Pairs FS Worldwide: The Divine Discipline

[skylark]

I've been thinking all day about Mishina/Galliamov's connection, because I think not only do they have a great on-ice connection, I almost feel it's unique. They've taken a direction that other pairs have played with, and they've created something entirely extraordinary.

People have made remarks about yesterday's FS that they need better skating skills, better connection. The classic things you might say about a team that's this young and this new-looking. When people say that (and I think Mark Handretty may have), do they mean they want a pair to look into each others' eyes during the skate and show a romantic connection? That's been a standard for a long time, I think, and it's one reason brother-sister pairs have to work so hard to develop a different aura. Don't want to be icky.

I showed my husband Anastasia and Alexandr's FS today. When they were about 3/4 through it, he said, "He skates like he's her, and she skates like she's him." Bingo! They're so perfectly attuned with each other that it's like they're astrally connected or something. I feel that this is related to what everyone sees in the GOATs Gordeeva and Grinkov. They skated as one. But M/G are often doing different moves from each other, not the same ones, but complementary. The choreographic complexity is fantastic. An aspect of this that I've been admiring for a while is that Nastya presents Sasha beautifully in the places where he's highlighted, just as he presents her beautifully in the places where she's highlighted. This is counterintuitive with the old compliment that a pairs man presents his partner, calls attention to her without overshadowing her. And it goes against the old "she's the flower, he's the stem" formula.

This is why I've been so fascinated with the choreographic touches that have Sasha doing something cool -- and he's such a diva! and I mean that in the very best way! And Nastya's so generous with her attention. They're both stars, and the pair is a sparkling constellation.

To bring this down a few places, to the US pairs. Jessica and Brian have a beautiful connection of the classical kind. Alexa and Chris had it and played up the romantic connection and were proud that it was real, not acting. Alexa and Brandon, so far, have chosen some romantic style music and look to be possibly leaning toward playing the romantic connection. All this is just fine, and very pleasing to many (including me, but I'm demanding: Like Goldilocks: not too much, not too little. Just right).

Sui and Han said last year that their connection is in their mutual dedication to interpreting the music well. Ashley and Tim have always said they're not going to do the flower/stem thing and their vision is of two equal partners. Their connection comes from their passion for music and movement as well.

I also had a random thought yesterday during the final flight of the pairs' free skates. And maybe it's crazy that I hadn't thought it before, and maybe plenty of other people have entertained this thought. But it just lit up in my mind that this particular competition with those four particular pairs seemed like a sort of dividing line between the younger generation of pairs (M/G and B/K are 19 and 21) and the older pairs. This year, this World's. Now of course all this could switch around next year, domestically, internationally and at Olympics and Worlds and it's entirely possible for the late-twenties pairs to re-establish their dominance. But even if that happens, this could be an interesting trend.

side note: I read a Google translation of an interview of Sergei Voronov this week where he talked about his work with T/M. He said he did a lot of research on pairs, to deepen his understanding of what makes pairs work. He said Sergei Grinkov took the Moscow style, which emphasized unison, to the highest level with Katia, to the point where they made the most ordinary moves seem like magic. I love that! We can all aspire to take something ordinary about ourselves and make it magic!

You can tell ... I think Anastasia and Alexandr are quite special, and a lot of their excellence was there before they began with Tamara, though she brought out the magic ... and I'm really excited about watching and re-watching them in the future!

I'm really interested in hearing what other people think of the traditions and styles of pairs. I'm obsessed

 

[anonymoose_au]

side note: I read a Google translation of an interview of Sergei Voronov this week where he talked about his work with T/M. He said he did a lot of research on pairs, to deepen his understanding of what makes pairs work. He said Sergei Grinkov took the Moscow style, which emphasized unison, to the highest level with Katia, to the point where they made the most ordinary moves seem like magic. I love that! We can all aspire to take something ordinary about ourselves and make it magic!

