Papadakis publishes book; Cizeron challenges claims

[GGFan]

I have never read a figure skating biography, but this thread might push me to do so for the first time. It will all depend on whether there's an English translation and whether the book is well-written.

A cleaned up narrative does not make for a good memoir. Andre Agassi had to admit quite a few embarrassing/shameful things, but I still believe that is the best sports memoir. To the extent that Gabi is able to admit ugly things about herself that will increase her credibility.

I agree that it's unfortunate that the bigger issues (abuse, sexual assault, etc) here are being underplayed in favor of: (1) people who want to focus on Cizeron's reputation when I'm sure he only plays a small part in her larger story and (2) people who are focused on some minor detail about V/M (if you're clutching pearls at wishing one's competitor fell, your self-righteousness must be choking you everyday or you're really good at portraying perfection online).

 

[GGFan]

Writing a separate post about the legal stuff:

1. The whole cease and desist letter is a red herring and a reputation play. I doubt any suit will ever be filed as he has said nothing except "we remember things differently." That's what everyone who is portrayed negatively says. These letters are only as good as the threats and receipts behind them are. If I send you a cease and desist from a bad ass lawyer and in it it says that I have video evidence that what you're saying is a lie and it's hurting my career that's a lot more believable than claiming a random smear campaign. Boo hoo.

2. Which leads me to this point. The entire argument Cizeron is making here is ridiculous because this is a memoir. The very definition of the word is that she's telling us what she remembers--this will not always match up with absolute truth and it never attempts to. If the argument is that Gabby is claiming factual events occurred that can be objectively shown to not have happened that's one thing. If on the other hand Gabby is saying that Cizeron was mean and abusive and he doesn't like it, that's her opinion and he's really not saying anything except I don't appreciate you spilling our behind the scenes interactions this way. To date Cizeron has not pulled out one single receipt to defend himself. He just doesn't like what Gabby is spilling and that it might result in people having a lower opinion of him. Sorry, but that's life and he needs to get over it. People will read Gabby's book and determine how credible she is by taking in the entire context and her actions in the years to follow. He will have no power over that.

 

[TallyT]

people who are focused on some minor detail about V/M (if you're clutching pearls at wishing one's competitor fell, your self-righteousness must be chocking you everyday or you're really good at portraying perfection online).

Me, I suspect that if either V or M read it, their reaction would probably "well, duh....."

Unless they are also the type to clutch pearls.

 

[Joan1940]

by innovative you mean they always had to act like, he was austronaut, she was an alien? she was a snake, he was snake tamer etc.
In their skating I dont see any innovation. No edges, no good choreo. That's my opinion.

Ice dance has come a long way from its original concept of "ballroom" dance on ice back in the 70's. Now it seems to be themes & that's where Chock/Bates to me are innovative.

 

[fsfs1980]

Writing a separate post about the legal stuff:

1. The whole cease and desist letter is a red herring and a reputation play. I doubt any suit will ever be filed as he has said nothing except "we remember things differently." That's what everyone who is portrayed negatively says. These letters are only as good as the threats and receipts behind them are. If I send you a cease and desist from a bad ass lawyer and in it it says that I have video evidence that what you're saying is a lie and it's hurting my career that's a lot more believable than claiming a random smear campaign. Boo hoo.

2. Which leads me to this point. The entire argument Cizeron is making here is ridiculous because this is a memoir. The very definition of the word is that she's telling us what she remembers--this will not always match up with absolute truth and it never attempts to. If the argument is that Gabby is claiming factual events occurred that can be objectively shown to not have happened that's one thing. If on the other hand Gabby is saying that Cizeron was mean and abusive and he doesn't like it, that's her opinion and he's really not saying anything except I don't appreciate you spilling our behind the scenes interactions this way. To date Cizeron has not pulled out one single receipt to defend himself. He just doesn't like what Gabby is spilling and that it might result in people having a lower opinion of him. Sorry, but that's life and he needs to get over it. People will read Gabby's book and determine how credible she is by taking in the entire context and her actions in the years to follow. He will have no power over that.

Well, one new piece of information that has been shared by Papadakis is that the planned publication date decision was made before Cizeron had even announced his plans to partner with Fournier-Beaudry and compete this season.

 

[peepsquick]

fair.. but with the excerpts shared already, do you still intend to read it ?

I have not read the excerpts either because they are out of context and often chosen to start controversy. As for reading the book, I probably will. I have the wish to acknowledge Gabi's story and give her a sign that she is being heard. A testimony such as hers should be read most of all in skating circles because I believe that it is meant to try and bring change.
If we are being honest, the experience of being second grade human beings is also shared daily by many women outside of skating. There is some progress but it is very tricky to change mentalities. It is often in the little things nobody pays attention to. A final frontier of sorts.

 

[jersey1302]

It's a shame the book isn't available in English at this time.

An English publication will be coming out

 

[Diana Delafield]

It's a shame the book isn't available in English at this time.

