NYT article "Skate Scoring Has Little for Artistry"

[bethissoawesome]

I see Rachael as more of a Tanya Harding type skater... she powers through her program, her jumps, etc., but as far as having any sort of capitivating power over the viewers, she is severely lacking. If she lost her jumps, she would wind up in the no man's land of skaters with weak all-around ability and little to enthrall the audience with. (All I can see Rachael ever doing to gain audience interraction is skating "fun", never elegant or dynamic like Michelle Kwan or Yu-Na Kim).

Mirai takes a lot of the best aspects of every many skaters... the flexibility of Sasha Cohen, the presentation of Yu-Na Kim. She is an all-around skater that really captures the heart and eyes of the audience. Just like Sasha will always be remembered for her presentation, spirals, etc., Mirai could be as well.

The Olympics will always tell a bit more.

When push comes to shove, after the competitive days are over, more people will probably line up to see Mirai on SOI over someone like Rachael. Mirai doesn't need jumps, she simply has a presence on the ice that some skaters have and some just don't no matter how hard they try... but honestly, take away Rachael's jumps and would you really go to pay to see her skate? She can't play cute forever.

 

[schiele]

I don't wanna get into all the discussion but I just felt I had to say my opinion. I watched both girls back to back. I've never been a fan of either and strongly disliked Rachael last year. But being from a non-skating country with no country skater to root for, I am pretty sure I can keep an open mind, more so than most. I have seen both programmes of both skaters as great delight and enjoyed them thoroughly. However, what suprised me was to see the development in Rachael's upper body movement, arms and the feel for the music. Jsut last year, she was skating like a robot to the music totally unrelated but this year especially in the long programme I saw immense improvement. the footwork at the end, the little stops to the music, feeling the ups and downs, it was all wonderful improvements. I thought her LP had very COP friendly bad choreography but obviously they worked on it and it shows, even from SA. I know she doesn't have the best extensions or flexibility or spin positions but I seriously do not see a robotic skate, I see an inspiring one. Overall Mirai might have been better artistically but Flatt for me was not as flat as everyone makes her out to be. There is no question in my mind about the winner. That's all.
PS: NBC's initial broadcast during the live event was horrible in terms of explaining the technical side.. Suprise, suprise..

 

[gfskater]

Thank you for posting that. Is she going up or coming down? How far around is she? What is her direction of motion coming into the jump, compared to how far she has turned in the picture? How much time has transpired so far, how far off the ice is she in the picture, how many degrees has she turned in the air so far and how many degrees did she rotate of the ice before take-off?

I guess it would be hard to see in a still. That was her take off. She is clearly forward and her shoulders are even beyond that.

The reason I posted that is because there was a previous discussion on this forum that referenced the impact of cheated take off on UR calls. As I said in the post she was clearly forward on take off and slightly more than 1/4 on landing. They might have been more forgiving if not for the forward takeoff.

When I get some time I will try post a slow mo video on you tube but you tubers may think I am a Mirai basher. I actually love her skating. I am pointing out that the judges and panel do not have an agenda. Making the technical calls is strictly an objective process. The judges who make their quality calls after the technical decision process is complete gave Mirai a positive GOE when they could.

The judges are being blamed for being inconsistent because what was a beautiful, athletic, well choreographed, energetic, well connected program did not win.

To be fair, the judges gave Marai a slightly higher PCS score than Rachael and positive GOE on most of her elements. The fact that Marai's base values were lower and Rachael made no mistakes is what most of the audience does not understand.

 

[Kinga]

Laura is another one who has great qualities to her skating and a few urs will never change that no matter how much the CoP wants to hold her down.

The problem with Laura is not so much about URs. Mostly she pops the jumps or fall on them. But even when her programs contain very few triple jumps, she is rather held up, not held down. Don't get me wrong, I love her skating, but to me sometimes she is not 'punished' enough for her mistakes and poor technical content. Her artistry takes her too far ahead, and to me that is a bit too unbalanced. Especially that with so many popped jumps like in the LP at Euros, the whole quality of her programs just does not have that much impact. I can understand if a wonderful skater messes up one jumping pass, but all the others aspects of his skating make up for it. But you cannot make up for messing up 5 jumping passes, IMO.

whole post.

Whole post.

I so agree with you both.
Many people label Racheal as ungraceful and robotic, because of her posture. Whereas bad posture does not equall being ungraceful or robotic. Racheal is very musical and has a feeling for the music. And I think she interprets her LP very well (especially later this season). I feel her emotions when she is skating, and thus she connects with me (a representative of the audience). You might not be fan of her skating, but calling her unartistic and robotic, is just not true.

