Possible Khokhlova/ Andreev partnership

[Dodhiyel]

http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skating/70404520.html

In this article, from yesterday, Igor Shpilband expresses confidence in the pairing of Khokhlova and Andreyev. He says that he and Marina Zueva definitely want to "undertake this project". The article says the training will be in "America", so I think they will be training in Detroit, at Igor and Marina's regular training base. Only the financing is uncertain, for now. It may be that Igor is influenced by Marina in this, since Andreyev is her son, but I trust Igor's judgement, and I have seen on YouTube evidence that Fedor is deeply talented. Jumps used to be his weak point, years ago, but dancers do not have to jump. *wink* I am very eager to see this couple in action on the ice.

 

[blue_idealist]

Omg is this serious?! Wow.. I thought this would never work.

 

[yunasashafan]

Omg is this serious?! Wow.. I thought this would never work.

:scratch: so now Virtue and Moir, Davis and White, Samuelson and Bates AND Khokhlova and Andreev are training with Igor and Maria?? AND the Shibutanis

 

[bekalc]

Jana Khokhlova doesn't know what she is getting herself into...

That said, Fedor Andreev is actually well known in Canada, he used to be a well known skater in his early 20s. The mix feeling of having a well known Canadian skater now competing for Russia, possibly becoming Russia's new #1 dance team, competing against Canada's current Olympic & World Champions in Ice Dance who is trained together by the said skater's mother who left Russia to become a Canadian citizen... I don't know about you, my head is getting dizzy by all these turns and twists and inter-connections.

Well there's quite a lot of mixed feelings in Russia from what I understand about North Americans using coaches that were trained and developed by their former sports system. The feeling is no foreign coaches helped them win World or Olympic medals. And then for them to see young Russians not getting the training the once would have gotten...

To be frank the Russians have some really talented young dance teams coming up, so I'd think it would be difficult for Jana to be successful with Fedor. They'd be better of backing young teams like I/K and B/S, both which have more equal partnerships.

 

[wallylutz]

Well there's quite a lot of mixed feelings in Russia from what I understand about North Americans using coaches that were trained and developed by their former sports system. The feeling is no foreign coaches helped them win World or Olympic medals. And then for them to see young Russians not getting the training the once would have gotten...

Considering Marina Zueva was pretty much forced to leave Russia or starve because she was young and wasn't established when the Red Machine collapsed (only the like of Tarasova, Dubova and Moskvina were protected by the Russian Fed.), I don't think the Russians have any business in crying foul in 2010. She left Russia out of necessity, moved to Canada, used her skills to earn a living so that her and her son wouldn't starve on the streets. Where is the Russian Fed when she needed the support the most? Marina Zueva specifically said after the Winter Olympics that the program she created for Virtue/Moir in 2010 which led them to win the Olympic Gold was a special thanks to how Canadian people have treated her. If you were Marina Zueva, do you feel you owe the Russian Fed anything? I think not. That's why when Maxim Shabalin floated the idea that all Russian coaches should be recalled back to Russia after their defeat in Vancouver, Zueva just ignored that completely by saying no one has ever asked her this question in all these years. And when Russian Fed. later counter-proposed and said they want to send a team to work with them in America, Zueva responded by: "Show me the money" I think the Russian Fed. expected to play the national card and compel Zueva to coach a Russian team at deep discount but she wouldn't buy it. It says to me, she is perfectly comfortable and loyal to her adopted country for which she is now a citizen and marched with Virtue/Moir during the opening ceremony.

Igor Shpilband defected from the USSR, I doubt he would ever want to go back.

To be frank the Russians have some really talented young dance teams coming up, so I'd think it would be difficult for Jana to be successful with Fedor. They'd be better of backing young teams like I/K and B/S, both which have more equal partnerships.

