On the taboo against self-teaching

[sampaguita]

It seems self-teaching here gets a lot of bad rep. Here's an example of my self-taught salchow, two-foot takeoff technique (toe-loop style), which I worked on after the the Learn-to-Skate Intro to Private Lessons ended (my salchow at the end of that was toe-leading, spinny, pretty bad, but at least it landed haha). I've recently begun group classes and found a coach who teaches her salchow this way. I showed her my salchow and got her approval. Here's a video:

- YouTube

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www.youtube.com

Self-teaching is difficult. In my case, I watched a lot of videos (Jeremy Allen's icoachskating video https://icoachskating.com/salchow-jeremy-allen/ was my top resource), filmed myself A LOT and watched those videos in slow motion, and also while skating, made a conscious effort to understand which part of my body was causing problems. My learning style is more biomechanics-oriented, and was lucky to have had a dance coach before who taught me how each part of my body affects my skating.

I'd say the only feedback I got while developing my salchow was from a girl who was at the same rink as I was -- and told me that my arm timing was off. You can say that was some form of coaching -- important, yes, but not hours of coaching.

So I guess my main takeaway here is -- self-teaching with good results is POSSIBLE. Granted, I wasn't self-taught from the very beginning and had my dance coach teach me the foundations of skating. But it is definitely possible. And to those who are against self-teaching -- everyone self-teaches for some reason. Some for financial reasons, some because they couldn't find a coach who can fix their mistakes (both for me). Though I'm all for encouraging people to get a coach, telling people to "just get a coach" is not very helpful, and can be really insensitive to those who enjoy skating but can't afford proper coaching.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Yeah, not touching this as it's going to start a whole argument with those of us that know better and have the training and experience to know so.

 

[spinningdancer]

You technically got coaching, and I don't think anyone is saying a person needs a lot of coaching. Some may need a lot, some may need less. A weekly group class is considered coaching, and while you generally don't get a ton of one on one time due to the size of the group, you still get enough feedback to correct any major technique mistakes, which sounds similar to the type of coaching you received from your friend. When I've seen people self teach themselves jumps with no feedback whatsoever from a coach or higher level skater friend who has already mastered the jump, they always look bad. I have never seen anyone self teach themselves jumps with no feedback and land them well. I think self teaching with no feedback whatsoever is discouraged because it can be pretty dangerous. If someone doesn't have money for lessons, they probably also don't have money to cover a broken arm or ER visit for a concussion.

 

[sampaguita]

You technically got coaching, and I don't think anyone is saying a person needs a lot of coaching. Some may need a lot, some may need less. A weekly group class is considered coaching, and while you generally don't get a ton of one on one time due to the size of the group, you still get enough feedback to correct any major technique mistakes, which sounds similar to the type of coaching you received from your friend. When I've seen people self teach themselves jumps with no feedback whatsoever from a coach or higher level skater friend who has already mastered the jump, they always look bad. I have never seen anyone self teach themselves jumps with no feedback and land them well. I think self teaching with no feedback whatsoever is discouraged because it can be pretty dangerous. If someone doesn't have money for lessons, they probably also don't have money to cover a broken arm or ER visit for a concussion.

I definitely am FOR providing feedback. But I'm not sure if it's a country-specific thing, but in my case, "getting a coach" is a season commitment, which can be pretty expensive compared to skating on public sessions and getting a private lesson as needed.

Coaching videos abound on Youtube from actual coaches. I've watched a number of them and they are pretty good. The one missing thing is feedback, which if you're skating coachless is mostly done by video analysis. I've seen at least one coach who offers a feedback-by-video service, and if you think about it, that's exactly what posters here asking for advice are looking for. So when I see comments like "get a coach", I understand it as "I don't have the time/energy/resources to help you out." Nothing wrong with that, no one is obligated to help anyway, but I think comments like "you need proper foundations, work on stabilizing the entrance edge first, try to get a coach who can help you with that" instead of "don't self-teach, go get a coach" would be more constructive.

 

[WednesdayMarch]

This is a public internet forum. Some of us don't want to get sued. Or held responsible when a 15 year old beginner hurts themselves.

 

[karne]

I refuse to encourage people to give themselves shoddy technique and to increase their risk of injury. Absolutely not.

 

[Minz]

NO. NO. NO.

Just no.

 

[christy]

I definitely am FOR providing feedback. But I'm not sure if it's a country-specific thing, but in my case, "getting a coach" is a season commitment, which can be pretty expensive compared to skating on public sessions and getting a private lesson as needed.

Coaching videos abound on Youtube from actual coaches. I've watched a number of them and they are pretty good. The one missing thing is feedback, which if you're skating coachless is mostly done by video analysis. I've seen at least one coach who offers a feedback-by-video service, and if you think about it, that's exactly what posters here asking for advice are looking for. So when I see comments like "get a coach", I understand it as "I don't have the time/energy/resources to help you out." Nothing wrong with that, no one is obligated to help anyway, but I think comments like "you need proper foundations, work on stabilizing the entrance edge first, try to get a coach who can help you with that" instead of "don't self-teach, go get a coach" would be more constructive.

I've posted a separate thread about coaching via video feedback as I think it's an interesting concept. My personal experience, when I tried it out of curiousity, was that it didn't work well. Success may well depend on the actual coach, and I had seen good reviews of the coach I tried, but the experience fell way below expectations, but that's for the other thread.

and I have a very different take on the "get a coach" comments. I agree with Wednesday March and Karne.

