Phil Hersh Previews Worlds Men

[el henry]

I agree he is improving. He very clearly loves skating and his joy is infections. He clearly is trying to improve and put all of himself in his programs. I think he will be great with the right choreography. His SP is better then his free I think. I think he can get the crowd in Boston behind him and he will give it right back with his performance.

I think he needs a program where he can play with the audience a bit. So I hope next season he gets stuff he can get throw himself into. I also hope they get creative with transitions. If he can land his 4Z as easily as he can I can't help but think he could land some really interesting variations in terms of entrances and air positions. Heck he might be able to do a 3Z with his arms out!

I've said a few times, Boyang's programs:no: but as time goes on, I am more and more impressed by his performance chops. Or at least his desire to perform, which counts for a lot.

So, can you imagine Boyang with Rohene? Doing some of those entrances, transitions and steps in the Great Gatsby? Put all of his energy there, and skate an actual program, with just a few quads, instead of an all out jump fest?

*That* I would pay to watch!

 

[MaxSwagg]

Prove what?

Exactly.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I've said a few times, Boyang's programs:no: but as time goes on, I am more and more impressed by his performance chops. Or at least his desire to perform, which counts for a lot.

So, can you imagine Boyang with Rohene? Doing some of those entrances, transitions and steps in the Great Gatsby? Put all of his energy there, and skate an actual program, with just a few quads, instead of an all out jump fest?

*That* I would pay to watch!

Ok I admit it... I was thinking of Rohene during that post.

I was thinking of suggesting he try the front leg cross jump of Rohene's

https://www.instagram.com/p/BCjniP_h7ke/

Because i bet Boyang could learn stuff like that without... well injury let's say at the rate this season is going.

Also he can move, so I agree he could use some Rohene dance moves in his programs. He has a good range of motions/flexibility, for lack of a better way to put it, he can move his hips to the music. I think he could do alot more than he is being asked.

 

[el henry]

Exactly.

:scratch:

And this proves?

Boyang has been given almost nothing to do in his programs but jump, certainly nothing that I care to see. I wish someone out there would help him with what I think is his desire to be the total package, but not yet. So Tavi's point is well taken.

I can say, however, at this point in my life, life's too short to watch skating I don't like. I'll wait until he improves (and I could give a rats patootie if Boyang does five quad lutzes and wins the next three Worlds, that's *not* improvement). I have every confidence that with the right coaching and choreo he could. We shall see.

 

[Tavi...]

Exactly.

Your opinions aren't facts, you know, and they're worth no more than mine or anyone else's.

 

[seabm7]

And where is Machida now? He was not at 2015 Worlds and I don´t remember seeing his name among 2016 Worlds competitors and not even among substitute skaters.

His retirement was quite a shock, since he announced it at the conclusion of the 2015 Japanese National Championships. The federation selected him for the 2015 Worlds, but he declined it by retiring. During the 2014-15 season, he was frustrated because it became quite difficult for him to prepare for the graduate school while he had to train at the highest level. He wanted to skip GPF, but the Japanese federation could not help him in this regard. At the end, he selected the long term career (aka graduate school) over his skating career.

It's too bad. For example, Denis Ten is doing his degree while he's skating. This is one advantage when you are from a smaller federation.

 

[MaxSwagg]

Your opinions aren't facts, you know, and they're worth no more than mine or anyone else's.

Increase of 4 points. That's negligible. Even though his PCS is too high, they're still relatively low comparatively to the top. Your hypothesis holds little merit. It's worth nothing.

 

[Mrs. P]

Boyang Jin is improving by leaps and bounds, IMHO. I expect him to get a personal best in PCS in Boston.

I agree, in general. I think the PCS improvement in the SP is justified. He sells that program along with the awesome 4Z-3T. But the PCS increase in his FS which seems to be a bit of a jumping clinic is a bit high, though I do see some improvement there.

 

[Tavi...]

Increase of 4 points. That's negligible. Even though his PCS is too high, they're still relatively low comparatively to the top. Your hypothesis holds little merit. It's worth nothing.

Gosh well thanks for letting me know how dumb and worthless my thoughts are, darling, but if my investments earned 11% in four months, I'd personally think that was a pretty good ROI, not negligible. Just my opinion of course. Speaking of which, did you notice that you've managed to present four unsupported opinions as facts in this post alone?

 

[OS]

Lol are all Jason fans crying of boyang' measly 4 points pcs climb but had no problem with Jason's double digits climb in his newbie years even surpass level of Hanyu and Patrick... hilarious.

 

[4everchan]

boyang's PCS are almost as high as late 2000s world champions PCS ... and to me... that is ridiculous... the kid has a great future... but come on... his FP is like a baton exercise.... there seems to be more arm movement than skating (aside from the jumps)

 

[Mrs. P]

FYI:
First international comp to first ISU Championship/Olympics.

