PC Scores - Are they evenly judged for each skater?

[Mathman]

^ I would compare it more to a dog show. For each breed there are certain standard points that the judges are looking for that mark the "Platonic Ideal" of, say, a wire-hair fox terrier. (My wire-hair could not be shown because he was one centimeter too tall for the standard of the breed, plus his ears didn't flop exactly right -- they had a kind of flutz to them.)

In principle, the judges call upon their experience to judge how closely the dog matches these standards. This is the TES.

Then the dogs are judged on personality, stage presence, the costume of the trainer. etc. This is the PCSs.

The hardest part, I would suppose, comes in choosing best of show. Now you are comparing apples to oranges without a firm guide as to whether this spaniel is more perfectly proportioned for its breed than is that St. Bernard. This is where politics and reputation enter the picture.

 

[Layfan]

Figure Skating Judges, judge and so do Miss Universe Judges judge. If they liked a contestant, and score well, it is pure unadulterated
opinion.

The bottom line is that most of the facets of figure skating can only be judged by opinion. If you believe the judges are qualified to judge with their opinions then there is no argument. I would prefer to listen to prior champions.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea but I doubt it would make things less controversial. I live in Mexico. There are two former Canadian champions here who had a pretty public spat about the outcome of the men's competition in Vancouver.

 

[Nadine]

ROTFLMAO, I know exactly whom you're talking about (wish I was there to see the spat):

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Getting old so I don't remember the near past. I think the Levels came after the CoPs debut. An attempt to give more relevance to the quantifying theory of judging?

 

[janetfan]

^ I would compare it more to a dog show. For each breed there are certain standard points that the judges are looking for that mark the "Platonic Ideal" of, say, a wire-hair fox terrier. (My wire-hair could not be shown because he was one centimeter too tall for the standard of the breed, plus his ears didn't flop exactly right -- they had a kind of flutz to them.)

In principle, the judges call upon their experience to judge how closely the dog matches these standards. This is the TES.

Then the dogs are judged on personality, stage presence, the costume of the trainer. etc. This is the PCSs.

The hardest part, I would suppose, comes in choosing best of show. Now you are comparing apples to oranges without a firm guide as to whether this spaniel is more perfectly proportioned for its breed than is that St. Bernard. This is where politics and reputation enter the picture.

Ha-ha, you are almost right. My mother owned a kennel and produced a few champions. She also put her three children through college with her hobby/business.

Best of breed is every bit as political as best of group and best in show. The bigger the show the more political it becomes. It is excactly like skating whether 6.0 or CoP.

 

[Violet Bliss]

^ I would compare it more to a dog show. For each breed there are certain standard points that the judges are looking for that mark the "Platonic Ideal" of, say, a wire-hair fox terrier. (My wire-hair could not be shown because he was one centimeter too tall for the standard of the breed, plus his ears didn't flop exactly right -- they had a kind of flutz to them.)

In principle, the judges call upon their experience to judge how closely the dog matches these standards. This is the TES.

Then the dogs are judged on personality, stage presence, the costume of the trainer. etc. This is the PCSs.

The hardest part, I would suppose, comes in choosing best of show. Now you are comparing apples to oranges without a firm guide as to whether this spaniel is more perfectly proportioned for its breed than is that St. Bernard. This is where politics and reputation enter the picture.

Very apt and astute analogy. :thumbsup:

The bottom line is that most of the facets of figure skating can only be judged by opinion. If you believe the judges are qualified to judge with their opinions then there is no argument. I would prefer to listen to prior champions

Believing in prior champions means you believe in prior judges who made them champions. Do you mean you prefer prior judges and will not believe in future prior champions crowned by current disrespected judges? Will you ever respect Patrick Chan if he wins championships?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Believing in prior champions means you believe in prior judges who made them champions. Do you mean you prefer prior judges and will not believe in future prior champions crowned by current disrespected judges? Will you ever respect Patrick Chan if he wins championships?

Not really. I think the opinions of former champions or even podium winners, would be more realistic because they spent all those years of training and learning the art of Figure Skating. They know from past experiences what's what in figure skating. Like all sports, there will be bias, but that's a given anyway. It is my opinion that the lovers of figure skating but never competed, and have studied 'how to judge a competition' will do their best, but a former skater has had the experience.

Terry Gannon has learned a lot about Figure Skating and if he were to take the course on 'How to Be a Judge' and passed it, would that be better than having old man Nicks, or Tai and Randy as judges? Thinking about Nicks, I would think all celebrated coaches would probably make the best judges. JMO.