Politics in Russia is sometimes difficult to understand. I read that if V/M were born in Russia, they would be slotted into 3rd place behind D/S and K/N due to their age. I/K may look hot now but it is not unusual for a World Junior Champ in Ice Dance to drop 20 points or more in transition from Junior to Senior. Very few World Junior Champs went on to have a successful Senior career. Likewise, even if you never won Junior Worlds, you could still be great in the Senior rank.

 

[bekalc]

Considering Marina Zueva was pretty much forced to leave Russia or starve because she was young and wasn't established when the Red Machine collapsed (only the like of Tarasova, Dubova and Moskvina were protected by the Russian Fed.),Where is the Russian Fed when she needed the support the most?

I never said that Zoueva and company didn't have good reason to leave. And Shalbin's call back to Russia was ridiculous. People have built their own lives. But I could point out that she and Igor would coach Russians because "they haven't forgotten where they came from." So I suspect it depends on their interview. The thing is while the Russian federation might not have been able to help her, and I think there was more they had to be concerned about then paying the coaches. The old system DID give her the tools to be able to get a good job in Canada.. And I think maybe that's where some of the Russians might feel a bit like, we paid for your training and now your using it against us... :lol:

I think though they can't really expect Igor or Marina to want to move back when they are so successful here. Any more than I think they can expect Valeri Liukin who wasn't a well established coach to move back to coach Russian gymnasts.

Still though skating is looking up for the future in Russia. And if they can partially rebuild their system, it might be attractive to benefit from it. Because they do know that system works. But I think Igor/Marina would be afraid to jeapordize their standing her with the North American federations...

 

[colleen o'neill]

:agree:Exactly, Wallylutz...These people didn't exactly have great career opportunities in Russia at the time and considering the hold of the hierarchy, their future prospects were not bright either. Even Dubova lost the favour of her federation...

Jana has nothing to lose by this move , if there really are no suitable partners for her in Russia. As of now , Z/S are seen as the premier Ice Dance coaches ... even if Fedor doesn't work out , she gets to keep skating.( she would still be able to make another change if something better came along) If I/K are kept at Junior level..she'll still be 1/2 of one of the top 3 Senior Russian teams.I don't think any of the people involved expect it to be a complete disaster. They all have their professional reputations to think of. They must think the have something worth working with.:think:

 

[colleen o'neill]

I don't know if i should edit, or post again..oh, well.

bekalc..I don't think Marina and Igor's various interviews necessarily show any disingenuousness. Their work is the product of the Russian school of skating ,even if they took their skill and knowledge in directions they wouldn't have been able to in Russia. I'm pretty sure no Russians have asked before , but I doubt Z/S would have said no, as long as there was no interference from the Russian federation.
OTOH, I'm sure they're both grateful for the opportunities they've had in their new countries...and I'm sure Marina was sincere when she told Canadian TV that she considered Tessa and Scott her 'Canadian Diamonds" ( how often does talent like that drop into a coach's hands ?)

I'm wondering if we're not seeing a speeded-up version of what happened in ballet in the last century..when Russian dancers and choreographers left Russia for artistic freedom in the west. For a long time ,Russia ignored them and their accomplishments, but eventually relaxed ,and now are proud that they produced them.They've accepted having to share them with everyone else.

 

[dorispulaski]

It seems unlikely that I&K will stay junior, eligible or not, any more than V&M stayed juniors after they won Jr. Worlds.

(and BTW, D&W went senior after finishing 3rd at the same Jr Worlds because Meryl had aged out of juniors. Charlie was a year younger, and could have remained a junior until he was 21.)

 

[colleen o'neill]

I bet you're right about I/K doris. Some people seem to think they'll stay...but I'd want to move them up, myself..

Still , although I wondered if I'd woken up on Mars the morning I first read the K/A rumour...this could be OK for Jana ..I doubt Z/S would risk putting out a product that was utterly embarrassing , son or no...The vids have been seen. Would the Russian Fed throw money at something they thought was doomed to failure ? ( Unless Jana's being used as a test balloon , to see if they ,RSF , can work with Z/S . I profoundly hope not.)