Aww, Sergei V is so thoughtful! I love that he did research! I hope T/M continue working with him. I'm a bit worried about them heading back to Florida...but maybe getting away from Russia will be good for them?

 

[skylark]

Aww, Sergei V is so thoughtful! I love that he did research! I hope T/M continue working with him. I'm a bit worried about them heading back to Florida...but maybe getting away from Russia will be good for them?

He really is. I don't know ... maybe escaping to Florida could be good. I'd hate to see Sergei separated from them though ... he's clearly such a source of positivity and encouragement for them. Maybe he could go with

 

[Dreamer57]

For most of the pairs, it was definitely a lack of competitions this season (for most being the only competition of the season). For instance, even when coming back from injury (like this season) S/H usually at least have 4cc to kind of warm up before worlds. I don't think any skaters from the last two groups probably struggled too much with finding ice time, but I know that was a tough part for many other skaters that don't come from major fs countries.
As for what plagued the Russian pairs (besides M/G who went clean of course), who were clearly the most competition ready based on the season - I'd say for T/M, they felt too much pressure being expected to win(most of the predictions I saw had them 1st, followed by B/K then S/H), and I don't know, they just seem to make several bobbles when it really matters. B/K- I'd chalk it up to the combination of lack of senior worlds experience + being in a winning position after the SP. Coming off a strong sp and without nearly as much pressure/expectations (I would imagine) as the other two Russian pairs, they rose to the occasion in the FS.

Besides international competitions, I'm very intrigued to see how pairs rankings in Russia will shake up over the next season. P/R have a dire lack of competitive sbs jumps (although I think their pairs elements are the best, no competition), but P/K are also still young and will only get better, and have a high scoring potential with sbs jumps. They currently do sbs 3F and used to do a 3t-eu-3t their last junior season, I believe. T/M are in another class amongst the Russians in terms of basic skating and polish, but they seem to crack under pressure and the fed may grow none too happy with them if this continues.

Thanks for the detailed answer!
I think Sui still has an ankle injury which is why they did not take part in the gala.

When you have nerves or a competition-shortened season like this one, the jumps are going to be the first things to go, or to be tentative about.

Thanks - this makes a lot of sense now!

 

[rollerblade]

Do pairs have zayak rules for their SBS jumps?

 

[coldblueeyes]

Do pairs have zayak rules for their SBS jumps?

They can only repeat a jump in combination(in the same combination or in different combos? I'm not sure about that). Even if you had the perfect 3T you wouldn't be able to jump it three, or four times, in a program, though.

But imagine if you had three good triples, you could potentially jump four of them in the FS--something crazy like 3F and 3S-3T-3T. That is certainly the kind of advantage you could strive for when you're not sure about quads.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I've been thinking all day about Mishina/Galliamov's connection, because I think not only do they have a great on-ice connection, I almost feel it's unique. They've taken a direction that other pairs have played with, and they've created something entirely extraordinary.

People have made remarks about yesterday's FS that they need better skating skills, better connection. The classic things you might say about a team that's this young and this new-looking. When people say that (and I think Mark Handretty may have), do they mean they want a pair to look into each others' eyes during the skate and show a romantic connection? That's been a standard for a long time, I think, and it's one reason brother-sister pairs have to work so hard to develop a different aura. Don't want to be icky.

I showed my husband Anastasia and Alexandr's FS today. When they were about 3/4 through it, he said, "He skates like he's her, and she skates like she's him." Bingo! They're so perfectly attuned with each other that it's like they're astrally connected or something.

I'm happy for you that you are so in love with Mishina/Galliamov. I have certainly snapped to attention with their transformation under Moskvina. I still believe that her assistance has been crucial to M/G's breakthrough, so it's not like M/G 'created something extraordinary' all by themselves. They are being helped and molded by Moskvina, with some additional assistance, e.g., from Zhulin. M/G's transformation this season is very similar to how B/K broke through after their debut senior season, when Moskvina began coaching and mentoring them.

