People trying to oppose Tanith Belbin's U.S. citizenship

[euterpe]

I completely understand where the Mitchells are coming from. There is so much of politics involved in figure skating, we would like to think it's all about who is the best being able to go to the Olympics but there is so much more involved than that. That is naive and simplistic. It is not about that at all. It is about who was able to get lessons from the coaches with the political power to push their skaters forward. It is about skaters whose families are willing to support them at whatever the cost including moving across the country, etc. It is about money and power. Please tell me how many African American kids from the inner city ever even think of becoming skaters. In their culture that is not one of the sports they follow too much. But many of them may have the ability to become the greatest skaters of all if they were pushed in that direction as upper/middle class white kids are. Or they may want to but not have the support financially or otherwise from their families and that goes for white or Asian or whatever kids as well. The Mitchells allegedly did what they felt was necessary for their child to go to the Olympics; the same as the Belbins and the Agostos are doing. I see nothing wrong with that, what is ok for one should be ok for the other. Personally I hope Tanith and Ben do not get the special approval/treatment. I hope Tanith is not granted special citizenship in time for the Olys. Everything is not about who can get a friggin medal for their country, there should be much more to it than that.

TANITH IS NOT GETTING SPECIAL TREATMENT.
Persons of extraordinary ability who applied for citizenship AFTER she did are now citizens because of a law passed after 9/11. Unfortunately, the law was not written to be retroactive and many persons---not just Tanith and Max---were left out in the cold while others got their citizenship. The current legislation is to correct an inequity and is not "special treatment". Tanith should have received her citizenship two years ago.

There wouldn't BE a third spot for G-R/M to strive for if it weren't for Tanith and Ben, who won a silver medal for the US at Worlds last year. The Mitchells want to punish Tanith and Ben just to satisfy their own selfish wishes for their son and his partner, who unfortunately do not have the skating skills to qualify for an Olympic berth.

Maybe you don't want Tanith and Ben to go to the Olympics, but just as strongly I do not want Galler-Rabinowitz/Mitchell to go because THEY HAVEN'T EARNED IT. They are not good enough to go, and should Tanith's citizenship not go through, I sincerely hope that results at Nationals in January will determine that these two will sit home and watch on TV the properly qualified ice dance teams perform at the Olympics.

 

[euterpe]

I believe the career of this team is over anyway(and you know who I am referring to, not Belbin/Agosto that is for sure). They have already been passed by teams younger and the same age as them. I doubt you will ever seen them on a U.S World team no matter who does or doesnt have citizenship.

Thank you. I believe this to be true as well, and all the snarky letters from Mom and Dad are not going to make this pair better skaters. Just for the record, they won the bronze medal at Nationals in 2004 because Lang/Tchernyshev withdrew. There were only two spots on the World team that year, so they went to 4CC where they finished 8th. In the fall of 2004, they finished 8th and 9th at SA and SC. Their highest finish at JUNIOR Worlds was 4th.

They didn't compete last year because of David's shoulder injury while others were succeeding in upping their skills.

Here are some TOTAL scores for the various Ice Dance teams who will be vying for those Olympic spots. Teams shown in Italics are not currently Olympic eligible:

Belbin/Agosto, Skate America: 190.45
Belbin/Agosto, Nebelhorn: 185.93
Silverstein/O'Meara, Pacific Sectionals: 167.40
Wester/Barantsev, MW Sectionals: 167.23
Gregory/Petukhov, Skate Canada, 164.12
Navarro/Bommentre, Eastern Sectionals: 160.79
Gregory/Petukhov, Cup of Russia, 159.83
Matthews/Zavozin, Cup of China: 157.72
Silverstein/O'Meara, Skate America: 155.51
Galler-Rabinowitz/Mitchell, Nebelhorn, 155.06
Matthews/Zavozin, TEB: 154.18
Mallory/Holdburg, Golden Spin: 152.67
Mallory/Holdburg, Pacific Sectionals: 150.75
Stiegler/Magerovskiy, Nebelhorn: 150.04
Navarro/Bommentre, Karl Schafer: 146.06
Galler-Rabinowitz/Mitchell, GP,143.32
Stiegler/Magerovskiy, Skate America: 142.94

 

[Linny]

Neat compilation

Neato compiliation of scores. Thank you enterpe!
Linny

 

[swannanoa54]

TANITH IS NOT GETTING SPECIAL TREATMENT.
Persons of extraordinary ability who applied for citizenship AFTER she did are now citizens because of a law passed after 9/11. Unfortunately, the law was not written to be retroactive and many persons---not just Tanith and Max---were left out in the cold while others got their citizenship. The current legislation is to correct an inequity and is not "special treatment". Tanith should have received her citizenship two years ago.