 

[gmyers]

This is from movies but Francis Ford Coppola was accepting of Sofia Coppola's performance in Godfather part 3. Any parent may convince themselves that their kid is good in something. And of course Andy Garcia acted opposite her. I hope Andreev is not Sofia and Yana is not poor Andy Garcia!! Andreev has no professional dance experience and all of a sudden he may represent a Dance powerhouse! I hope this works out if it gets past the test stage! khokhlova is too good to leave skating.

 

[bekalc]

bekalc..I don't think Marina and Igor's various interviews necessarily show any disingenuousness. Their work is the product of the Russian school of skating ,even if they took their skill and knowledge in directions they wouldn't have been able to in Russia. I'm pretty sure no Russians have asked before , but I doubt Z/S would have said no, as long as there was no interference from the Russian federation.
OTOH, I'm sure they're both grateful for the opportunities they've had in their new countries...and I'm sure Marina was sincere when she told Canadian TV that she considered Tessa and Scott her 'Canadian Diamonds" ( how often does talent like that drop into a coach's hands ?)

I was just saying that I don't think in interview, Zoueva and company have made it sound disingenous. I was just letting Wally lutz know, that I got a different impression from some different articles.

But mainly I thought it was pretty rich for him to suggest disloyalty for coaches that were developed in the former Soviet Union to want to work with both North Americans and Russians. Yes Canada may have given her a job, but I doubt its lost on her or Igor that the only reason they were valuable to Canada/N. America was because of their training in the Russian school.

As for the Russian ballet, I think that some of the issues here are deeper because I don't think Russian ballet ever truly suffered (Its still the best in the world) and plus its not like its a competition, its an art. Russian skating has suffered with the mass exodus.

I think its just one of those things were it can be hard to see countries who produced some of the greatest in gymnastics and skating, to suffer due to lack of coaches, when well they developed great coaches who are being used in other countries.

In gymnastics Ukraine and Belarus who used to have amazing gymnasts like Tourisheva, Gutsu, Podkaypeva, and in Belarus: Boginskaya are now struggling to produce gymnasts at all. Its a very sad situation. Russia has struggled to but they have been able to convince some coaches to comeback in the last two years. They even managed to convince a legendary Ukranian coach to comeback and work with their Juniors. This guy originally wanted to go back to the Ukraine but he decided against it because the Ukraine federation heavily underfunds their gymnasts and I suspect he didn't think he could be successful without funding. Where in contrast, the Russians not only offered him more pay, but the promise of really funding the gymnasts. I'm sure it helped too that people like Alexandrov who just came back who he worked with in the past are gone. They even convinced a big name coach who was working in Canada to come back too and run their entire program. I suspect though that for Russians the fact that Ostanpenko was a top Soviet coach, they probably don't consider it the same as a"foreign coach" :lol: Although frankly I do find it sad that he couldn't help save Ukranian gymnastics, but I understand his feelings. He did coach in the Ukraine for quite awhile after the break up.

Already the Russian girls especially are improving at an alarming rate, and fans of the sport are thrilled to see it happen. Of course I highly doubt that the Americans, Romanian, Chinese gymnastics federations are thrilled that Alexandrov and Ostanpenko are back at Round Lake.

 

[beep_beep]

I thought this was just one of those crazy rumours...

Khokhlova/Andreev??? Oh, dear. hwell:

Is it really happening??

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

1. I thought Shabalin was mostly joking when he made that comment (in the sense that he knew it was silly, but that it would likely help). English isn't his first language so I think he gets the benefit of the doubt with that comment. More generally, Z/S obviously benefited from the Russian system. They also benefit from the American/Canadian economy. Is it really any different than Brian Orser training Kim?

2. Colleen, your comment about Jana as a test balloon seems plausible. The dramatic way the team of K/N were raised and dropped over the last three seasons sorta lends credence. I don't know if Zueva would allow that though and it does seem the consequences would negate the tactical advantage, though.