From what I've seen with their new programs, I think M/G have a limitless future ahead of them, but I hesitate to go overboard with praise. I think what they have accomplished is amazing in its own right and speaks for itself. The scores were a bit high for such a young team, IMHO. They are still learning and growing. But I do get the excitement M/G engender. If they continue creating something unique with Moskvina's assistance and their own desires and personalities, it will be great to watch. M/G's fp was amazing in how they performed the intricacies with such confidence. It's a huge step up for them. Still, they didn't create the program. They brought to life what they were given by Moskvina, and also apparently Zhulin who had some input with the choreo, which is cool.

What Mark Hanretty said about M/G in his commentary, I completely agree with. T/M are more polished technically, but sadly T/M lack confidence and they seem full of self-doubt, which is too bad. I remember wondering years ago why Moskvina didn't work with T/M. But I imagine it was a political thing, what with Nina Mozer being T/M's coach originally. Maybe Mozer wasn't interested in consulting with Moskvina. Unfortunately, Mozer ended up giving T/M the questionable Candyman program which was completed unsuited for them. Plus, the judges did T/M no favors by rewarding them with mistakes for that questionable program. I think that season was the beginning of full-on self-doubt and uncertainty by T/M. They have rarely skated cleanly since that season. T/M's biggest downfall is never having found just the right music and choreo to define and express who they are. Plus, T/M have always needed to figure out a way show more connection together on the ice.

Again, M/G are young and they are still learning. They are still a bit rough around the edges. One of their lift moves toward the end of their fp was unsteady, and they had slight lack of unison on a spin in the sp. IMO, Moskvina sometimes skirts the edge of cramming too many busy moves into a program, but overall both of M/G's programs work tremendously well this season. This is a huge step for M/G, and it will be interesting to see what they go on to do in the future. The current pique of B/K also bears watching to see the outcome. Hopefully, B/K will learn the benefit of working harder to get even better themselves so they can push M/G and vice versa.

The judges love rewarding Russian pairs skaters by virtue of their solid technique, even when they are young, inconsistent and new on the scene, which was the case for both B/K and M/G in their debut senior seasons. In their sophomore years, they each grew tremendously under Moskvina, and have received complete blessing by the judges. T/M were also heavily rewarded points-wise, but they didn't quite gain dominance because the top senior scene was a bit more crowded with veterans when they were on their way up, in addition to T/M lacking in good music selection and palpable on-ice connection.

Hanretty was not talking about a romantic connection. To my understanding, he was simply pointing out that with more experience and maturity, M/G will become more polished technically and aesthetically. Every team will be different, and there are endless things to discuss regarding the different avenues teams can take with what they have to offer. This is what the excitement of pairs is all about for me.

Another poster discussed romantic connection between pairs in this thread, I believe:

2021 Worlds: Pairs Short Program

Totally agree! Here on Goldenskate there are certain skaters who are like a third rail—anything remotely negative said about them will result in electrocution :) Yes, but I think you should say whatever you want. People need to be less sensitive about their favorites. Personally, I love Sui/...

www.goldenskate.com

M/G are often doing different moves from each other, not the same ones, but complementary. The choreographic complexity is fantastic. An aspect of this that I've been admiring for a while is that Nastya presents Sasha beautifully in the places where he's highlighted, just as he presents her beautifully in the places where she's highlighted. This is counterintuitive with the old compliment that a pairs man presents his partner, calls attention to her without overshadowing her. And it goes against the old "she's the flower, he's the stem" formula.

This is why I've been so fascinated with the choreographic touches that have Sasha doing something cool -- and he's such a diva! and I mean that in the very best way! And Nastya's so generous with her attention. They're both stars, and the pair is a sparkling constellation.

I'm glad this team makes you so happy and sparks a lot of connections and musings for you. Yes, Moskvina and Zhulin have done a great job of bringing out the talent and the connection that M/G have. But M/G still have improvements to make. It should be exciting to watch in coming seasons to see what directions they will go in with music selection. This is a positive step up for them. As Elena Bechke said in the recent TSL episode on the pairs competition, and I paraphrase: "M/G were in a position of being able to skate without a lot of pressure. They had nothing to lose, and they delivered."