There wouldn't BE a third spot for G-R/M to strive for if it weren't for Tanith and Ben, who won a silver medal for the US at Worlds last year. The Mitchells want to punish Tanith and Ben just to satisfy their own selfish wishes for their son and his partner, who unfortunately do not have the skating skills to qualify for an Olympic berth.

Maybe you don't want Tanith and Ben to go to the Olympics, but just as strongly I do not want Galler-Rabinowitz/Mitchell to go because THEY HAVEN'T EARNED IT. They are not good enough to go, and should Tanith's citizenship not go through, I sincerely hope that results at Nationals in January will determine that these two will sit home and watch on TV the properly qualified ice dance teams perform at the Olympics.

And maybe all of this wouldn't be such a focus on Tanith if "some" people hadn't gone to internet boards looking for support for this bill that has nothing to do SPECIFICALLY with Tanith and/or Max, but with ALL of those who got shafted. And maybe if the media hadn't played up the "Tanith can get her citizenship" angle based on those "some" people who tried to help them by using this legislation and giving them hope, then the Mitchells wouldn't have felt like this was a "special" bill just for Tanith. Or maybe they do know what the bill says in its entirety and just choose to write their senator about it anyway. That's their right as citizens.

And maybe we could also think how we would feel as a competitive team who probably knows they are "riding on the backs" of B/A that the entire figure skating fanworld holds us in contempt and scorn. Gee, that's GOT to be a great feeling. Not!

 

[R.D.]

This is rather blunt on my part, but:

Never mind both parties. Dock them both. There is a rule out there, and as far as I'm concerned the parties involved should just abide by it. This is one reason why I don't support the rush for Belbin's citizenship. Never mind the people proclaiming that she's not "getting special treatment". These people clearly have an agenda, and that's to get Tanith and Ben at the Olys to represent the U.S. What about the other people who would supposedly "benefit" from that bill? Nobody cares. If Tanith DID have citizenship, would these same people still lobby for this bill to be passed? Didn't think so.

 

[Kasey]

Jill may I ask you this without you getting insulted? Do you actually know any inner city kids? Have you ever BEEN to the inner city? Because I find your statement preposterous that if inner city kids want to do it they will find a way.

I've lived in a tenement in Newark New Jersey. Your point is? That no kid from the inner city CAN succeed? Some motivational speaker you must be. You say dreams die there, dreams never get started. Sure, SOME. Other dreams become fulfilled, with a lot of hard work and perseverence. Inner city can build character just as much as it can destroy it. And trust me, the people who come out of there WITH character aren't looking for excuses to be a loser, criminal or victim the rest of their lives.

Well all I can say about the price paid to buy the World title for Bourne and K is that it is true and I know personally about it. However I cannot of course reveal my sources online or they will never speak to me again! There is such a small circle of people who actually knew about it they would not have a hard time figuring out who leaked it. .

Well how freaking convenient for you..."I know this, but I can't speak my source" blah blah blah. Well, perhaps if you know something that you can't in any way confirm, you should keep your mouth shut. There are people here who are smarter and less naive than you give them credit for.

 

[Jill]

Sorry, Penny, but you or your rants don't offend me any more than my opinion of you and your tired, class envy socialist tirades offends you.

 

[Spirit]

Never mind the people proclaiming that she's not "getting special treatment". These people clearly have an agenda, and that's to get Tanith and Ben at the Olys to represent the U.S.

Very true, and I'll concede that. However, why is that wrong? Having an agenda isn't necessarily a bad thing, although I realize that the phrase is usually used with a negative connotation.

And to say that people would care less about an issue if <insert situation here> weren't the case is kind of irrelevant, isn't it? That's how people end up caring about just about anything in life -- it affects something important to them.

You say that both parties should just abide by the rule. But if the rule has a flaw (which it does), isn't it a good thing to change it?

Tanith & Ben have put in the years, the mileage, and earned the medals for USA so far. What's wrong with going to bat for a couple of people who have done what they've done?

I frankly don't care what country B&A represent. I would like to see them at the Olympics simply because they're one of the best teams in the world, and the Olympics would be a poorer place without them. Plus, it makes me sad to think of a potential Olympian's dream ruined by bureaucracy and politics.

Not sure if that last paragraph had anything to do with what you're talking about, but there you go.

 

[*~RussianBleux~*]

Believe it or not that is how most all of the dancers make it to the top, exactly BY pulling the outside strings and politicking. Mostly it''s done by their coaches with the judges but parents get involved as well! Don't any of you fans know this or do you really think that the best skater wins in ice dance? OK, do any of you know that $90,000 was paid for Bourne and Kraatz to win the World title that year? Well that is exactly what happened and that is just one instance of the corruption that is in the skating world, HAS BEEN in the skating world for as long as I remember, and I have been involved in skating since the early '90s..... I could tell you so many more incidences of corrupt goings on but what I have found is that many skating fans don't want to believe the truth when it is told to them!

