Pairs FS Worldwide: The Divine Discipline

[anonymoose_au]

Ashley and Tim's music cut is indeed an enormous mystery.

I don't understand why that bit was cut-out! Has anyone skating to Rach 2 ever done that? I actually feel myself deflating when it gets to the point where it would kick in...and then... nothing.

Why would their choreographer have done that?

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Throw 4S at 2016 4CC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R14G9BZ1lIc (they also do a 4twist during this LP!)

Maybe you'll better understand why other people like Sui/Han's skating if you actually watched more of their programs

Thanks for sharing, as that's what I was asking about. I didn't remember S/H performing a quad throw. I do remember that they are one of the teams who have performed quad twists, which I mentioned earlier. I saw this 4CCs program by S/H at the time, but yeah, it was awhile ago. Have they performed other quad throws since then? I know they performed the quad twist again at 2017 Worlds in a program that resonated with me more, despite Sui's fall on the sbs 3-salchow:

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I also enjoyed S/H's 2019 Worlds fp (Sui didn't falter on the 3-salchow in this fs):

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In the 2016 4CCs program, that was a beautiful quad throw. I think the quad twist was performed better at 2017 Worlds. Again, in the 2016 4CCs performance, I really like the vertical upside down lift into the rotating overhead lift in a split leg position. Unfortunately, Sui has had issues on her sbs 3-salchow, which she continues to have trouble with in recent seasons. In the past, S/H tended to skate everything else so well that the jump error didn't apparently matter too much. I don't think S/H can afford the sbs 3-salchow weakness now against the young Russian teams.

I find Duhamel/Radford's quad throws more memorable, as D/R completed a number of quad throws in competition. In terms of milestones in throw elements, it was two respective U.S. pairs teams who landed in competition the first throw 3-axel (Inoue/Baldwin, 2006 U.S. Nationals; landed again at the 2006 Olympics), and the first throw quad salchow (Vise/ Trent, 2007 TEB).

 

[coldblueeyes]

Talking about quad throws, to me one of the great quad moments is still Kavaguti and Smirnov in SA 2014 landing a triple triple sequence, a double axel and then a quad salchow back to back. They were both over thirty back then.

 

[skylark]

Ashley and Tim's music cut is indeed an enormous mystery.

I don't understand why that bit was cut-out! Has anyone skating to Rach 2 ever done that? I actually feel myself deflating when it gets to the point where it would kick in...and then... nothing.

Why would their choreographer have done that?

I can't imagine. (Camerlango let them down, imho). I have the same reaction as you do. In fact, I'd guess that most fans (and judges!), being so familiar with Rach 2 as a program choice, either consciously or subconsciously are waiting for that grand, dramatic passage, waiting to see how the skaters use it So when we don't get it, we go, huh?

The other side of that is something I remember Charlie White said when commenting on Hawayek/Baker's FD to The Theory of Everything. He wished they'd choose music that would do some of the work for them, music that had a dramatic surge.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I've been checking out TSL recaps. They recently did a 'Hot Takes' wrap-up without any guests (after having separate guest hosts help them discuss each discipline). I'm linking below a specific section of the final wrap-up where after speaking about the old practice of quid pro quo in the judging, they segue into talking about pairs results. Dave carefully discusses Sui/Han with great praise, even though he also feels that perhaps they should have skipped Worlds this year). It's an interesting viewpoint. I doubt that S/H felt it would be a good idea to not show up and challenge the young up-and-coming Russian teams. But I get Dave's argument:

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[gordana]

Also, I did want to emphasize that it was Alexander Stepin, not Zhulin, who choreographed "Bohemian Rhapsody/We Are the Champions."

And here you are a bit wrong. Alexander Stepin was their and B/K everyday choreograher who did ballet classes with both teams. He could make some changes into Zhulin's choreography, but didn't do the choreo on his own. And I heard he a bit changed M/G SP Esmeralda making it so grotesque as it is while original choreo by Bestemianova and Bobrin was more classical.

 

[skylark]

And here you are a bit wrong. Alexander Stepin was their and B/K everyday choreograher who did ballet classes with both teams. He could make some changes into Zhulin's choreography, but didn't do the choreo on his own. And I heard he a bit changed M/G SP Esmeralda making it so grotesque as it is while original choreo by Bestemianova and Bobrin was more classical.

You certainly may be right. I don't know whether I misunderstood Nastya, or what. And I haven't yet had a chance to go back and listen to the press conference to hear what she said again.

 

[ladyjane]

I am so pleased there is a Japanese team again that is really looking good for now and the future. I suspect many of us remember the surprise bronze medal win of Narumi Takahashi and Mervin Tran at Worlds in 2012, and I was really hoping then that Japan would be more competitive in this discipline from then on. But - alas - it was not to be for various reasons. I feel Riku Miura and Ryuichi Kihara are still very much in the building up phase, and also showed they really have perspective at the last WC in Stockholm. I especially liked their short (as did the judges) but their Free was pretty good too. Not yet at the level of the Canadians, Chinese, Russians and Americans but definitely 'on the go' so to speak. Japan of course is an absolute power house in the men and women singles, But the couple disciplines have always been lagging behind. Now there's finally a pair which could mean something. Perhaps not just yet for the medals, but if they continue to grow it could happen in the future. Of course the pairs from the other countries won't be sitting still (I should hope not), but they're bound to be some retirements as well in the coming years. These two might just slip in. They definitely have potential!