You mentioned earlier an 'astral connection,' and now a 'sparkling constellation,' I'm really at a loss to see this. I think M/G are an exciting young pair team on the rise, who have much ahead of them with still a lot of work to do and lessons to learn. You are seeing much more than I am detecting in their connection. Maybe you have seen more interviews of them together. Your admiration for M/G is rather sweet.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

You're underrating S/H and overrating the others, including Gordeeva/Grinkov. When they won the Olympics in 1988, they were very young and didn't have great artistry. They became more mature over the years, but they also became more inconsistent technically after gaining artistic refinement, and they were never able to do SBS Triple jump. Grinkov was never the most expressive performer either. Han displays more versatility. For that matter, so does Sui compared to Gordeeva. G/G did have really stunning glide over the ice and unison though, that aspect of their skating is probably still the best ever in Pairs.

S/H throughout their career they've shown some the best technical ability ever (only pair to do multiple clean Quads in a program) and some of the best artistry ever (Blues for Klook, Bridge over Troubled Water). In terms of intricacy of choreography they are unmatched by anyone else to date too.

G/G skated during a completely different era. For me, they exhibited tremendous technical precision and unison in a mesmerizing way. They also had such beautiful programs and their emotional connection was palpable. G/G were excellent when they were young, and they only grew in mastery over their career together.

I don't underrate any athletes. I always discuss my perceptions of how I view athletes' skill level and accomplishments on the basis of my over 50 years of watching, reading, researching and passionately learning about figure skating.

I think you have to give Lori Nichol the most credit for S/H's choreography. And no, I personally don't see S/H as having the most intricate pairs choreography ever. Nichol is very good at what she does in bringing out skaters' personalities with good music choices. But there are other pairs and other choreographers who have contributed mightily to the discipline, including with intricate choreography and innovative moves.

S/H skate with a great deal of precision and drama that is compelling, at their best. But it is only in recent years, that S/H have improved significantly in aesthetic aspects. Prior to that, they were fun and exciting to watch with their bravura technical elements and their youthful energy. They had to grow in artistry and understanding of the musical nuances. Undeniably, S/H were helped by Nichol and by their legendary coaches, Shen/Zhao, who strived mightily over years on the Worlds scene prior to making their mark. I find S/Z's connection and creative rise more interesting than S/H's, which doesn't negate the amazing things S/H have achieved together.

S/H's 2017 half season Simon & Garfunkel Bridge Over Troubled Water program was wonderful. I believe their musical choice was inspired by what John Kerr, et al., did for James/Cipres in their 2016-2017 breakthrough fp (the still influential and seemingly becoming a war horse selection), Simon & Garfunkel The Sound of Silence, as reinterpreted by Disturbed.

 

[Skatesocs]

I think you have to give Lori Nichol the most credit for S/H's choreography. And no, I personally don't see S/H as having the most intricate pairs choreography ever. Nichol is very good at what she does in bringing out skaters' personalities with good music choices. But there are other pairs and other choreographers who have contributed mightily to the discipline, including with intricate choreography and innovative moves.

I think no one is taking credit away from Nichol. Intricacy isn't just "moves" for me (and from his post on the other thread, nor for Blades of Passion). I think you meant to quote my post for S/H and P/J's connection. That's exactly a layer of intricacy in terms of choreo/performance/interpretation that they bring that others are missing - others come more across as "male lead presenting a female lead". Where S/H are equal partners (and P/J, while not on the same level, still bring something different to the table).

