Praising Kimmie

[eliza88]

I really enjoyed Kimmie's skate...I have watched it several times and each time it simply makes me smile! Sure she is not skating "mature" yet, but it was great fun to see her skate that program to the very best of her ability! She brought it and sold it...maybe that is why I was so excited about her skate...or maybe I have just been starved for a "lay down the gauntlet" type of skate! She IS pleasant to watch, she DOES have beautiful posture, she improved upon this LP from Nats to the Olympics and improved it even more for Worlds! I loved seeing that improvement and I can't wait to see what she will do in the years to come! This young gal is a fierce competitor and a very hard worker, AND she is driven...

eliza88

 

[R.D.]

I agree with the last sentence. But sadly, that's about all I agree with in your post.

But good for her for laying it down. This marks the what...third or fourth Worlds IN A ROW that the winner had the skate of her life in the FS to win it?!

 

[eliza88]

Well RedDog, I think it's all about expectations and attitude...after watching Sasha's skate I was so sad and felt so bad for her...I love that LP and I so wanted to see it skated as beautifully as possible...let's just say I was at an emotional low. Then comes Kimmie, and I basically said to the TV, "Okay, Kimmie, show me what you got!" Well, she did! I didn't expect her to be as breathtaking as Sasha, as fluid and emotional as Michelle, I expected her to be Kimmie and she was Kimmie at her best. That I found exciting.

eliza88

 

[nghtvsn]

I definitely agree that Kimmie has excellent posture no doubt, but she needs to really work on her presentation and holding out moves and doing something about the technique on her 3/3 combos. Someone in another thread mentioned that it seemed like she was doing toe axles or something and I must say that her triple toes on the 3/3 do look weird in the way she does them. Also, I hope she never does an Arabian style, theme, music, or past source material for a program again because that stuff is so Played.

 

[Mathman]

Both Kimmie and Mao Asada do that toe-Axel pre-rotation thing on their toe loops. It will be interesting to see if they work on that for next season.

About extension and finishing her movements, I thought she did much better in her exhibition skate, where she didn't have to worry so much about the jumps, than in her LP. So I think she is capable of improving in that area pretty quickly.

But hey, it's a competition. You don't have to be perfect, just better than the other guy. Kimmie blew eveyone else out of the water.

MM

 

[kyla2]

Kimmie

Kimmie deserved the gold hands down. But as everyone has already said, she has to work on the PCS. I would love to become a major fan of her skating; nothing would make me happier. I wonder if I should send her all my Michelle Kwan tapes for inspiration???

 

[mzheng]

Kimmie deserved the gold hands down. But as everyone has already said, she has to work on the PCS.

She was already getting the PCS she diddn't deserve in her LP. (she deserve her win, but not with this PCSs). The worst posture in her stroking from any top lady that I saw. I used to think Elena and Onda have bad/choping stroking. Now compare to Kimmie they are master of basic stroking.

Too bad, Dick was not there. Other wise I'd like to hear Uncle Dick's comments "some of young skaters can triple/triples all a long, but they can't stroking. Can't even skate from this end of rink to the other end properly."

 

[tiara]

Both Kimmie and Mao Asada do that toe-Axel pre-rotation thing on their toe loops. It will be interesting to see if they work on that for next season.

Mao did not include the triple toe loop in her programs this season. So, she can not do the toe axel either. However, she actually did a double toe loop in her free program at the Japanese Nationals. At that time she changed her free program and tried to include two 3 axels. So, one of them has to be a combination. That is why she had to add a double toe loop which was recognized as a toe axel and downgraded to a single toe loop. She was caught by the caller at that time. However, she actually placed her toe backward, not forward. Even though she continued to rotate on the ice, before she completed a half turn of her body, her toe left the ice.

On the other hand, Kimmie's toe is forward-planted(more than a quarter turn) and her toe continues to rotate even after a half rotation of her body before her toe leaves the ice. I would say that Kimmie's toe axels are more blatant than Mao's. The Japanese caller has caught the less blatant toe axeler, but the ISU caller let the more blatant toe axeler free. What a unfair world it is!

 

[Mathman]

She was already getting the PCS she didn't deserve in her LP. (She deserve her win, but not with this PCSs).

Here are the PCSs that Kimmie got in her major events this year.

Eric Bompard -- 51.12
NHK -- 51.68
Olympics -- 53.54
Worlds qualifying -- 53.04

Worlds LP -- 60.23

I think there are two reasons why Kimmie suddenly jumped 7 points higher than ever before. First, if you want high component scores, do two triple-triples. That is, the component scores usually just track the technical scores.

It was like this under ordinal judging, too. You never saw a skater get, say, 5.8, 5.1, even if that's what she deserved.

The second reason, IMO, is that the judges had to make sure that Kimmie finished higher than Sasha, to avoid embarrassing themselves and the new judging system.

I bet if Kimmie had skated before Sasha, Kimmie's PCSs would have been lower.