Boyang (2015 COC SP): 36.29
Jason (2013 Nebelhorn SP): 36.03

Boyang (COC FS): 72.58
Jason (Nebelhorn FS): 75.22

Boyang (4CC SP): 40.04
Jason (Olympics SP): 40.61

Boyang (4CC FS): 80.72
Jason (Olympics FS): 84.28

 

[HanDomi]

boyang's PCS are almost as high as late 2000s world champions PCS ... and to me... that is ridiculous... the kid has a great future... but come on... his FP is like a baton exercise.... there seems to be more arm movement than skating (aside from the jumps)

agree

 

[OS]

FYI:
First international comp to first ISU Championship/Olympics.

Boyang (2015 COC SP): 36.29
Jason (2013 Nebelhorn SP): 36.03

Boyang (COC FS): 72.58
Jason (Nebelhorn FS): 75.22

Boyang (4CC SP): 40.04
Jason (Olympics SP): 40.61

Boyang (4CC FS): 80.72
Jason (Olympics FS): 84.28

Haha, you keep bringing up 2013, when I have always considered his 2014 / 2015 as his proper sr debuts because it was the first years his score would have been obviously geared up to his first WC that Boyang is gearing up to now. They did it at expenses of some of their great men like Jeremy, Adam, Max, Josh etc...

His US Nationals PCS, for example, were particular 'outstanding'!!! No lesser artificial and inflated than Medvedeva
..oh you forgot the + 41 PCS SP, +93 PCS FS by the mighty USFSA huge at the time.

You also ignored the obvious PCS inflation this year in particularly among the 300+ club, and how it bring everyone along for the ride, which current Jason, unfortunately, did not benefit, but surely would have if he had participated. Everything is on relative terms anyway, Today's 36 ain't worth crap compare to a few years ago, especially if the leaders are getting +49, +47 in short, and practically +99, +97 PCS in LP etc... which they were not near back in 2014

 

[Li'Kitsu]

Haha, you keep bringing up 2013, when I have always considered his 2014 / 2015 as his proper sr debuts because it was the first years his score would have been obviously geared up to his first WC that Boyang is gearing up to now.

Wow, if that isn't cheery picking and bending the facts to fit your own opinion than I don't know what is.

Jason's first senior season was the season he first appeared in senior events in - 2013/14. And it was very much 'a proper senior debut', he even already got a medal at a GP. No amount of 'consideration' on your part is going to change that fact.

 

[OS]

Wow, if that isn't cheery picking and bending the facts to fit your own opinion than I don't know what is.

Jason's first senior season was the season he first appeared in senior events in - 2013/14. And it was very much 'a proper senior debut', he even already got a medal at a GP. No amount of 'consideration' on your part is going to change that fact.

Not really, I have always stated the problems I had has always been with 2014/2015 when Mr. Brown's home pCS has artificially inflated to neverland. you can nick pick my wording / year I am refering, still nothing can take away from the fact he is artificially inflated to neverland as US's #1 at the expense of other US men who are likely to achieve higher marks internationally. USFSA completely shot themselves in the foot with this silly strategy, and paying the price with the stagnant/missed momentum.

Gee.. guess what, it is not unlike how JSF inflated Hanyu vs Dai at Japan nationals around the same time. These sort of scores has very little to do with the skaters or skating themselves but everything to do with federation politics, artificially inflate and build up their next big star at the expense of their older skater's years of hard work and dedication.

Mean while bring Boyang Jin to the equasion, i have not seen anything remotely like that with him, and his much complained PCS. Let's not even pretend why people feel threatend by this incredible talent, they are worried the type of skaters like Jason who compete on PCS are no longer competitive with the way the sport is going, spear headeding by youngster quadmeisters like him.

 

[Tavi...]

Lol are all Jason fans crying of boyang' measly 4 points pcs climb but had no problem with Jason's double digits climb in his newbie years even surpass level of Hanyu and Patrick... hilarious.

OS, I think you need to get over the fact that Jason got a lot of attention in 2014 while you think poor poor Jeremy has never been appreciated enough by international judges as much he should have been. Not Jason's fault and it's a bit tiresome at this point.

As to Jason's ostensibly meteoric PCS climb in the 2.5+ years he's been a senior, well, why don't you look at how long it took him to get 40+ PCS from international judges in the SP after he got out of junior versus how long it took Boyang Jin. Or how long it took his PCS to rise 8 points in the FS. Oh wait, you're probably whining about Jason's scores at Nationals, aren't you? Funny how you get so up in arms about Jason's national and international PCS but dont seem to have a problem with Adam's this year or last. Or Josh's last year. Or Boyang's this year, which even you admitted was inflated at COC. Or even Max's this past year. Like Phil Hersh, I guess you think there are some rules for Jason, and other rules for everyone else.