 

[sampaguita]

I've posted a separate thread about coaching via video feedback as I think it's an interesting concept. My personal experience, when I tried it out of curiousity, was that it didn't work well. Success may well depend on the actual coach, and I had seen good reviews of the coach I tried, but the experience fell way below expectations, but that's for the other thread.

and I have a very different take on the "get a coach" comments. I agree with Wednesday March and Karne.

I think it really depends on the coach. Coaches who can't tell you what's wrong with your technique in person probably won't be able to do it on video. My guess is that coaches who specialize in video analysis would be the best to go to (Trevor Laak of icoachskating comes to mind).

 

[Vicki7]

There’s a reason it’s so frowned upon here - it’s a one way ticket to bad technique with a high risk of injury thrown in.

 

[mskater93]

As for video lessons, with my secondary coach, we do real time FB messenger video lessons. When we do those, we concentrate on something specific that we can set the camera in a space that she can see that thing.

 

[Arwen17]

The thing is, you can often get away with a lot of bad technique on the low level stuff. But you’re going to hit a brick wall once you try to advance because your foundations were so poorly laid in the beginning.

And poor technique can be very dangerous. You’re flipping a coin when you self-teach because there’s no feedback on what causes injuries.

And I totally agree with: if you can’t afford a coach, how in the world are you going to afford the medical bills for an injury from self-teaching?

Plus, Internet forums are just super bad for feedback. Even when you have a coach and still asked for advice online, 99% of it didn’t help me because every coach has their own technique. The internet is full of different techniques and coaches that usually just don’t mesh very well with your own coach’s game plan.

Even taking lessons with a 2nd coach in person can cause the same issue because every coach is different, unless it’s a Russian school where everyone has agreed to teach the same way and same technique.

 

[mskater93]

Even taking lessons with a 2nd coach in person can cause the same issue because every coach is different, unless it’s a Russian school where everyone has agreed to teach the same way and same technique.

Unless you know the coaches are similar in teaching style

 

[silver.blades]

Even taking lessons with a 2nd coach in person can cause the same issue because every coach is different, unless it’s a Russian school where everyone has agreed to teach the same way and same technique.

Although sometimes this is the reason to work with a second coach. I was not getting the double toe, so my coach sent me to other coaches with other techniques because how she taught it was not clicking for me.

 

[sampaguita]

Although sometimes this is the reason to work with a second coach. I was not getting the double toe, so my coach sent me to other coaches with other techniques because how she taught it was not clicking for me.

I agree with this too. I've had several coaches over the years, and while they mostly had different techniques, it's just understanding which technique works well with your body and what doesn't. I had a few coaches who weren't very open-minded about other techniques and I just did stuff their way, but that doesn't mean I can't do the same move with a different technique.

At the beginner level, it can get confusing though, that's for sure.

 

[christy]

Although sometimes this is the reason to work with a second coach. I was not getting the double toe, so my coach sent me to other coaches with other techniques because how she taught it was not clicking for me.

I agree. I work with 2 coaches and the complement each other. Most of the time they say the same thing, but sometimes one will have an alternative suggestion that just works.

 

[christy]

I think it really depends on the coach. Coaches who can't tell you what's wrong with your technique in person probably won't be able to do it on video. My guess is that coaches who specialize in video analysis would be the best to go to (Trevor Laak of icoachskating comes to mind).

In person the coach has a 360 view and can base their feedback on the full picture. In video they are getting a very limited view. It may be worth watching the odd video to see how others teach stuff, like different entries to a jump, but when I tried a so-called specialist video analysis coach the so-called "feedback" was just a generic video, so definitely not an evaluation of my technique, what was wrong, what needed to change.

 

[sampaguita]

In person the coach has a 360 view and can base their feedback on the full picture. In video they are getting a very limited view. It may be worth watching the odd video to see how others teach stuff, like different entries to a jump, but when I tried a so-called specialist video analysis coach the so-called "feedback" was just a generic video, so definitely not an evaluation of my technique, what was wrong, what needed to change.

I don't think the coach has a 360 view. Maybe a zoomed-in view, but definitely not 360. Multiple cameras/multiple takes from different angles will definitely help. I think the best advantages of video are (a) slow motion and replay and (b) the fact that the skater can see what their body is doing (coach can draw on the video, etc, to drive the point across).

Sorry to hear about the "feedback" video you got (didn't seem like feedback to me). I guess that's on the coach though, not on the technology. Just sending a generic video isn't "video analysis", in my opinion.

 

[gkelly]

In person the coach has a 360 view and can base their feedback on the full picture.

I don't think the coach has a 360 view.

Why not, in person?

If the coach is on skates, they can go anywhere on the rink they need to see the element from whichever angle they need.

If they're not on skates, they can still walk around the outside of the ice to different locations as needed, with some angles perhaps limited by the architecture etc. of the rink.

They can also ask the skater to try something again in a different part of the ice or with a different angle of approach, so they can see the move from a different angle.

With video, especially with a fixed camera position, that is not possible.

 

[christy]

I don't think the coach has a 360 view. Maybe a zoomed-in view, but definitely not 360. Multiple cameras/multiple takes from different angles will definitely help. I think the best advantages of video are (a) slow motion and replay and (b) the fact that the skater can see what their body is doing (coach can draw on the video, etc, to drive the point across).

Sorry to hear about the "feedback" video you got (didn't seem like feedback to me). I guess that's on the coach though, not on the technology. Just sending a generic video isn't "video analysis", in my opinion.

Most of the time the camera is on the boards, or I suppose you could ask a friend to video you, but each video is from a single location.

My coach sometimes takes video to show me what I'm doing, whilst they are on the ice with me, and they will then walk through the video in slow motion, but the difference is that they are doing that in real time, and they can explain it to me, and watch me make the changes they are suggesting to ensure I understand.