I would also say I don't care about "innovative moves" in terms of intricacy. Simple choreography and ideas can work wonders. Note how for instance in Blues For Klook, they reconstitute the broken chords during the entry of this death spiral, and then resolve it into the fluid motion of the death spiral. They continue with the same idea with the SBS combo spin, with the flying entry into a stable (fluid) motion. In general, a lot of the disruptive notes of the musical piece are reconstituted into fluid motion, which is different from the obvious choreography which would be to do everything to the note (not to mention, this translates well to skating which is all about fluidity). And they carry the entire thing off. For me, that is intricacy. I can't find that level of choreography/interpretation in anybody else. Even their own LPs Bridge Over Troubled Water and Rain, In Your Black Eyes don't reach this completion - but they're still better than every other LP I've seen in Pairs.

I will die on the hill of seeing nothing wrong with Candyman. Perhaps I was lucky in that I'd never heard the song before and therefore had no idea what the lyrics were. All I saw was a fun program with pop.

For this I blame that segment of the figure skating fandom who think their personal opinions are SOOOOO important that skaters must be informed of them.

You didn't like Candyman, fine, you can b*tch about it with your friends or on a messageboard.

You know what you DON'T do? Flood the skaters social media with comments like "You're embarrassing yourselves." "This is the worst program I've ever seen." "Don't you want to win? Because you don't deserve to with this trash."

Is anyone truly surprised that T/M have no confidence in themselves now? That they don't know what music suits them? They might have liked that sort of music, and if they did how could they ever admit it?

Before Candyman they skated to a range of music, including Lord of the Dance, Electro Swing and Music. These programs were engaging and
you could tell they were having fun, perhaps they weren't smiling like lunatics, but I felt it.

You know what I feel when I see T/M now? Hesitancy and fear. Because of the way figure skating fans treated them they're scared. Scared of doing the wrong thing, scared of being ridiculed. I don't blame them, because they were.

How are they ever supposed to move past it? No-one will let them forget it.

This isn't directed at you, but I'm always stunned when people are like "Wow, what happened to T/M?"

It's like "Duuuuuuh. A concentrated hate campaign on their program is what happened." Skaters put so MUCH of themselves into their programs, blood, sweat and tears. Those posters who made nasty comments though don't see that. They see themselves as being "helpful". As if calling something that someone was so invested in "trash". You might as well have picked up the nearest garbage can and thrown it on their heads.

Like honestly? I'm surprised they haven't quit. They must truly love the sport.

Oh, GOD, shut up.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

^^ LOL @anonymoose_au! As I said earlier, I try to calm down my emotions about skaters and competitions, though I'm not always successful. We all have our favorites, and there's a tendency to get overexcited when we feel our faves are being slighted. I try to step back when I can to speak honestly, fairly, and as thoughtfully as possible about what I see, which is not meant to slight any fan or any skater. Just my views, and there's no need for heightened emotions in having a friendly discussion. As I said previously, we are not always going to agree, and it's not a requirement.

Regarding T/M's Candyman, it was unavoidable that everyone had an opinion and tended to express how they felt about this program. Even the unflappable and fair-minded fan and writer/interviewer, Claire Cloutier, was straightforward and honest on her Divine Sport blog that season about the problems with this program.

The judges were understandably enamored of T/M's technical and SS, which influenced their over-scoring judgment for this program. The program didn't work for a number of reasons: the loud costumes were the least of it; the choreo was overly cheesy and oops-worthy in connection with some of those lyrics. None of this is T/M's fault. I blame Mozer. Plus, I'm not sure who the choreographer was. I didn't bring up this program in order to overanalyze it, but I guess talking about it has hit a nerve.

The main factor is that Candyman didn't suit T/M's personalities at all. It's commendable that they went out there and tried, but it never worked. The program might have suited a different pair with better choreo, but it did nothing for T/M, and they were clearly hesitant and awkward in skating to it. Also, apparently Mozer was adamant about not changing the program, even after negative reviews, and after seeing that it really wasn't working. I blame the judges for rewarding T/M's Candyman with overdone PCS, and for over-scoring T/M in particular at IDF when they made a number of mistakes, and were still given the win over J/C's well-skated and gorgeous Say Something program in J/C's home country, no less.