I never said that I didn't realize that this type of corruption was going on in the skating world. Yes, I'm very well aware that these conspiracies do occur, and NOT just in skating either. Maybe I didn't realize it to the extent to which you claim because you seem to have your "sources", but it doesn't take common sense to figure these things out. The scandals that are uncovered after major competitions(SLC pairs, Nagano ice dancing etc..)are reflections of the fact that corruption definitely does occur in this sport. Also, I would hope that people don't believe that the only scandals that occur in figure skating are those that are made public by the media after an event. There are many MANY more that I'm sure we will never know about.

What I meant was that I do realize these scandals are occuring, but that I often wonder how people live with it. I consider myself an honest person, I could never do something so dishonest as to create a scandal that may ruin the chances of a fellow team that deserves that chance more than anything. However I realize that at least some of the time, the competitors actually have no idea this is occuring. It hasn't been proven that G-R/M themselves knew that the Mitchell's were planning on writing this letter. And I definitely don't think that B/S had ANY idea whatsoever in SLC that they had the upper hand with a few of the judges because of an agreement. If I were an athlete representing my country in a world event and I found out that my federation had a pull with the judges/officials because of a scandal they were creating to make sure that I won, I wouldn't be happy at all and there is a good chance that I would opt not to compete in the event. I realize that there is no way that I can know for sure what I would do in that situation because I'm not a world class athlete, but I'd like to think that I would do the right thing. I'm not the type that would cheat, buy, or whine my way to the top and I was just making a statement in my post that I don't understand how anyone could be that way and still feel like they deserve their win. But, yes I DO realize that it occurs.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Can anyone explain what is meant by extraordinary ability?

It reeks with payola, imo, but hey, you know me when it comes to the establishment.

Joe

 

[Ptichka]

Just a friendly reminder to keep things civil, please
(Some posts are getting rather offensive...)

 

[R.D.]

Very true, and I'll concede that. However, why is that wrong? Having an agenda isn't necessarily a bad thing, although I realize that the phrase is usually used with a negative connotation.

It's not necessarily WRONG per se. This is typical everyday politics, and it doesn't surprise me the least to see this happening. Many people in politics play dirty, anyway (not saying the people lobbying for Tanith's citizenship are doing this, but you get the point).

And to say that people would care less about an issue if <insert situation here> weren't the case is kind of irrelevant, isn't it? That's how people end up caring about just about anything in life -- it affects something important to them.

True- people only care about things that will benefit them in some way. You could say we are all "selfish" by nature (and I don't mean that in a negative way). Even helping out homeless people is a "self-serving" thing to do if you look at it this way. You may very well care about the people, but you really do it to feel good about yourself, don't you? To feel that you did YOUR part to help out. If you really dig deep down and think about it, I THINK you will find this to be ultimately true. Once again, not a bash- not a negative connotation. Just the nature of human life.

You say that both parties should just abide by the rule. But if the rule has a flaw (which it does), isn't it a good thing to change it?

I have no problem with OTHER people thinking that a rule is flawed, and I have no problem with them trying to fix it. But if I don't agree with something, why should I go along with the crowd? To bring relevance to my earlier statement, what's in all this for me? (Once again, no intention of negativity here.)

Tanith & Ben have put in the years, the mileage, and earned the medals for USA so far. What's wrong with going to bat for a couple of people who have done what they've done?

Nothing at all. The lobbyists can go at it all they want. If they get their way, fine, whatever. If they don't, well, I won't lose any sleep over it. Frankly, it would be a HUGE gift to B and A if the citizens win out.

I frankly don't care what country B&A represent. I would like to see them at the Olympics simply because they're one of the best teams in the world, and the Olympics would be a poorer place without them. Plus, it makes me sad to think of a potential Olympian's dream ruined by bureaucracy and politics.

Not sure if that last paragraph had anything to do with what you're talking about, but there you go.

It would be nice, yes, but the rule says they shouldn't be there, and all of us have to live with that. Tough. That's the way it goes. IMO, of course. Once again, I have no problem with people lobbying to change the rules, because not all rules are fair. IMO, this one is, though. Therefore, I don't wish to be a part of all this.

 

[Ptichka]

Can anyone explain what is meant by extraordinary ability?

It reeks with payola, imo, but hey, you know me when it comes to the establishment.