 

[Bennett]

I have always been a big fan of Mirai and have no question about her presentation. But I wish they had chosen more interesting music than Carmen. It was a great performance mainly because of the beauty of her skating and her personality, but the program per se is just okay. Who choregraphed that piece? There would have been something a lot more unique and better fit with her. I also would love to see her in a costume of a brighter color than black for her SP.

 

[janetfan]

I have always been a big fan of Mirai and have no question about her presentation. But I wish they had chosen more interesting music than Carmen. It was a great performance mainly because of the beauty of her skating and her personality, but the program per se is just okay. Who choregraphed that piece? There would have been something a lot more unique and better fit with her. I also would love to see her in a costume of a brighter color than black for her SP.

Lori did the choreo, and actually made a few changes for Natls.
Personally, I love the program and think Mirai skates to that music beautifully.

As to the character portrayal :think: it never really enters my mind.
I like the way she skates to the music and that is always enough for me.

Truthfully, for my taste if I want to see "Carmen" I go to the opera.
When I want to watch skating I look for other things.

I think way too much goes into this character portrayal business. Either a skater can interpret the music to a degree or they can't. It is a problem I have with ice dancing at times.

I am not impressed by these sugar coated romantic programs. I want to see dancing on ice. The theatrical part of it can be OK with me or it can bother me when it is over the top.

I feel the same way about singles programs. Watching Lambiel skate it is never about a character for me - but about the way he expresses himself to the music.

I find his interpretation of the MUSIC and the way he skates to it to be so enjoyable.

 

[Bennett]

I read the article in the original post. I thought that the author of the article was a little mean. Boxing? No.

I think Rachael interprets the music very well and she does convey a lot of emotions.

Perhaps she should work on the spins in the middle that have sloppy positions. But I find her spirals okay. I agree about the lack of stretch. But she might be disadvantaged compared to some others like Mirai who has longer legs and arms, and a skinnier body, in addition to the fact that Mirai has been trained in ballet for a very long time.

But I think that Rachael does have her own artistry. I liked her "La Mer" a lot. I thought that there were many Rachael fans who liked the way she truly enjoys being on the ice and interpreting the music.

 

[Layfan]

Lori did the choreo, and actually made a few changes for Natls.
Personally, I love the program and think Mirai skates to that music beautifully.

As to the character portrayal :think: it never really enters my mind.
I like the way she skates to the music and that is always enough for me.

Truthfully, for my taste if I want to see "Carmen" I go to the opera.
When I want to watch skating I look for other things.

I think way too much goes into this character portrayal business. Either a skater can interpret the music to a degree or they can't. It is a problem I have with ice dancing at times.

I am not impressed by these sugar coated romantic programs. I want to see dancing on ice. The theatrical part of it can be OK with me or it can bother me when it is over the top.

I feel the same way about singles programs. Watching Lambiel skate it is never about a character for me - but about the way he expresses himself to the music.

I find his interpretation of the MUSIC and the way he skates to it to be so enjoyable.

Lori Nichol said in one article (can't find the link unfortunately) that she was skeptical about Carmen for Mirai but Mirai was insistent and finally convinced Nichols. I must say I was disappointed that Mirai chose Carmen too. But I was pleasantly surprised at nationals that she lived up to the music in a way she hadn't all season.

 

[janetfan]

Lori Nichol said in one article (can't find the link unfortunately) that she was skeptical about Carmen for Mirai but Mirai was insistent and finally convinced Nichols. I must say I was disappointed that Mirai chose Carmen too. But I was pleasantly surprised at nationals that she lived up to the music in a way she hadn't all season.

I am not so sure and maybe someone else can add to this - but I thought it was Frank who told Lori he wanted something more grownup for Mirai this season.

Initially I did read Mirai did not want to skate to Carmen but was convinced by her team to go for it.

Here is a clip with Mirai discussing it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jakLO78EfBE

 

[Bennett]

BTW, are they sure that Rachael's 3-3 was not URed? I feel that I saw it, no?

 

[figurejennah]

I think the CoP should work on a fairer guidelines for their PCS scores, because the score is almost like a reputation score now. If Mirai had the same reputation as a skater like Yuna or Mao, then she definitely would have gotten higher PCS. But I think it's because the reputation between Mirai and Flatt are about the same, so one does not get an edge over the other.