To be over-rewarded with mistakes for a program that clearly T/M weren't even comfortable with, surely hurt their confidence. How can anybody feel good about winning when you know you didn't skate your best, and another team did skate better in their home country. The win put an even larger spotlight on how poor the music selection and concept was for T/M. I contend that the judges from the very beginning should have sent the message that the program did not work, via giving lower marks for composition and presentation. But the judges did the opposite. Mozer and the judges are to blame, not fans who expressed their opinions. And it wasn't just a few fans, btw, who didn't like T/M's Candyman. A large contingent of the entire skating community gave that program a thumbs-down.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I think no one is taking credit away from Nichol. Intricacy isn't just "moves" for me (and from his post on the other thread, nor for Blades of Passion). I think you meant to quote my post for S/H and P/J's connection. That's exactly a layer of intricacy in terms of choreo/performance/interpretation that they bring that others are missing - others come more across as "male lead presenting a female lead". Where S/H are equal partners (and P/J, while not on the same level, still bring something different to the table).

I would also say I don't care about "innovative moves" in terms of intricacy. Simple choreography and ideas can work wonders. Note how for instance in Blues For Klook, they reconstitute the broken chords during the entry of this death spiral, and then resolve it into the fluid motion of the death spiral. They continue with the same idea with the SBS combo spin, with the flying entry into a stable (fluid) motion. In general, a lot of the disruptive notes of the musical piece are reconstituted into fluid motion, which is different from the obvious choreography which would be to do everything to the note (not to mention, this translates well to skating which is all about fluidity). And they carry the entire thing off. For me, that is intricacy. I can't find that level of choreography/interpretation in anybody else. Even their own LPs Bridge Over Troubled Water and Rain, In Your Black Eyes don't reach this completion - but they're still better than every other LP I've seen in Pairs.

No, please don't make assumptions about who you think I meant to quote. I always respond to posts that I intend to respond to. That doesn't mean I respond to every post that I might disagree with, or agree with. I was not closely following your conversation in the other thread regarding P/J and S/H, so I can't comment on any references you made or debates you were having with others in that respect.

Of course 'intricacy' in skating choreography constitutes much more than moves. It is about transitions, patterns, footwork, the way difficult elements flow together seamlessly, and especially how the musical nuances are expressed through the choreography, as well as how well the skaters interact with each other in bringing a program to life.

Again Lori Nichol has worked for a long time with S/H, and so it's not just S/H 'reconstituting broken chords,' etc. It is what Lori Nichol sees in S/H and hears in the music, and helps S/H to bring out on the ice. In addition, Shen/Zhao have also worked tirelessly with S/H as their coaches and mentors.

S/H have been quite masterful with some of their recent fps. I didn't particularly care for their sp last season, but I enjoy watching them skate, when they are at their best. What I find especially amazing about S/H is their incredible desire and determination to win. We shall see how their bodies will hold up for this push to win gold in Beijing.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Tarasova/Morozov have always lacked expression. Trying to blame their decline on viewer reactions is absurd. Their own continued technical mistakes, and their federation having younger and seemingly more promising prospects, is likely what has dropped their confidence

S/H skate with a great deal of precision and drama that is compelling, at their best. But it is only in recent years, that S/H have improved significantly in aesthetic aspects. Prior to that, they were fun and exciting to watch with their bravura technical elements and their youthful energy. They had to grow in artistry and understanding of the musical nuances.

It's not only in recent years S/H have shown great artistic ability. It's been there ever since 2009. Just because they were youthful doesn't mean they weren't moving to the music very well. Their cowboy program is pretty much the best any team has ever skated to that kind of music, and their flamenco was wonderful too, it had a conviction that few teams ever achieve.

The biggest negative about Sui/Han's skating is the scoring system they are constrained by. The performances could be even more musical if they were actually allowed to be. Instead they have to do a bunch of excessive or constraining moves to gain technical points.

