for what matters) and they where all very moved by the skaters putting up a fight, going all out in a lackluster performance, and no one thought that the medalist deserved it any less because of the errors...

 

[drivingmissdaisy]

I think we need to ask what changed this time that resulted in all 24 men being unable to perform their best in the LP. Every one of those athletes aimed to peak here and not one did. It's terrible for the skaters as well as the fans. If it was the schedule (either the back-to-back days of skating or the timing of the team event) or peculiarities of the scoring system that encourage athletes to take too much risk, these need to be addressed for 2018.

 

[SGrand]

I know Yuzu is exhausted but I would love for him to bust that out in the Gala!

I think he is so crazy for doing that all the time (I am a worrier LOL), but I would LOVE to see it too!

 

[Mathman]

... they where all very moved by the skaters putting up a fight, going all out in a lackluster performance, and no one thought that the medalist deserved it any less because of the errors...

That is an excellent point, and I am very glad tp hear it.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

It's rubbish to say that someone who doesn't attempt a quad shouldn't be in the top 5.

A program without a Quad could have easily deserved to win this Olympics.

With regards to Jeremy's program, he didn't just lack a Quad. He also did only 3Toe and 2Axel instead of 3Lutz and 3Loop, and his 3-jump combo was the easiest. There was a lot of content missing that a non-Quad program can maximize (like Jason Brown's). Jeremy's LP is also simply not that good. It was a far better program in 2012.

Let me guess... A certain ponytailed skater whom you show absolute impartiality towards? :sarcasm:

 

[Blades of Passion]

Let me guess... A certain ponytailed skater whom you show absolute impartiality towards? :sarcasm:

Don't roll your eyes. If Jason Brown had skated that program perfectly and everyone was scored correctly for what they actually did out there, he WOULD have deserved to win.

Daisuke Takahashi and Patrick Chan skating perfectly without a Quad also would have deserved to win this Olympics.

I'll also take quadless versions of Hanyu's 2012 programs over what he did at this Olympics.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

Don't roll your eyes. If Jason Brown had skated that program perfectly and everyone was scored correctly for what they actually did out there, he WOULD have deserved to win.

Daisuke Takahashi and Patrick Chan skating perfectly without a Quad also would have deserved to win this Olympics.

I'll also take quadless versions of Hanyu's 2012 programs over what he did at this Olympics.

You're entitled to your opinion/favouritism, but it's absolutely critical that the top placements were from those who attempted quads. After Lysacek, and skaters wondering if they should continue to do quads, they do not need another excuse to regress in difficulty. If you want to see some Olympic gold medal worthy performances without a Quad (other than Lysacek), I can refer you to the early 90s and prior.

Brown is good, but he's not nearly the calibre of Chan/Takahashi/Hanyu at this point. His performance abilities are stellar though, but with shaky axels and other errors, he was lucky to even be top 10. There's a quality about Jason that often makes me forgive his lack of a quad, but even his performance outside the jumps lacked the usual spark.

For the record, he would have needed 195 points to beat Hanyu (his PB is 158). Even if you took off 10 PCS points off Hanyu and dropped him to 81 points PCS, Brown still would have needed 185 points, which is essentially impossible without a quad (unless he was scored better than at US Nationals, lol). I know you love Brown (I do too), but there's absolutely no way he would or should have won without a quad.

 

[Blades of Passion]

It's absolutely critical that the top placements were from those who attempted quads.

It's not critical at all when you don't deliver the whole program. We DON'T want this sport to be "attempt as much difficult as possible and who cares if you fall".

After Lysacek, and skaters wondering if they should continue to do quads, they do not need another excuse to regress in difficulty.

Lysacek winning was problematic not because he lacked the Quad, it was problematic because he lacked artistry and truly great skating in addition to lacking the Quad. If Boitano's performance from 1988 had won 2010 Olympics, there would have been no controversy at all (aside from maybe one or two ultra-patriotic Russians).

Brown is good, but he's not nearly the calibre of Chan/Takahashi/Hanyu at this point.

He's better than them in Spins and Transitions. At his best, he's equal or better in Choreography+Interpretation, and equal or only slightly behind in Performance. Where he does lack pretty significantly is in Skating Skills, where he needs to work on building his speed and blade power. If he skated absolutely perfect, he would have deserved to beat these guys with the mistakes they made.

For the record, he would have needed 195 points to beat Hanyu (his PB is 158). Even if you took off 10 PCS points off Hanyu and dropped him to 81 points PCS, Brown still would have needed 185 points, which is essentially impossible without a quad (unless he was scored better than at US Nationals, lol).

There are far more numbers to be modified than just the one you've selected. You have to consider the overscoring of GOE's that Hanyu and Chan receive for being "the leaders", both in the SP and the LP, plus the underscoring of Brown's PCS in the SP.

185 points in the LP is not at all impossible without a Quad, nor is it impossible for Brown to be scored better than at Nationals, since his second 3Axel was scored as < with -GOE at that competition. If Brown skated perfectly he would have deserved to pull 185 points in the LP, yes (well, more like 180 would be objectively correct, but that's plenty to win if the other guys were also being scored correctly).

 

[moviechick]

I wonder if Plushenko hadn't come out of retirement in 2010 and Evan still won the OGM, would it have been less controversial and led to these changes. The field was just incredibly weak that year that it came down to a mediocre skater having a clean program vs. a legend who was already way past his prime.

 

[pitterpatter]

I think we need to ask what changed this time that resulted in all 24 men being unable to perform their best in the LP. Every one of those athletes aimed to peak here and not one did. It's terrible for the skaters as well as the fans. If it was the schedule (either the back-to-back days of skating or the timing of the team event) or peculiarities of the scoring system that encourage athletes to take too much risk, these need to be addressed for 2018.

I think there's some merit in reviewing the schedule. A number of skaters have mentioned it as an issue and Hanyu also mentioned not being in his best form due to the schedule in his post-win interview. I know they skate back to back in some GPs/other competitions, but IIRC in a lot of those cases, the SP will be earlier in the afternoon/early evening, giving the skaters more time to rest before the free the next day. The sheer length of the Olys and all the media duties might also have factored into the level of fatigue experienced here.