 

[Sabine]

I am so pleased there is a Japanese team again that is really looking good for now and the future. I suspect many of us remember the surprise bronze medal win of Narumi Takahashi and Mervin Tran at Worlds in 2012, and I was really hoping then that Japan would be more competitive in this discipline from then on. But - alas - it was not to be for various reasons. I feel Riku Miura and Ryuichi Kihara are still very much in the building up phase, and also showed they really have perspective at the last WC in Stockholm. I especially liked their short (as did the judges) but their Free was pretty good too. Not yet at the level of the Canadians, Chinese, Russians and Americans but definitely 'on the go' so to speak. Japan of course is an absolute power house in the men and women singles, But the couple disciplines have always been lagging behind. Now there's finally a pair which could mean something. Perhaps not just yet for the medals, but if they continue to grow it could happen in the future. Of course the pairs from the other countries won't be sitting still (I should hope not), but they're bound to be some retirements as well in the coming years. These two might just slip in. They definitely have potential!

I really like Kihara, but he is turning 30 next year. So I think there won't be too many years to come for these two. And I guess it will be hard to find Miura a new partner in Japan who can match his abilities.

 

[ladyjane]

I really like Kihara, but he is turning 30 next year. So I think there won't be too many years to come for these two. And I guess it will be hard to find Miura a new partner in Japan who can match his abilities.

True. although we have some shining examples of older pair skaters who had success much later. Both among women and men.

 

[skylark]

And here you are a bit wrong. Alexander Stepin was their and B/K everyday choreograher who did ballet classes with both teams. He could make some changes into Zhulin's choreography, but didn't do the choreo on his own. And I heard he a bit changed M/G SP Esmeralda making it so grotesque as it is while original choreo by Bestemianova and Bobrin was more classical.

I finally got a chance to listen to the press conference, and Nastya's comment wasn't there. I know I heard her give heartfelt credit to Alexander Stepin, but whether it was for general working on choreo, meaning perhaps he helped them as they worked on Zhulin's (FS) program and Bestemianova/Bobrin's (SP) program, or even more general interpretation of choreo, I can't be sure now.

And as @el henry has been known to say in her esteemed lawyerly way, if I can't provide the link and reference ... it didn't happen! To which, I of course reply, in my un-lawyerly way, undocumented doesn't necessarily mean untrue. I can see Nastya and hear her voice as I relate what I believe she said (I have looked but can't find it now). This is frustrating for me, but otherwise quite okay. I'm glad you clarified this.

I'm interested in what you said about their SP Esmerelda, since Queen FS is by far my favorite of the two programs, but Esmerelda is many other people's favorite. From what you say, I'd probably have liked the SP much better as originally planned.

 

[skylark]

True. although we have some shining examples of older pair skaters who had success much later. Both among women and men.

I had no idea Ryuichi Kihara was up to age 30. What has been striking to me from 2019 NHK about their partnership is how he's so much better with Riku Miura than he was when partnered with anyone else. With Takahashi, just no (imo). He was much younger then, and perhaps because of the lack of pairs development up in Japan up till now, he needed all those years to develop. Then lightning struck with Riku!

 

[Clairecz]

I'm just here (as an absolute layman who doesn't care about technique and jumps) to say I love Boikova/Kozlovski. Seeing their FP at EC 2020 in Graz in person will always be one of my most intense figure skating experiences. I also like Mishina/Galliamov too (I first noticed them while watching nationals because of their not that great performances there and I always tend to prefer the underdogs) and was a bit worried that I wouldn't be able to be so happy for them should they overtake B/K at some competitions but I was so happy when they won Worlds!
As the self-designated mother of all Spanish and Italian skaters I'm delighted that Laura Barquero found a new partner, Marco Zandron, and will continue to represent Spain!
I was watching the whole Gran Premio Italia series and discovered Sara Conti / Niccolo Macii there. They have an amazing SP. And they even got the minimal TES for Worlds but as expected, Ghilardi/Ambrosini went as the second pair (and because they skate to Il Volo, I love them too, of course ). And I also noticed Marco Santucci there. So Matteo Guarise is not the only successfull roller skater who switched to pairs It was so interesting to listen to the commentary, mainly provided by Ondra Hotárek (at times frustrating too, he's Czech, I'm Czech and he's speaking Italian! )

 

[Clairecz]

I've seen a lot of discussion about M/G's choreographer/s. This might help maybe:

https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/1381913647492911105?s=20

 

[ladyjane]

As the self-designated mother of all Spanish and Italian skaters I'm delighted that Laura Barquero found a new partner, Marco Zandron, and will continue to represent Spain!
I was watching the whole Gran Premio Italia series and discovered Sara Conti / Niccolo Macii there. They have an amazing SP. And they even got the minimal TES for Worlds but as expected, Ghilardi/Ambrosini went as the second pair (and because they skate to Il Volo, I love them too, of course ). And I also noticed Marco Santucci there. So Matteo Guarise is not the only successfull roller skater who switched to pairs It was so interesting to listen to the commentary, mainly provided by Ondra Hotárek (at times frustrating too, he's Czech, I'm Czech and he's speaking Italian! )

Totally with you, except for the commentary bit, as Italian (and that's difficult enough) is easier for me to follow than Czech.
The Gran Premio was a very welcome addition to the Figure Skating Calender, and I particularly enjoyed the Pairs - even though there weren't that many.