 

[Skatesocs]

No, please don't make assumptions about who you think I meant to quote. I always respond to posts that I intend to respond to. That doesn't mean I respond to every post that I might disagree with, or agree with. I was not closely following your conversation in the other thread regarding P/J and S/H, so I can't comment on any references you made or debates you were having with others in that respect.

I wasn't having "a debate" your post was right above mine in the thread here: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2021-worlds-pairs-short-program.88059/page-47#post-2734002

and you said it was "another poster" and I saw you'd liked my post. But okay, maybe I was wrong.

Again Lori Nichol has worked for a long time with S/H, and so it's not just S/H 'reconstituting broken chords,' etc. It is what Lori Nichol sees in S/H and hears in the music, and helps S/H to bring out on the ice. In addition, Shen/Zhao have also worked tirelessly with S/H as their coaches and mentors.

Er? I didn't say it was S/H doing it on their own, without Lori's help. It was my description of their choreography (that Lori made) that THEY delivered - if they couldn't deliver it, then the choreography/interpretation wouldn't come through. THEY had those skills to satisfy the choreography (which I frankly don't see in anyone else) - if they didn't exist, Lori wouldn't even be able to choreograph what she did. Sorry, you misread my response.

No one is denying that S/H have improved either, lol. Otherwise, if we are just going to say Lori Nichol and Shen/Zhao helped them, by that logic, the coaches and choreographers of other skaters have helped them too. Then I can continue along that path of reasoning to say S/H have worked the most on their skating out of anyone else, and therefore are the best. You saying another 50 times that Lori Nichol "helped" them won't change that they delivered the most memorable SP in Pairs for me (and most others, it seems).

If you have even a slight interest (ETA: or ability) in analysing the choreography of your favorite Pairs program and tell me why it's better than Blues for Klook, then do it. Otherwise, it's just pointless to keep being told that S/H "grew" because of "Lori Nichol and S/Z". That's simply what I call a lack of argument.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Their own continued technical mistakes, and their federation having younger and seemingly more promising prospects, is likely what has dropped their confidence

Their technical mistakes in recent seasons likely arise from their lack of confidence and self-doubt, which seemingly began circa the Candyman season. Of course, there could be plenty of other factors involved, which we fans are not privy to.

My feeling is that the judges over-rewarding T/M when they made mistakes clearly did not help them. They already had a lot of problems in their career finding music worthy of their talent. Then there was an avalanche of negativity regarding the poorly put together Candyman, which led to spiraling inconsistencies in following seasons. IMO, Candyman possibly could have worked for a different team with different personalities and better choreo and costumes.

T/M had to contend with other teams, such as Duhamel/Radford, Sav/Mas, and a burgeoning James/Cipres, during a time when Stolbova/Klimov were also rivals, especially at home. The rise of the younger Russian teams is something new, and has happened when T/M have already been at their lowest point of confidence. I think the younger Russian teams appear to look up to T/M, and they may also perhaps know T/M personally and feel sorry for their recent struggles. Even Boikova/Koslovskii didn't seem too upset at T/M winning Russian Nationals.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I wasn't having "a debate" your post was right above mine in the thread here: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/threads/2021-worlds-pairs-short-program.88059/page-47#post-2734002

and you said it was "another poster" and I saw you'd liked my post. But okay, maybe I was wrong.

Okay, mixed signals. That's another thread and a different reference from a little while ago. So perhaps my comments sparked a discussion there, which I wasn't too involved in as it proceeded. I recall liking something you said in that thread, but there's a lot going on with these different conversations in different threads, it's becoming confusing.

As to the rest of your S/H discussion here, I'm happy for you that they are your favorite pairs team apparently. Everyone does not have to feel exactly the same way you do about S/H. We each see what we see in a program, and in particular athletes and what they bring to the ice. There is no point in going on about the differences that we each see. It's not going to change anything. You are apparently passionate about S/H and that's great for you and for whoever else enjoys their skating. They might well win in Beijing. The future remains to be seen.

