Observations on the days of old

[gio]

The early 90's saw the transition into programs with the full set of triples plus the early quads as well as the end of figures. A different crop of skaters emerged in the early 90's, and jumps were emphasized over all other aspects of skating.

Also in the 70s and in the 80s jumps were more important than spins, steps and other skating movements. The only difference was that figures were a lot more important than jumps.

 

[hockeyfan228]

After the dumping of figures, skaters started to focus more on jumps, but also on spins, spirals, step sequences and especially on choreography. IMO, it isn't true that in the 90s skating was just jumps, because also spins, steps and spirals evolved. It was also the period of great artistic skaters such as Michelle Kwan and Lu Chen.

I disagree. In the 90's jumps took over more of the program, given the additional time needed for set-ups for the quads and more difficult triples and the addition of jump combinations in the LP's, not to mention the training time devoted to them. Many of the spins and steps were throw-away, particularly when weighted against the quad. Programs like Curry's in the 70's and Cousins' in the 80's had a larger percentage of the program dedicated to spins, steps, and in-betweens, as well as the smaller jumps in sequence and delayed axels, compared to programs in the 90's.

There are wonderful exceptions like Kwan and Chen, or in Men, Wylie and Petrenko, in the 90's, but there were great artistic skaters long before them. (Fleming, Lynn, Hammill, Seyfert [athletic style, but still great style], Nepala, etc.)

 

[gio]

I disagree. In the 90's jumps took over more of the program, given the additional time needed for set-ups for the quads and more difficult triples and the addition of jump combinations in the LP's, not to mention the training time devoted to them. Many of the spins and steps were throw-away, particularly when weighted against the quad. Programs like Curry's in the 70's and Cousins' in the 80's had a larger percentage of the program dedicated to spins, steps, and in-betweens, as well as the smaller jumps in sequence and delayed axels, compared to programs in the 90's.

There are wonderful exceptions like Kwan and Chen, or in Men, Wylie and Petrenko, in the 90's, but there were great artistic skaters long before them. (Fleming, Lynn, Hammill, Seyfert [athletic style, but still great style], Nepala, etc.)

But it is also true that now spirals and step sequences are a lot more difficult than once. Same thing for the spins. So they evolved in the period 90s-2000. I don't say that this is good, because I hate to see all that change of edges and positions in spins and I miss a lot the delayed axels, small jumps and the maybe simple but beautiful spins. One thing that I don't miss are figures!

 

[Mafke]

I don't know, because Midori Ito lost some titles because of figures. And also two skaters as Annett Potsch (sp?) and Dagmar Lurz won the Olympics because they were good in figures, but weren't great in free skating. After the dumping of figures, skaters started to focus more on jumps, but also on spins, spirals, step sequences and especially on choreography. .

But they often don't have the skills to do certain things right. The emphasis is to get the big tricks down and never mind appropriate technique (see Sara Hughes' dysfunctional lutz entry and cheated landings, would her style have been better with figures? it certainly wouldn't have been worse).

And Anett Poetzsch was actually a pretty good free skater, not the most exciting in the world at the time but entirely credible (she was a very strong third in lake placid LP and won theworlds LP in 78 IINM) look her up in youtube and you'll probably be pleasantly surprised. Lurz was a lot weaker in free skating (though she had a good scratch spin) but only won olympic bronze.

I think they should have reworked things in the 70's to have separate figures, free skating and combined competitions (the combined could be a couple of figures and the SP for example). The young hotshots (and/or skaters that would never be good at figures, like Ito an alltime favorite) could win free skating while the more mature and balanced skaters would do better in the combined. More medals (especially at olympics) would also mean more stars, which certainly couldn't hurt. I think the introduction of mini-medals was kind of an attempt to get to that stage, but it never got that far, too bad.

Even now I wish they'd rework the SP a little and split the SP and LP into separate competitions. Under COP there's really no practical reason for the SP to exist as a watered down prelude to the LP anymore except to seed for the LP and I'm sure a better way could be found for that.

 

[gio]

But they often don't have the skills to do certain things right. The emphasis is to get the big tricks down and never mind appropriate technique (see Sara Hughes' dysfunctional lutz entry and cheated landings, would her style have been better with figures? it certainly wouldn't have been worse). [QUOTE/]

For this I agree with you! Once the skaters had a very good Lutz.

And Anett Poetzsch was actually a pretty good free skater, not the most exciting in the world at the time but entirely credible (she was a very strong third in lake placid LP and won theworlds LP in 78 IINM) look her up in youtube and you'll probably be pleasantly surprised.

I have her Oly program. She was good, but Denise Biellman was much better. She had to win that Olympics! It was unjust.

 

[JaeJ]

I agree that the programs were easier, based on easier jumps, spins and footwork, but I disagree that people are unappreciative of the difficulty of Plushenko's 4/3/2. No one else has tried it, CoP or no CoP.