So, when Sara and Niccolo participated in the Challenge Cup I February I knew them, and liked them. And then they had a nasty accident during the SP (Niccolo slipped somehow during the triple twist, and she fell on top of him). They continued skating after a timeout, but then had to withdraw for the Free skate. Which was a pity, though totally understandable. I thought they were very brave to even finish the Short! I truly hope to see them again.

 

[skylark]

I've seen a lot of discussion about M/G's choreographer/s. This might help maybe:

https://twitter.com/ISU_Figure/status/1381913647492911105?s=20

Thank you! That must be the interview where I originally heard Anastasia make that comment.

I am happy to know that I'm not completely crazy yet, and not making up things out of the whole cloth ... at least not without realizing it!

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

I too am surprised to learn that Kihara is 30 years old. But I guess the years pass quickly. It has already been 9 years since Takahashi/Tran's surprise bronze medal for Japan. I get the feeling that the Japanese fed were not eager to give Mervin citizenship. I think Merv was willing, and I believe that Narumi was invested in the partnership. I just got the feeling it wasn't truly Narumi's decision to find a Japanese partner and split with Mervin. Maybe some members of Japanese fed miscalculated how difficult it is to develop a brand new partnership. It took Narumi & Mervin 5 long years to coalesce, marinate, and emerge into the delightful team they became with the invaluable help of their choreographer, Julie Marcotte, and coaches, Marcotte/Gauthier.

Miura/Kihara performed very well at WTT. I do think the judges were somewhat generous with the GOE on some elements for M/K at this event, although for sure M/K are an exciting young team to watch. They still have some quality and consistency improvements to make, but they are an enjoyable team who display a lively connection and engaging enthusiasm when they skate.

 

[Dreamer57]

I too am surprised to learn that Kihara is 30 years old. But I guess the years pass quickly. It has already been 9 years since Takahashi/Tran's surprise bronze medal for Japan. I get the feeling that the Japanese fed were not eager to give Mervin citizenship. I think Merv was willing, and I believe that Narumi was invested in the partnership. I just got the feeling it wasn't truly Narumi's decision to find a Japanese partner and split with Mervin. Maybe some members of Japanese fed miscalculated how difficult it is to develop a brand new partnership. It took Narumi & Mervin 5 long years to coalesce, marinate, and emerge into the delightful team they became with the invaluable help of their choreographer, Julie Marcotte, and coaches, Marcotte/Gauthier.

Miura/Kihara performed very well at WTT. I do think the judges were somewhat generous with the GOE on some elements for M/K at this event, although for sure M/K are an exciting young team to watch. They still have some quality and consistency improvements to make, but they are an enjoyable team who display a lively connection and engaging enthusiasm when they skate.

I don't think this is quite the case. There is a residency and language requirement to become a Japanese citizen - they trained in Canada so it would have been very difficult. Not sure that the Japanese Fed has the power to overrule all this, but I do agree that they might have underestimated how long a new partnership takes to gel and they were not known for massively supporting their pairs and ice dance teams especially back then.

Pretty excited to see M/K make big strides this year, hopefully we get to see them at NHK and all the other competitions next season!

 

[gordana]

I get the feeling that the Japanese fed were not eager to give Mervin citizenship.

There are very tough requirements to get the citizenship. Yuko Kavaguti had to decline her native citizenship and acquire Russian one to compete at the OG, because it was impossible for her previous partner Alexander Markuntsov to become a Japanese citizen. And I read somewhere that for Mervin there was a citizenship option to marry Narumi and decline his Canadian citizenship which was even more tough choice than for Yuko. So far the only foreign skater who got Japanese citizenship is Tim Koleto who is married to Misato Komatsubara.

Maybe some members of Japanese fed miscalculated how difficult it is to develop a brand new partnership. It took Narumi & Mervin 5 long years to coalesce, marinate, and emerge into the delightful team they became with the invaluable help of their choreographer, Julie Marcotte, and coaches, Marcotte/Gauthier.

The JSF urgently needed a team without citizenship issues for a team event in Sochi Olympics 2014, so they even didn't calculate consequences, it didn't matter for them back then. That's why Narumi and Mervin partnership was broken. And haven't team event been added to the Olympics programme, Japan would have never developed pairs and ice-dance disciplines, as well as Korea.

 

[metconahay]

I was SO pleasantly surprised with M/K at both WTT and Worlds. Their presence alone boosts Japan up to being a serious podium contender at the Olympic team event, which is exciting.