Ugh, I noticed that Yuna's name has come up several times in this thread, and I just wanted to point out that Yuna set her first world record without any "reputation" in her first senior debut at 2007 world championship. I completely agree with you that there should be some guide line between TES and PCS, but I don't see how Yuna is always the prime example of a skater who receives high PCS because of her reputation. She's actually one of the skaters who receives PCS lower than her TES.


Mirai is an unfortunate case. I think she is absolutely beautiful, sophisticated and mature (wow compare her to 2008 US nationals), but the UR!!! It's just so sad to watch a talented skater suffer because of UR calls because she is so good in other aspects. (Seriously, some skaters looked like they were crawling on the ice compared to Mirai- she's got the speed as well!!!) However, I guess Mirai has to deal with her UR calls to compete against skaters who fully rotate. Figure skating is beautiful to watch, but it can be brutal.

 

[Layfan]

I am not so sure and maybe someone else can add to this - but I thought it was Frank who told Lori he wanted something more grownup for Mirai this season.

Initially I did read Mirai did not want to skate to Carmen but was convinced by her team to go for it.

Here is a clip with Mirai discussing it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jakLO78EfBE

Oh! Thanks, Janetfan. I wish I could find a link to the article I saw. it was in a major newspaper, the Post or Times or something. Maybe the reporter got it mixed up and said it was Mirai that came to her with Carmen when really it was Frank. But the story definitely implied that Lori was lukewarm to the idea at first. I've also read interviews with Frank saying that he spent a lot of time trying to convince Mirai that she could perform AND hit the elements and that she mostly thought about the elements when she skated. Maybe "Carmen" was part of that strategy. A risk that mostly paid off, i think!

Mirai is so cute in that interview!! She is a work in progress but I'm so glad I finally have an American woman that I'm enthusiastically rooting for. Well, there was always Alissa but it's just so hard being an Alissa fan.:no:

 

[janetfan]

Ugh, I noticed that Yuna's name has come up several times in this thread, and I just wanted to point out that Yuna set her first world record without any "reputation" in her first senior debut at 2007 world championship. I completely agree with you that there should be some guide line between TES and PCS, but I don't see how Yuna is always the prime example of a skater who receives high PCS because of her reputation. She's actually one of the skaters who receives PCS lower than her TES.


Mirai is an unfortunate case. I think she is absolutely beautiful, sophisticated and mature (wow compare her to 2008 US nationals), but the UR!!! It's just so sad to watch a talented skater suffer because of UR calls because she is so good in other aspects. (Seriously, some skaters looked like they were crawling on the ice compared to Mirai- she's got the speed as well!!!) However, I guess Mirai has to deal with her UR calls to compete against skaters who fully rotate. Figure skating is beautiful to watch, but it can be brutal.

Mirai just finished a tremendous growth spurt and lost most of last year to injury.
Her new coach said due to her growth he had to start over and he has completely reworked her jump techique.

Typicall this takes more than half a year and I actually think Mirai is making good progress. The jumps are still big and it is just a matter of time and training before she gets past her ur problem.

Carrol also said she is doing 3x3's in practice and landing about 50% of them. He insists on a higher percentage before putting them into competition but said the Olympics is different and he may let her go for it.

Remember Mirai is just 16 and appears to be on the right track. I don't see any USA girls and few in the wolrd beating her if she continues to improve.

With better rotations and a 3x3 Mirai could take a step up to the top level. I hope it happens by next season - but we will have to wait and see how it goes.

 

[jenaj]

I'm not a big fan of the most over-used figure skating music (Carmen), but I thought Mirai's program was wonderfully constructed and really built up to an exciting finish. I can't wait to see it again at the Olympics.

 

[janetfan]

Oh! Thanks, Janetfan. I wish I could find a link to the article I saw. it was in a major newspaper, the Post or Times or something. Maybe the reporter got it mixed up and said it was Mirai that came to her with Carmen when really it was Frank. But the story definitely implied that Lori was lukewarm to the idea at first. I've also read interviews with Frank saying that he spent a lot of time trying to convince Mirai that she could perform AND hit the elements and that she mostly thought about the elements when she skated. Maybe "Carmen" was part of that strategy. A risk that mostly paid off, i think!

Mirai is so cute in that interview!! She is a work in progress but I'm so glad I finally have an American woman that I'm enthusiastically rooting for. Well, there was always Alissa but it's just so hard being an Alissa fan.:no:

I will always be a fan of Alissa's beautiful skating. I was so sad to see her miss her opening lutz - but it is just one of those things.