 

[gkelly]

So how do you feel about a judge who was world champion once upon a time but whose skating you never saw or don't remember?

How about a judge who was multiple times Polish or Hungarian champion and competed for years at Europeans and Worlds, maybe an Olympics, but never had the international results to get the attention of the US media, especially if their competition days were in an era when we were lucky for a US network to mention/show all the medalists?

How about a judge whose best result as a skater was a novice or junior sectional championship in the US or Japan or Canada but who never competed internationally?

If they've been judging for 20 years, watching thousands of skaters at all levels, before they get a world judging assignment, would you trust them more than a coach with the same skating credentials who took one course in how to judge?

Do you trust a coach to teach (or judge) triple axels if they never succeeded landing more than a double axel themselves, if that?

 

[Mathman]

I think that judging is a separate skill from performing. Coaching/teaching is yet a third discipline. John Archibald Wheeler was the greatest teacher of physicists of the twentieth century, but not himself a great physicist. (He was the Frank Carroll of physicists. )

In a equestrian event, I believe that a well-trained and experienced human judge has a more discerning eye than a horse, or even than a rider. I do not expect the New York Times writer who criticizes operas for a living to be able to sing.

Where I grew up, in 4H country (for non-Americans and city slickers, 4H is an organization for farm kids who compete for prizes for growing the biggest pumpkin or for raising the fattest hog), the most important prize you could win was in the livestock judging contest. If you could prove that you were a good judge of livestock, then you could get a job as a buyer for a big slaughterhouse.

(OK, that was a tad bit off-topic. )

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think that judging is a separate skill from performing. Coaching/teaching is yet a third discipline.

So you are saying that Terry Gannon could be a judge if he studies how to be one. So couldn't anyone else? The qualifications are not in prior skating skills such as coaching, competing, but just for those who fall in love with Michelle and want to be a judge. Is that all is necessary?

A non skater does not understand the skating skills to judge the elements, imo. Of course he can judge like the judges in a Ms Universe Pagaent. Is that what you mean? Can't we all? Just learn a few rules and opine in the corridor,

Without going into the curriculum of the Judgeship Course, what are the qualifications to take that course?

(I've noticed when a topic get too involved, turning it into a joke is the way to stop discussion. No?)

 

[Mathman]

^ What I think about this subject is this. A good skater may or may not have the talent and temperament to be a good judge. A good skater may or may not have the knack and the patience to be a good coach.

I am pretty sure that close to 100% of all ISU judges have a skating background. I would bet that most of them skated competitively at some level, and have been connected with the sport all their lives.

Their interest in the sport was so great that they decided to become involved at the level of the national federation and to work their way up the coaching ladder, from local events to -- if they are good enough -- events like national championships, and then the ultimate promotion -- to become a judge for the highest level international contests.

Terry Gannon is a broadcaster. He is not a skater, judge or coach. He does the job of announcer well.

I have no reason to expect that Gannon would be a good figure skating coach, or a good figure skating judge, or for that matter a good skater. Any more than I would expect, say, Evan Lysacek to be a good announcer just because he won a gold medal. (Although Tara is doing pretty well for NBC this season. )

Edted to add I did not intend my little foray into the 4H clubs as a joke. I was trying to make the point that their are two separate skills: raising livestock and judging livestock. Just because you are good at one does not mean that you will be good at the other.

 

[Mathman]

Sorry for the double post, but this discussion got me to wondering just what the ISU judges' training consists of. Here is an interesting list of all the recent ISU training seminars and tests for ISU judges and referees and international judges and referees. (If this page does not display, search on “judges” on the ISU main page.)

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db/isu_front/comms.php?q=judge&x=27&y=13

Communication 1661 (November 2010) is about the scheduled seminars for pairs judges.

Communication 1654 (October 2010) announces the examination and trial judging for synchro.

Communication 1654 html (October 2010) is the application form for International judges to take the test for promotion to the status of ISU judge.

Communication 1653 (October 2010) announces the 2011 seminar for ice dance judges.

Also, if you want to check out just who these judges are who put themselves through this arduous series of training sessions, supervised trial judging, and written and practical examinations (judges do not get paid for their service), the list is provided by country in Communication 1635.

The USA currently has 13 qualified ISU judges (one of them is Linda Leaver, Brian Boitano’s coach). These are judges certified to judge ISU championships. USA also has 11 International judges. These are certified to judge lesser ISU events.