Am I completely mistaken or didn't Yagudin successfully compete this combo at the Salt Lake Olympics?

 

[gkelly]

But they often don't have the skills to do certain things right. The emphasis is to get the big tricks down and never mind appropriate technique (see Sara Hughes' dysfunctional lutz entry and cheated landings, would her style have been better with figures?

You mean her jump style?

If you've seen her "You'll Never Walk Alone" exhibition, it's clear that she did have fairly advanced figures skills, well beyond any figures tests she would have had to pass before they were taken out of the US test requirements when she was 8.

 

[soogar]

You mean her jump style?

If you've seen her "You'll Never Walk Alone" exhibition, it's clear that she did have fairly advanced figures skills, well beyond any figures tests she would have had to pass before they were taken out of the US test requirements when she was 8.

Exactly- I would say both Sarah and Emily have very good use of their edges and whatever edge issue SArah had with the lutz were not due to poor edges. Plus I really don't get the comparison between early skating and modern for lutzes. Only a small handful of ladies were doing 3 lutzes in competition in the early days. It can't be said that skaters with figures would have had better lutzes because they weren't doing 3 lutzes back then. I don't think figures really helps with a 3 lutz- you either have the ability to do one or you don't. Now a 3 lutz is a mandatory jump for a woman so you're going to see a lot of bad lutzes because the women don't have the option of leaving out a less than perfect jump. Back in the day, the only ladies who did lutzes were the ones who had perfect lutzes. Probably because jumps didn't really matter that much anyway. Kat Witt won titles over skaters like Ito and Manley who did have 3 lutzes- and I don't believe her big rival Debbie Thomas had a 3 lutz.

 

[gio]

Exactly- I would say both Sarah and Emily have very good use of their edges and whatever edge issue SArah had with the lutz were not due to poor edges. Plus I really don't get the comparison between early skating and modern for lutzes. Only a small handful of ladies were doing 3 lutzes in competition in the early days.

At least once the double Lutzes weren't flutzes. I've seen skaters today that can't do even a double lutz without flutzing and one of this is Sasha Cohen.

 

[hockeyfan228]

At least once the double Lutzes weren't flutzes.

And they had the most beautiful counterbalances, too. Just beautiful to watch.

 

[Mafke]

You mean her (S Hughes': maf) jump style?

If you've seen her "You'll Never Walk Alone" exhibition, it's clear that she did have fairly advanced figures skills, well beyond any figures tests she would have had to pass before they were taken out of the US test requirements when she was 8.

Well, specifically the flutz, it seems that whatever figure skills she has/d were never integrated into her freeskating technique. One of the most important things figures taught (which maybe Hughes didn't get or apply in learning jumps) was how to hold an edge while preparing to do something else, or as one commentator (a judge) on rssif wrote:

"there's nothing quite like a BO8 or a Back Serpentine to
teach you about holding a BO edge against all the warring forces of physics."

 

[gkelly]

Actually I'd say that Hughes's problems with the lutz had more to do with bad picking technique than with not being able to hold an edge. Her edge jumps were much better than her toe jumps in general, she did good walleys, her edges and turns while skating between elements were excellent, but she couldn't PICK and jump while holding a right back outside edge.

 

[76olympics]

I am still trying to recover from the 1990s being classified as "days of old"! Sonja Henie must have been competing in medieval times..

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I am still trying to recover from the 1990s being classified as "days of old"! Sonja Henie must have been competing in medieval times..

I think Sonja fans don't want to admit they saw her in competition. Even I hate to admit I saw Barbara Ann Scott at the Roxy theatre in New York. But I was only two years old.

Joe

 

[lane85]

Lambiel and Yagudin executed a 4/3/2 combo only once.
As for Joubert, he has never landed such a combo and I will be very surprised if he ever manages to land one because the jump combinations are not exactly his strong point.

I am positive that Alexei landed the 4/3/2 at the 2002 Worlds and at the Olympics...so he did it at least twice - and it was at the 2002 Worlds warm up that he did the 4/3/3, he also did this jump at another competition - forgot which, during the warmup when Plushenko was present...

 

[IDLERACER]

I've been studying a little ancient history on Youtube myself. When was the last time you ever saw/heard anybody skate to what sounds like an instrumental sea chanty like THIS?​

 

[antmanb]

I am still trying to recover from the 1990s being classified as "days of old"! Sonja Henie must have been competing in medieval times..

It was more for the turn of phrase rather than because they were a long time ago...i guess i was thinking of the "middle ages" that came after the end of figures but before the CoP years!

Ant

 

[Eeyora]

Remember Kristi Yamaguchi used to perform her lutz at the end of her program as did Michelle Kwan during her early years.

 

[SeaniBu]

I am so glad not to hear Bob Varsha comment anymore. Sorry (Bob if you are reading) but this guy never could stop talking. Thank goodness he does not comment anymore.