As someone who has dabbled in freelance editing, I have friends who are freelance book translators. (No publishing house has such specialists on staff.) It's a lengthy process and they're only hired by a publisher after a book has sold well enough in the original language to justify the expense of a professional translator. Otherwise you end up with some form of "Google-translation", ridiculed in reviews.

 

[Mathman]

As someone who has dabbled in freelance editing, I have friends who are freelance book translators.

I also wonder about ghost-writing and "editorial help" with the preparation of manuscripts in these cases.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

The "Chock and Bates are bad skaters" narrative has got to end. Yes there are politics, reputation, and power games involved. There are better skaters out there - Cizeron for one. But these people are not BAD skaters. I'd like to see your average Twitter warrior (the place where I most often see their skating skills ridiculed) go out and try skating. Not turning, not jumping, not spinning, just skating. Try holding an edge and then report back.

If I had a cent for each time I read a "Bock can't skate" tweet... coming from people who have never stepped on the ice and cannot tell one turn from another.

So, apparently, you are addressing posters on Twitter and another site. I haven't seen anyone on GS claiming that Chock/Bates are 'bad skaters.' [ETA: Unfortunately, aside from the comment in this thread you must have been responding to that @Mathman pointed out to me; sorry.] Such a claim made by anyone on a social media site, is a ridiculous, unrealistic, and disingenuous comment. I said in the original post that in my opinion, Chock/Bates 'are not better than everybody else,' but that does NOT mean they are 'bad skaters.' I respect their longevity, their high-level experience, and their many accomplishments. Any further discussion about Chock/Bates, I am going to take to an appropriate thread, as @el henry is correct that this thread is not about Chock/ Bates.

I apologize for mentioning Chock/ Bates without qualifying that I was concerned how overly effusive Papadakis was about C/B's quest for individual Olympic gold, when I was watching NBC's coverage of U.S. Nationals. I wondered then about a conflict of interest if Papadakis was going to be in the booth for NBC's Olympics coverage of ice dance. Possibly, NBC was not aware of the nature and extent of the unfortunate estrangement between Papadakis and Cizeron. It has been discussed by some fs fans based on Papadakis' own statements on social media and in interviews she's given. I had even heard that Papadakis was planning to write a book, but I hadn't heard anymore about it until this recent report that the book is coming out in the lead-up to the Olympics. It's one thing to not be very good at commentating ice dance. It's another thing entirely to harbor publicly disseminated ill-feelings about someone competing in the event you have been employed to commentate. [The entire situation is very sad. I enjoyed the competitive career of Papadakis/Cizeron so much. They seemed to have a unique, creative bond that touched fans and made a significant impact on the discipline.]

I'm sure NBC figured out very quickly and independently this conflict of interest without having seen any discussions on skating forums. It's one thing for regular NBC on-air staff to hype or root for top U.S. skaters ahead of the Olympics, because they are generally respectful and fair to all athletes from other countries. It's also fine for retired athletes to commentate when they have also choreographed programs for various skaters. But when there are deep-seated, unresolved emotional conflicts that have been publicized between a former skater/ commentator and a top competitor, that's concerning.

NBC apparently agrees:

NBC removes Olympics ice dancing analyst for conflict of interest

amp.awfulannouncing.com

 

[pearly]

So, apparently, you are addressing posters on Twitter and another site. I haven't seen anyone on GS claiming that Chock/Bates are 'bad skaters.' [ETA: Unfortunately, aside from the comment in this thread you must have been responding to that @Mathman pointed out to me; sorry.]

I wish NBC would hire Jean-Luc. He is eloquent, he knows the sport, and his commentary is educational and useful. (Actually I wish Eurosport would hire him because that is where I will be watching, but I wish SOMEONE would hire him.)

 

[ajingmarg]

The thing I find odd about this whole thing is that the first I even knew of some of the contents in the book occurred when I saw news reports about Cizeron's reaction to it. It doesn't even seem that the book was being highly publicized, but the coverage of his reaction has been all over the place or did I miss something?

Why shouldnt he react to it and not defend himself?

 

[Diana Delafield]

I also wonder about ghost-writing and "editorial help" with the preparation of manuscripts in these cases.

Also usually done by freelancers. If it says "as told to" with the ghostwriter's name, then the author paid the standard rates. If the ghostwriter's name doesn't appear on the book, he or she was paid a lot extra ! (And it's almost always the author who pays. The ones who aren't willing to, and decline professional help, end up with an inferior product. The publisher only pays if the book was the idea of that publisher who talked the celebrity "author" into the project by promising it would all be done for them, and all they needed to do was put their name to it and agree to multiple interviews and exhausting book tours.)

 

[moonvine]

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/47631097/gabriella-papadakis-says-lost-nbc-olympic-job-book

 

[yfan1]

Thomas Vu and Tony Wheeler, the creators and hosts of The Skating Session are very knowledgeable fans who have also learned how to skate (albeit not competitively).

Source? And what exact level did they learn to skate at, and which discipline?