I think it was mathman who said he has seen Alissa at shows and practice and she just nails jump after jump.

I am happy about Mirai too and think she is not just talented but a breath of fresh air. She is such a character and her interviews are becoming quite a treat.

 

[silverlake22]

The problem with Laura is not so much about URs. Mostly she pops the jumps or fall on them. But even when her programs contain very few triple jumps, she is rather held up, not held down. Don't get me wrong, I love her skating, but to me sometimes she is not 'punished' enough for her mistakes and poor technical content. Her artistry takes her too far ahead, and to me that is a bit too unbalanced. Especially that with so many popped jumps like in the LP at Euros, the whole quality of her programs just does not have that much impact. I can understand if a wonderful skater messes up one jumping pass, but all the others aspects of his skating make up for it. But you cannot make up for messing up 5 jumping passes, IMO.

In CoP though, Laura could potentially get more points for doing nice doubles than for doing UR triples. If you reason that a UR triple gets a base value as a double, and negative GOEs. If you just did a really good double you could get positive GOEs and then it would be worth more than the UR triple. This is why I think it is completely bogus that a jump with 2 3/4 rotations counts as much as a
jump with 2. The penalty for UR should be like a 1 point deduction, not a downgrade to a double. This is why I think Lepisto always does so well, she usually only lands 3 triples in her LP but when you think about the skaters that get penalized for URs and edge calls, she is not at too much of a disadvantage.

As for Mirai I think she is progressing. The URs are still an issue but they are getting much better. If you watch her CoC LP, her SC LP, and her nationals LP in a row you will see that her jumps have gotten MUCH better even since October.

The other thing is that Mirai has grown 5 inches and gained 30 pounds since she won the US title two years ago, and the year before that when she won juniors she was 4 inches shorter than she was in 2008. That is a lot of change in a short amount of time so obviously she had to pretty much start from scratch. She is now almost 17 and has only grown 1 inch since last year which means she is likely done or nearly done with her growth. This will be a good thing because she can focus on her technique and really see the results.

I don't see her body changing a lot in coming years like Kimmie's did because Mirai is asian and those girls generally tend to stay very slim even when they get older, look at Mao, Yuna, Miki - all of whom are nearly the same height/weight as Mirai.

Mirai has been making huge strides in her skating this year and it is just the beginning. While some skaters peaked when they were 15 or 16 (Kimmie, Mao) I think Mirai could do more the Yuna path and continue to steadily get better as she gets older and matures. She has a great presence which a lot of skaters lack and at nationals seemed more comfortable with herself than last year and this fall. She was sassy in her Carmen program at nats so I think even next year she could pull off a "sexy" program like Yuna has been doing for the past few years. Love this girl :agree:

 

[bekalc]

Ugh, I noticed that Yuna's name has come up several times in this thread, and I just wanted to point out that Yuna set her first world record without any "reputation" in her first senior debut at 2007 world championship..

Huh? Yu-na was reigning Grand Prix Final Champion going into that World championships. She had already established herself as one of the people to watch.

 

[janetfan]

Huh? Yu-na was reigning Grand Prix Final Champion going into that World championships. She had already established herself as one of the people to watch.

Yuna had already won the Jr Worlds and had medaled at every Intl event she had ever entered.

Yuna was a favorite entering '07 Worlds and it strange to say she was unknown in the skating world.

 

[inside edge]

Ugh, I noticed that Yuna's name has come up several times in this thread, and I just wanted to point out that Yuna set her first world record without any "reputation" in her first senior debut at 2007 world championship. I completely agree with you that there should be some guide line between TES and PCS, but I don't see how Yuna is always the prime example of a skater who receives high PCS because of her reputation. She's actually one of the skaters who receives PCS lower than her TES.

She's actually one of the skaters who receives PCS lower than her TES.
:yes: :yes:

 

[bekalc]

Yuna had already won the Jr Worlds and had medaled at every Intl event she had ever entered.

Yuna was a favorite entering '07 Worlds and it strange to say she was unknown in the skating world.

Exactly. Most of the former top skaters had already retired. Asada/Kim were the clear favorites. Yu-na did have a small period of time where she had to maybe work a bit for PCS. But she vaulted very quickly to the top and righfully so. Nagasu though has technical issues that make it impossible for her to do so right now.