Russian has 11 ISU judges and 14 Intenational judges.

I am not sure how many former World and Olympic champions would be willing to go through all this to become a judge. It is a huge commitment of time, for no money.

 

[gkelly]

So you are saying that Terry Gannon could be a judge if he studies how to be one. So couldn't anyone else? The qualifications are not in prior skating skills such as coaching, competing, but just for those who fall in love with Michelle and want to be a judge. Is that all is necessary?

That's enough to get started, but the process of getting to judge at an international level is much more complicated and not everyone who starts can make it that far.

The general rules are in the ISU rulebook: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-202745-219968-166758-0-file,00.pdf; see Rule 425

International judges have to be nominated by their federations to be recognized by the ISU. Different federations will have different requirements for what a judge has to achieved before they nominate them for an international judging appointment, but they're not going to take someone off the street who doesn't already have experience judging in domestic competitions.

The person needs to be ISU eligible (i.e., not having done anything to lose eligibility, or been reinstated if they did), not be over 70, and have a working knowledge of English.

Then they have to pass the ISU judging exam.

A non skater does not understand the skating skills to judge the elements, imo. Of course he can judge like the judges in a Ms Universe Pagaent. Is that what you mean? Can't we all? Just learn a few rules and opine in the corridor,

Without going into the curriculum of the Judgeship Course, what are the qualifications to take that course?

I only know how it works in the US.

http://www.usfigureskating.org/About.asp?id=108
First you have to start trial judging tests at the lower levels (juvenile and below). Then after you get certified to judge those tests, you can start trialing the middle-level tests and then the high-level tests.

There are fast tracks for skaters who reached a high test and competition level themselves. A fan off the street, or skater's parent, learning from scratch, with no experience on the ice themselves, would usually take a couple years to move up each judging level.

Midway through the process of working on the test judging appointments, or afterward, you could also start trial judging competitions. Again, the process is faster if you have a lot of skating experience yourself, and it also helps to be smart and a quick learner.

Again, it would probably take several years to move up each level from regional to sectional to national competition judge.

In the meantime, the judges will have experience judging hundreds or thousands of performances each year at various levels.

Only after a judge has reached the national level and proven to be a good judge at that level, and not older than a ceratin age cutoff, will USFS even consider nominating that person for an international appointment.

Here's an overview of how the process works in Canada:
http://www.skatecanada.ca/en/getting_involved/officiating/how/

In countries with much smaller skating programs, it could take a lot less time to get nominated as an international judge. But there would still be plenty of trial judging and real judging at lower levels before getting anywhere near an international judging appointment.

Looks like federations can apply to host ISU seminars to get their judges up to speed, especially if their own programs don't have enough junior and senior-level skaters to give domestic judges opportunities to judge at that level.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vnavsite/page/directory/0,10853,4844-130127-131435-nav-list,00.html

So if you really love skating and want to volunteer for hours, days, weekends judging preliminary and intermediate skaters in tests and club competitions, by all means sign up as a trial judge. You'll learn a lot about skating skills and rules. Expect it to take years before you judge any juniors or seniors. Don't expect to get to an international level, or even a national level in a large country like US or Canada, especially if you weren't already an accomplished skater yourself.

If you only like watching elite skaters, then just sit back and enjoy the skating.

The USA currently has 13 qualified ISU judges (one of them is Linda Leaver, Brian Boitano’s coach).

I'm pretty sure it's a different woman with the same name.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I beg pardons. I was a bit hasty in my discussion of studying for a judgeship. I do believe one has to be a skater and not just a fan. That doesn't change. But I also believe that would be judges have to pass proficiency tests to qualify for the CoP courses. So there is a rigid background of actual skating by all the present day judges, certainly at the Jr and Sr levels.

I think Coaches and Skaters have that same feeling of love that a fan does. Is Tenley Albright still judging?

 

[sk8rdad]

There is no requirement to have been a skater to become a judge at least not in Canada. The course of study and proof of skill is quite intensive and it can take many years to move up the ranks from evaluating tests at the lowest levels to judging competitions. Judges at the ISU level have seen 1,000's of performances at all levels before they are even considered capable of judging at the highest levels all because they have voluntarily donated their time and energy to a sport they love.

While I don't always agree with them I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job they do.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

There is no requirement to have been a skater to become a judge at least not in Canada. The course of study and proof of skill is quite intensive and it can take many years to move up the ranks from evaluating tests at the lowest levels to judging competitions. Judges at the ISU level have seen 1,000's of performances at all levels before they are even considered capable of judging at the highest levels all because they have voluntarily donated their time and energy to a sport they love.