 

[wallylutz]

2. Colleen, your comment about Jana as a test balloon seems plausible. The dramatic way the team of K/N were raised and dropped over the last three seasons sorta lends credence. I don't know if Zueva would allow that though and it does seem the consequences would negate the tactical advantage, though.

Russia has definitely been trying to "recall" Russian coaches back to Russia and even go as far as kicking out foreigners training in Russia and made it clear they will no longer allow foreigners to train there with a few exceptions. Whether Shabalin's comment was a joke or not, the reality is Russian Fed. has definitely gone that direction since.

Zueva has been quite desperate trying to find a female dance partner for her son - actually for quite a while. But in almost all cases, Fedor managed to scare the girls away and has developed a reputation of being a "bad boy". As recent as this past February during the Vancouver Olympic, I heard from the mother of a sync. skater who is on the Canadian world team - her daughter trains or trained in the same club as Zueva. Marina has repeatedly encouraged her to pair up with Fedor in Ice Dance. That woman told me her daughter said no way and gave me a fairly detailed accounts of Fedor's "history". No wonder he was never able to find anybody who would want to train with him. As for Jana Khokolova, I can only say "good luck"!

 

[colleen o'neill]

I thought that by the time Shabalin made the comment, the effort was already well underway to get coaches to return.

bekalc - I completely understand the ambivalence , even resentment that may prevail in Russia over the coaching situation. I can even sympathize... well, particularly with the fans. But the reality is that with all that went on in the world at large in the last 40-odd yrs., the situation as it exists now was pretty well inevitable. I hope that with all that's going on in the world today, bad feelings may get resolved more quickly . I think the internationalization of coaching is likely to benefit everyone in the long run.

I'm a real outsider when it comes to gymnastics:scratch:.. I'm not sure my little brain can begin to take that all in. It's all so..Byzantine.

ImaginaryPogue - I don't necessarily mean the trial balloon scenario in an entirely negative way, and I'm not entirely convinced that it's right..just leaning that way. I would hope no skater was simply being used by their federation. Maybe Jana truly has no feasible option for a partner in Russia at this time. Z/S are indisputably at the top of the coaching field now.They would be fools to leave behind what they worked so hard to build. They've made lives for themselves, formed emotional, as well as professional ties where they are. They have as much talent available to them as a coach could wish for.

They've said they would be willing to take on a Russian team, but the RSF may want to be completely sure they treat all their students equally before they commit a team they see as already having great potential to them. ( Didn't many of us feel B/A were given short shrift by Linichuk once D/S came under her wing ?)I think the RSF would want to be sure their team wouldn't find themselves in such a situation. They know they couldn't hope for favoritism , but maybe fairness would be enough. They'd want to be sure though.

Some people ( mostly on FSU , and mostly those who already view Z/S with a jaundiced eye )want to see Jana as a sacrifice to Zoueva's ambitions for her son...sort of the price Russia has to pay to gain entree for some other team. I think that's a bit simplistic.

It's probably just more like opening negotiations..and if Jana & Fedor can gain something by it , everyone could be satisfied. But I do think that whatever the RSF's thinking , whatever Zoueva's hopes to see her son's talent achieve something, once they take it on, it will be a serious project for Z/S....whew!

wallylutz - I haven't had access to any information that was so close to inside... but even I've heard a bit of Fedor gossip from my ( west coast) skating friends over the years. However, don't you think it's possible that a young man - even a flighty ,lazy , 'bad boy' - might reach a point where he'd see the writing on the wall and say, "This could be my last chance, I'd better buckle down?" I won't hold my breath , but I'm willing to wait and see ( and be entertained ). Jana may be , in some respects , soft and oh-so-pliable , but I sense a core of steel within.

 

[bekalc]

Is it really any different than Brian Orser training Kim?

The main difference is Orser is training in Canada, and that means that he can also coach young Canadian skaters and does. Russian coaches training in other countries can't do this. Of course, I will say that the Russia's top coaches moving to North America, saved Russian skating in the short term because it allowed their top skaters to get adequate training conditions. The biggest loss I think for the Russians was really their lower level coaches who established their kids basics, before they moved on to the top coaches, at least thats what I think.