Of course, choreographers working with different athletes have a lot to do with the outcome of successful programs. The entire process of choreographing programs is interesting, and there's often a lot that goes on collaboratively between veteran skaters and choreographers behind-the-scenes that fans don't know. We sometimes find out more about that process in articles, or via interviews with skaters and choreographers discussing the making of a program.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

It's not only in recent years S/H have shown great artistic ability. It's been there ever since 2009. Just because they were youthful doesn't mean they weren't moving to the music very well. Their cowboy program is pretty much the best any team has ever skated to that kind of music, and their flamenco was wonderful too, it had a conviction that few teams ever achieve.

The biggest negative about Sui/Han's skating is the scoring system they are constrained by. The performances could be even more musical if they were actually allowed to be. Instead they have to do a bunch of excessive or constraining moves to gain technical points.

I don't see this exactly the same way you do, which is fine. To me, S/H don't show 'great artistic ability.' They simply have great precision and impactful command due to growing in confidence and expressive abilities. So yes, they have grown aesthetically as they have learned how to harness a better understanding of interpreting musical nuances and not just exhibiting bravura technical feats to fun music. Part of this is due to maturing as people and as partners, which is evident in what they do on the ice.

I don't see that S/H are necessarily constrained by the scoring system from being even more musical. I think it is their choreographer who has helped them in their unique expression and understanding of the musical nuances.

All the skaters are limited in the freedom of expression and creativity that free programs should and could have.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Mozer and the judges are to blame, not fans who expressed their opinions.

I have since heard that T/M were inundated on Instagram with overly negative and unfair commentary about this program, which I wasn't formerly aware of. That was unfair and uncalled for by fans. All skaters in such instances should make an effort to avoid social media or to make their Instagram private for a period of time. Certainly, athletes can not allow what the public thinks of them to determine the outcome of competitions, much less the forward trajectory of their careers. In fact, no matter one's career or profession, ignoring what others think and developing inner confidence, is the best strategy.

ETA:
I also think it's best to realize we don't exactly know intimate details of skaters' lives, so we aren't in a position to definitively make judgments about everything that might be a contributing factor to T/M's seeming lack of confidence, and competitive inconsistency.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Another poster discussed romantic connection between pairs in this thread, I believe:

2021 Worlds: Pairs Short Program

Totally agree! Here on Goldenskate there are certain skaters who are like a third rail—anything remotely negative said about them will result in electrocution :) Yes, but I think you should say whatever you want. People need to be less sensitive about their favorites. Personally, I love Sui/...

www.goldenskate.com

Oh, maybe this is what you were previously referencing @Skatesocs. I didn't recall the poster's name, or else I would have credited it to you.

 

[Blades of Passion]

All the skaters are limited in the freedom of expression and creativity that free programs should and could have.

But to much different extents. A team like Totmianina/Marinin showed a lack of connection and artistry in both the 6.0 and CoP systems. The system, right now, rewards the people who were always less artistic and more technical oriented. People like Sui/Han who have the capability to do more, are not able to show that complete amount of musical sensitivity and expression, because they are forced to do more spin positions and death spiral rotations and other random turns on the ice. Whereas for other competitors, these technicalities that are forced into programs just masks their own lack of artistry, because it gives them "busy work" to do on the ice that everyone else has to do too.

To me, S/H don't show 'great artistic ability.' They simply have great precision and impactful command due to growing in confidence and expressive abilities. I don't see that S/H are necessarily constrained by the scoring system from being even more musical. I think it is their choreographer who has helped them in their unique expression and understanding of the musical nuances.

Sui and Han were both trained as dancers from a young age in China. Trying to credit Lori Nichol with their artistry, when they already showed it long before working with her, is absurd. Between comments like this and your comments that you didn't even know they did 4Sal, your opinion is quite an ignorant one.

 

[Skatesocs]

Lol. @BlissfulSynergy maybe "watch" and "study" figure skating for another 50 years? Until then, I'll file this under Amber Glenn being just as musical as Karen Chen "in a different way".