While I don't always agree with them I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job they do.

I assume the American system is the same. I do think, however, that a judge should have the feel of the elements, e.g. a waltz jump should make them understand what an axel is; similarly a two foot spin shoul give the feel of a one foot spin, unfortunately school figures no longer exist, but the feel for transitions and footwork which would be the most difficult, imo, would be imperative.

I, too, have that respect for non skaters judging competitions but I would not think they should at the Championship level.

 

[Poodlepal]

I'm a teacher, and I think being a judge is similar in a way--only worse, because I can give as many kids A's who deserve them. There can be only one winner in figure skating. However, education is very trendy, and not every kid does as well with every type of assessment. Some kids can't take tests, some can't do projects (which almost always involve some type of art work), some don't speak well and don't do well in skits and presentations. So a child's grades can vary a lot depending on what kind of assessment is the rage that year, or is the teacher's favorite.

It's the same for figure skating, I imagine. If edges and footwork are stressed, someone like Patrick Chan will do well, even if he falls a few times. If "skating cleanly" is in, someone like Sarah Hughes, who rarely fell but had the wrong edge or underrotated will do well. When figures were in, Janet Lynn suffered but someone else whose name I can't recall thrived, iirc (she was before my time, but I read about her).

I'm sure most of the judges are great, and judge extremely well to the criteria they have to judge to. But it seems to change every several years. That is the problem, I think. The judges themselves do a good job for the most part.

 

[pangtongfan]

So skating fairly clean with actual quality and without bad flutzing or URs is impossible?!? I would hate to think the standard of skating is such that a Hughes or Chan with 4 falls should be the winner often under any criteria.

 

[Layfan]

I'm a teacher, and I think being a judge is similar in a way--only worse, because I can give as many kids A's who deserve them. There can be only one winner in figure skating. However, education is very trendy, and not every kid does as well with every type of assessment. Some kids can't take tests, some can't do projects (which almost always involve some type of art work), some don't speak well and don't do well in skits and presentations. So a child's grades can vary a lot depending on what kind of assessment is the rage that year, or is the teacher's favorite.

It's the same for figure skating, I imagine. If edges and footwork are stressed, someone like Patrick Chan will do well, even if he falls a few times. If "skating cleanly" is in, someone like Sarah Hughes, who rarely fell but had the wrong edge or underrotated will do well. When figures were in, Janet Lynn suffered but someone else whose name I can't recall thrived, iirc (she was before my time, but I read about her).

I'm sure most of the judges are great, and judge extremely well to the criteria they have to judge to. But it seems to change every several years. That is the problem, I think. The judges themselves do a good job for the most part.

I don't know why, but I really REALLY hope that being a teacher isn't at all similar to being a figure skating judge. For at the bickering we do around here and the ISU efforts to improve judging - whether you think they are misguided or not - it's obvious that figure skating will always be more subjective than most every sport. In great big scheme of things, who cares? It's just figure skating. But teaching - it's bit more consequential.

 

[CdnSkateWatcher]

There is no requirement to have been a skater to become a judge at least not in Canada. The course of study and proof of skill is quite intensive and it can take many years to move up the ranks from evaluating tests at the lowest levels to judging competitions. Judges at the ISU level have seen 1,000's of performances at all levels before they are even considered capable of judging at the highest levels all because they have voluntarily donated their time and energy to a sport they love.

While I don't always agree with them I have a tremendous amount of respect for the job they do.

Actually, there are requirements for a minimum skating background to become a judge in Canada. My daughter is a judge and an evaluator ... She had to complete an initial clinic, then supervised evaluations. To move up the ladder, she had/has to complete further advanced clinics, and further supervised evaluations. It's not a quick process nor is it casually administered even at the entry levels; we have been very impressed at the rigour of the process and the hours it has taken to become even an entry-level judge and evaluator. The skating requirements are not incredibly high, however, they are there. Below are the requirements to enroll in the entry-level Judge and Evaluator clinics:

"The role of the Evaluator/Judge holds many exciting prospects for those willing to volunteer their time for the sport of figure skating. An Evaluator/Judge is at least 16 years old and must have a personal skating background that includes the successful completion of at least any two of the Junior Bronze Freeskate, Skating Skills, Dance OR any one of the Senior Bronze Freeskate, Skating Skills, Dance or the Juvenile Competitive Test or any one higher level test." (From Skate Canada)