A) Aliens with Extraordinary Abilities Defined:
Persons of extraordinary ability are those who can show extraordinary ability in the sciences, arts, education, business, or athletics. Applicants in this category must have extensive documentation showing sustained national or international acclaim and recognition in the field of expertise. Applicants do not need to have a specific job offer as long as they have evidence that they are entering the U.S. to continue work in the field in which they have extraordinary ability. Such applicants do not need an employer to submit a petition to USCIS on their behalf since they are permitted to "self-petition". Labor Certification is not necessary.

This category is for "that small percentage who have risen to the very top of their field of endeavor." Examples of a major internationally recognized award is the Nobel Prize. Other awards may also qualify if the award is in the same class as a Nobel Prize.

Since few workers receive this type of award, USCIS will accept the alternative evidence outlined below as long as at least three are satisfied. Other comparable evidence may be submitted if the following criteria do not apply:

* Receipt of a lesser nationally or internationally recognized prize or award for excellence;
* Membership in associations in the field that demands outstanding achievement of their members;
* Published material about the alien;
* Evidence that the alien is a judge of the works of others in the field;
* Evidence of the alien’s original contribution of major significance to the field;
* Authorship of scholarly articles;
* Display of the alien’s work at artistic exhibitions or showcases;
* Evidence the alien has performed in a leading or critical role for organizations that have a distinguished reputation;
* Evidence that the alien commands a high renumeration in relation to others in the field; or
* Evidence of commercial success in the performing arts.


Since indeed this status is rather rare, the more common one that is usually referred to as "extraordinary abilities" is "Outstanding Professors and Researchers".

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Just a friendly reminder to keep things civil, please
(Some posts are getting rather offensive...)

I noticed and we will take action if it continues.

And thanks for your above post, Ptichka.

Joe

 

[chuckm]

It's pretty obvious that Tanith and Maxim Zavozin are both "Persons of Extraordinary Ability" in sports.

What is interesting to me about this case is that the Mitchells had to have known that there was a group trying to help Belbin get her citizenship by drafting and getting passed legislation making the law that was passed after 9/11 retroactive to "persons of Extraordinary Ability" who had applied for citizenship before 9/11.

This information has been all over the internet this past summer. But what the Mitchells obviously just found out was that the legislation would expedite citizenship for Maxim Zavozin, too. And as far as I am concerned, THAT was the trigger that caused these parents to start a letter-writing campaign. They didn't begrudge citizenship to Belbin, but Zavozin was a direct competitor for the #3 spot on the Olympic team, and as the reigning Junior World and Junior Grand Prix champions, Matthews/Zavozin stood an excellent chance of getting that third spot.

Common sense and reasoning have no part in this mess. Galler-Rabinowitz/Mitchell are retiring after this season, and his parents feel because of that they are entitled to a spot on the Olympic team. They know perfectly well that the proposed legislation is not extending special privileges to anyone, but they don't want Zavozin getting the spot they want for their son, and if that means Belbin gets blocked, too, well that's too bad.

It just seems very sad to me that it has to be plain to G-R/M that Mitchell's parents think so little of their skating ability that they can't get a spot on the team based on their own talent and hard work, but can only get it by disqualifying the people who earned those spots for the US.

 

[nicole_l]

Thanks euterpe! I think that we should be aware that domestic competitions will probably have higher scores than international competitions. I expect G/P to win the silver medal in St. Louis, but the scores so far don't indicate that. Or maybe I'm just relying on politics and the wait your turn era of ice dance.

 

[Emilieanne]

No matter who wrote that letter...let alone if it was ,in fact, received by Senator Clinton, it certainly did a lot to hurt G-R/M simply because it became public. The writer(s) should have considered that fact that such ugly things in this day and age can and do so easily become public, not to mention their unpleasant consequences. With success comes responsibilities...and that seems to be something that is all to conveniently disdained. Some of you on this board may think this notion is old-fashioned, but so be it. I am all too aware of a lot of the sleazy things that go on in the sport and many are quite atrocious, yet despite such ugly goings-on, many people in the sport still manage to maintain their dignity (thank God). Think about it.

 

[euterpe]

Any time a person writes a letter to a public figure, especially a politician, there is the danger that the letter's contents will become public. I am sure the writer of this letter didn't know that, and that makes the action even more sneaky and underhanded. The silence from the Mitchells and from the team itself speaks volumes.

 

[Spirit]

Common sense and reasoning have no part in this mess.

Do they ever?

 

[Frau Muller]

The silence from the Mitchells and from the team itself speaks volumes.

Yup - it's called "LIFE's MOST EMBARRASSING MOMENTS"! As in being caught red-handed doing nasty-nasty stuff. How much you wanna bet that the team will withdraw from Nationals, out of sheer shame...and, if they don't, they have GALL (as in GALLer...get it?).

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