I think the internationalization of coaching is likely to benefit everyone in the long run.

Really, everyone? I think the Russians did benefit short term. But I don't think everyone benefits from the internationalization of coaching. I know for example the Romanians joke that everyone has a Romanian gymnastics coach (and just about everyone but Russia and China do) and so soon their will be no more Romanian coaches left for Romanians. The Romanians can't afford to compete for their coaches-let along get a foreign coach to boast them in their historical weakness bars...

In this sense I don't feel that sorry for lets say Russia because they can now afford to hire back the best coaches from the former Soviet system and they are doing so. Whether they be Russian, Ukranian etc. I honestly don't consider a Ukranian coach working in Russia or a Russian coach working in the Ukraine as the same thing, because it seems to me that sports system was the achievement of all in the Soviet Union. But its sad to see nations like the Ukraine losing out of their best skaters/coaches, or becoming weak in gymnastics due to lack of coaching. Of course part of the problem is the Ukraine itself. Some of the coaches might have been willing to suffer less pay with adequate support. But less pay and no support to be competitive-not so much..

 

[ImaginaryPogue]

The main difference is Orser is training in Canada, and that means that he can also coach young Canadian skaters and does. Russian coaches training in other countries can't do this. Of course, I will say that the Russia's top coaches moving to North America, saved Russian skating in the short term because it allowed their top skaters to get adequate training conditions. The biggest loss I think for the Russians was really their lower level coaches who established their kids basics, before they moved on to the top coaches, at least thats what I think.

I wasn't aware Orser coached Canadian skaters. I only know of Kim, Gao, Kwak and Rippon

 

[bekalc]

I wasn't aware Orser coached Canadian skaters. I only know of Kim, Gao, Kwak and Rippon

He coaches a Canadian Junior I believe. And I think a Canadian pairs team. I would assume you can take lessons (maybe not from him) at the club he teaches at too. So that really is the main difference between a coach taking on a foreign student or two, and a coach completely training in another country. The issue for the Russians is when all the coaches left, there were few coaches available for the kids who wanted to take up skating. The already discovered big time skaters were fine, but the young ones who were just starting out/or wanted to start.

A better example would be if the majority of the skating rinks closed down and the coaches in the skating clubs, the majority left and all moved to other countries in Asia. Now maybe Frank Carroll let Mirai Nagasu move with him, but this meant that Frank and his associates were no longer working with the younger kids etc. I somehow don't think 10 years later that Americans, or Canadians would consider what happened "mutually beneficial." Maybe it would be beneficial for the coaches and the Asian skaters. But it wouldn't be beneficial for the Americans. However, the main thing to would be our government didn't pay for Frank Carroll's training etc.

And the difference between the Americans and the Russians, is that in the case of the Russian coaches, a lot of their training was given to them for free by the government. And all governments are financed directly or indirectly by their people. So indirectly the Russians can feel like they paid for those coaches knowledge. Which can lead to how new feelings. I'm not sure what can be done though because I do think skating benefits from more depth. And I also think that the Russians could benefit to from this system, if they wanted too. But I can see where the resentment is coming from, and I especially feel for countries like Romania in this scenario.

 

[Ituriel]

I haven't had access to any information that was so close to inside... but even I've heard a bit of Fedor gossip from my ( west coast) skating friends over the years. However, don't you think it's possible that a young man - even a flighty ,lazy , 'bad boy' - might reach a point where he'd see the writing on the wall and say, "This could be my last chance, I'd better buckle down?" I won't hold my breath , but I'm willing to wait and see ( and be entertained ). Jana may be , in some respects , soft and oh-so-pliable , but I sense a core of steel within.

Her (almost former) coach said in a interview that Khokhlova is the leader of the couple because she has a very dominant personality.

Makes me wonder how will be the relatioship with Andreev