 

[Jaana]

I think for me, the conversation point is whether the international judges is putting MORE WEIGHT in having quads OVER having artistry or a high-execution of content. Even Boyang Jin, while he has low PCS scores, they have grown over the course of the season as he keeps hitting those quads.

It seems to me that with good placements in competitions = reputation the PCS scores of a skater start to rise higher, kind of slowly.

This season has made me realize that an awful lot can happen in two years. Two years ago, Hanyu was still including a planned fall on the 4S in his LP. Now he's a quad champ, king of not only the 4T and 4S but well on his way to mastering the 4lo and maybe even the 4z. Of course Jason could have two quads in two years - or he could have none, I don't know. But it's hardly impossible. I do think he'll have a fairly solid 4T by the Olympics (barring further injury) - it seemed to me like he was progressing pretty well on that jump this season.

Although Hanyu and Brown are of the same age, their achievements and jumping history cannot be compared, IMO. It is years ago that Hanyu already had a quad and Brown is not exactly consistent even with his triple axel. Of course it may be possible that he has one quad and consistent triple axels in 2018. But still he will be behind a lot of skaters technically. I see it as more likely that from them e.g. Boyang will keep getting better and better in PSC and will be getting better programs.

 

[Mrs. P]

Haha, you keep bringing up 2013, when I have always considered his 2014 / 2015 as his proper sr debuts because it was the first years his score would have been obviously geared up to his first WC that Boyang is gearing up to now. They did it at expenses of some of their great men like Jeremy, Adam, Max, Josh etc...

His US Nationals PCS, for example, were particular 'outstanding'!!! No lesser artificial and inflated than Medvedeva
..oh you forgot the + 41 PCS SP, +93 PCS FS by the mighty USFSA huge at the time.

You also ignored the obvious PCS inflation this year in particularly among the 300+ club, and how it bring everyone along for the ride, which current Jason, unfortunately, did not benefit, but surely would have if he had participated. Everything is on relative terms anyway, Today's 36 ain't worth crap compare to a few years ago, especially if the leaders are getting +49, +47 in short, and practically +99, +97 PCS in LP etc... which they were not near back in 2014

Eh, I was just posting numbers. 2013-2014 was his debut senior season internationally. When he did senior competitions and no longer did junior competition. It really didn't take that much work or thought to determine that. :think:

Anyway, I don't feel like getting into this discussion again, you obviously won't change your view on this and I probably spent way more time just posting these numbers, which people can take or leave. hwell:

 

[OS]

OS, I think you need to get over the fact that Jason got a lot of attention in 2014 while you think poor poor Jeremy has never been appreciated enough by international judges as much he should have been. Not Jason's fault and it's a bit tiresome at this point.

As to Jason's ostensibly meteoric PCS climb in the 2.5+ years he's been a senior, well, why don't you look at how long it took him to get 40+ PCS from international judges in the SP after he got out of junior versus how long it took Boyang Jin. Or how long it took his PCS to rise 8 points in the FS. Oh wait, you're probably whining about Jason's scores at Nationals, aren't you? Funny how you get so up in arms about Jason's national and international PCS but dont seem to have a problem with Adam's this year or last. Or Josh's last year. Or Boyang's this year, which even you admitted was inflated at COC. Or even Max's this past year. Like Phil Hersh, I guess you think there are some rules for Jason, and other rules for everyone else.

USFSA may be in love with Jason Brown, and willing to sacrifice the rest of their US men for it, but I just have never seen China doing the same. I happen to see Adam's result this year a payback from last year's judging disaster, similarly with Max. So yeah I am not too bothered... Adam should have won last year. Just like Nathan is last year's Adam. Around and around USFSA go... always 2 steps behind the rest of the world.

Eh, I was just posting numbers. 2013-2014 was his debut senior season internationally. When he did senior competitions and no longer did junior competition. It really didn't take that much work or thought to determine that. :think:

Anyway, I don't feel like getting into this discussion again, you obviously won't change your view on this and I probably spent way more time just posting these numbers, which people can take or leave. hwell:

Sure.. as long as they don't keep nit pick on what I mean by newbie years to invalidate the huge PCS discrepancy from skating at home by federation judges, vs international judges.

As for Boyang's PCS = 2000s wc PCS... i agree with your point....but dude.. have you seen the scale value lately across all singles? Evegenia's newbie SP has gathered higher PCS than Yuna's WC record breaking Danse Macabre from 2009? It is all relative. With men I have noticed, it is like ISU judges have been devided into two/three factions:
Chanadians vs Yuzuflavoured vs SpanishArribas.

Each faction trying to out do each other, then it brings the whole field up along with them on a relative basis. If Jason had been competing healthy, he too would have benefitted from this phenomenon as everyone had been.