And why does their knowledge - which you say they derived without any experience in competition - somehow make their opinions more valid than others', for their videos to be posted for the sake of my and others "education"? Can't people be expected to come up with their own reasoning and descriptions of what's been happening, especially when they have about equal backgrounds?

In other words, they are huge figure skating fans with a passion for educating other fans.

Yeah, many are.

I've seen their posts on places like FSU by the way. Calling them "not snarky" - or whatever - is a serious lowering of standards.

 

[Skater Boy]

Business decision, it's the perfect time and I am sure it was planned.OF cour

Of course everyone/party has their ulterior motive or goal. Book publishers want to sell books. The olymics and national skating federations want to push their agendas/events. Gabby is a person with real feelings, real wins and real challenges and hurts. I am not sure what her reasoning is for this book. I read comments on another discussion group she is unwell - now that can be taken several ways. What seems obvious by her comments is that she has gone through a lot and in her interpretation or POV wronged, victimized and n the end hurt. She is entitled to those feelings. I think further complicating matters might be language issues as some of the wording is confusing ie abortion, miscarriage, Eve of world championships but she talks about an incident after the competition etc I am sad Gabby lost the chance to commentate but stepping away from liking Gabby for English viewers she was hard to understand sometimes. I got confused about the number of sexual assaults and who did it but really it doesn't matter. This talented human being was hurt and in her mind she is dealing with it. I don't know if the book is about money? Healing - some people get healing from telling their story. Some people think it might help others. And yes, sometimes it is about revenge even. In the end good or bad attention is being given to skating. I hope Gabby gets the help she needs and deserves.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

... So right now, you interpreted me different than my intention as an example of how different people interpret different situations.

For the most part, peoples memories are unreliable and their feelings are often amplified after an altercation.

Sometimes my mom and I will have the same interaction with a server at a restaurant, then leave and she will say "OMG, he was so rude" but to me I'll be so confused since that is a completely different interpretation then me. It was actually repeated situations like this that led me to realize how wildly different people interpret others behaviour, tone, posture and language.

I would say its even more pronounced when different languages/cultures are in the mix.

Exactly. Not to mention confusion of tone, intention, and multiple confusions, misinterpretations/ miscommunications and differing points of view on social media, especially skating forums.

 

[TallyT]

I read comments on another discussion group she is unwell - now that can be taken several ways.

And we have already been through that piece of historically misogynistic and abusive crap already on this discussion board and this thread, can we now drop it, at least here? If the other discussion boards want to incourage incel speak, let them.

Funny how we never seem to hear these vile slurs pretending to be mental health concern about male autobiographies or public outbursts.

 

[BlissfulSynergy]

Source? And what exact level did they learn to skate at, and which discipline?

And why does their knowledge - which you say they derived without any experience in competition - somehow make their opinions more valid than others', for their videos to be posted for the sake of my and others "education"? Can't people be expected to come up with their own reasoning and descriptions of what's been happening, especially when they have about equal backgrounds?


Yeah, many are.

I've seen their posts on places like FSU by the way. Calling them "not snarky" - or whatever - is a serious lowering of standards.

Look, what I have commented above is my personal view of how I feel about The Skating Session. When Tony and Thomas post their views on a fan forum in conversation with others, that's not the same thing as what they are presenting on their podcast. I have seen some of Tony's posts on FSU. He may be opinionated on forums, but he's fairminded. The same for Thomas. Neither of them are snarky. That is simply not an accurate description of their podcast either. I don't agree with everything they say, but for the most part, I learn from listening to them, and I find them open to having engaging and mutually beneficial conversations with other fans. They have also had skaters and officials thank them for the informative, responsible way they cover the sport on their podcast, (despite the negativity harbored against them by some parties).

BTW, this is figure skating. We all have some differing points of view. That's normal. The thing is, being cognizant of finding a way to be polite and positive in our conversations. The Skating Session engages with fans in a positive, informative way.

 

[Joan1940]

Calling someone mentally unwell because they, at the biggest competition of their life, in a moment of upset after a freak incident screwed them over, wished that their opponents would make a mistake, is ridiculous and speaks more to YOUR lack of mental well-being than Gabi's. I'm sorry, but any competitor who claims they've never once wished their opponent would mess up is lying. As a fan, I've certainly hoped for the rivals of my favs to screw up. I remember watching the 2018 Olympics and chanting fall fall fall, when Alina was skating cause I wanted Zhenya to win so I certainly wouldn't judge a skater for hoping for a mistake from their rival. God forbid an athlete want to win.

Also, I'm not at all surprised to see some people implying she's a liar and trying to dismiss her...in this society, in the eyes of many, if a women isn't a perfect victim, they're not a victim at all. I would suggest some of you check yourselves and your biases.

Finally someone who makes sense. As a fan there are many times when my favorites,whether they be figure skaters,gymnasts, tennis players or even football/baseball teams,when we haven't wished the other persons/teams make a mistake so my favorite wins. That's just human nature.