MM

 

[Mafke]

(Michael Farris)

I'll say two things, one uncontroversial, and one that I'm surprised no one's said yet (I may have missed it if someone did, but I can't imagine I'm the only one thinking this):

1. I'm not a Meissner fan yet, but I can easily imagine becoming one. She really does seem to realize her presentation weaknesses (or those on her team do) and is working on them. I thought her presentation was better in Calgary than Turin, I imagine she's been working hard.
She's trying to skater more mature than she is or can pull off entirely and I much prefer that to trying to skater her age or even younger.
I look forward to seeing her style mature. That means, I'd like for her to find her own style I think she's maybe modelling herself after Kwan just a little too much right now, very natural but I'd like to see her develop more on her own.

2. I'm _so_ glad that she pulled out that LP performance in Calgary and not in Turin.

 

[Mathman]

2. I'm _so_ glad that she pulled out that LP performance in Calgary and not in Turin.

Wouldn't that have been something? I wonder how it would have been scored against Arakawa's beautiful and mature, but technically unexceptional, skate.

 

[antmanb]

(Michael Farris)

I'll say two things, one uncontroversial, and one that I'm surprised no one's said yet (I may have missed it if someone did, but I can't imagine I'm the only one thinking this):

1. I'm not a Meissner fan yet, but I can easily imagine becoming one. She really does seem to realize her presentation weaknesses (or those on her team do) and is working on them. I thought her presentation was better in Calgary than Turin, I imagine she's been working hard.
She's trying to skater more mature than she is or can pull off entirely and I much prefer that to trying to skater her age or even younger.
I look forward to seeing her style mature. That means, I'd like for her to find her own style I think she's maybe modelling herself after Kwan just a little too much right now, very natural but I'd like to see her develop more on her own.

2. I'm _so_ glad that she pulled out that LP performance in Calgary and not in Turin.

I don't think either statement is controversial - i agree with all of it. Particularly that she sakted better both PCS and TES wise in Calgary than in Turin, but i still think the PCS were too high for what she actually did. I also think it was a mistake to use the music she did - some of it was the same as Michelle's '96 salmoe wasn't it? Even though it was ten years ago i think hearing that music still begs for people to compare and Kimmie was always going to come up short of the Michelle's performance to that music at this stage.

I think she is working hard though and it would be something to see her keep improving artistically. I'd rather see her put more effort into the PCS over the summer than in getting the 3A. I guess it depends on what Yu-Na Kim and Mao Asada are going to come out with technically/artistcally next year.

Ant

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Ant and others:

Rather than say the PCS scores were too high, I think it would be more interesting to mention which ones among the six(?) categories that show the weakness.

For example. Her skating skills seem fine to me. Maybe not the greatest but I don't think she was scored as the greatest.

Choreo - was fine but she didn't do much with it to make it her own. How much credit does Nichol get and how much debit does Kimmie get?

Joe

 

[antmanb]

Ant and others:

Rather than say the PCS scores were too high, I think it would be more interesting to mention which ones among the six(?) categories that show the weakness.

For example. Her skating skills seem fine to me. Maybe not the greatest but I don't think she was scored as the greatest.

Choreo - was fine but she didn't do much with it to make it her own. How much credit does Nichol get and how much debit does Kimmie get?

Joe

Good question - i haven't poured over the protocols yet...the skaters aren't the only ones who are tired at the end of a season!!!

Skating skills - she seems good at, Jo you were there live, what's her speed like? Eurosport commentators i think said she was "rocketing" around the rink - is she really that fast? Is she Kostner fast?

Execution - i would put this at below average. I think this improved immensely from Torino but it was still not great. I think she needs to really hold positions for longer and finish the moves properly. She still has a slightly choppy rushed style but this will only improve with time and age.

Transitions - i really can't remember the program in this much detail but i never really thought i saw too many cross overs in a row - there was quite a set up to both triple triples but that's kind of fair enough...really don't know about this without checking the dvd again.

Interpretation - this is where i presume the expression of the skater should be marked and this is the mark that i think should be the lowest. Kimmie is great technically and was doing the choreography she was given reasonably well but she didn't make the choreography look natural, it was a little wooden, a little forced but again its to be expected for her age and given the technical content. This too will only get better with age and time.

Choregoraphy - this was good and all credit to nichol as choreographer.

Just had a quick look at the protocol to get all the PCS categories and i find it interesting that none of her spins had a negative GOE but i thought she stepped out/stumbled the exit of one of the spins near the end? I think that shows the judges were caught in the moment somewhat. I'm also surprised by the number of positive GOEs on the spins which i really think are the weakest side of Kimmie's skating.

Ant

 

[flying camel]

I loved that performance. I have watched it several times also. Though I have seen her skate it many times, this was the first time she sold that routine. That was the difference for me. Her win makes me wonder if they had not changed the age rule, and she had competed at Worlds last year and gotten that experience she probably would have won those Olympics.

 

[clairecloutier]

I feel like some of the negative reactions to Kimmie's win have been a little extreme.

For those who feel that Kimmie is completely amateurish and juniorish in her presentation, and therefore undeserving of high artistic scores . . . well, I can understand the point, but at the same time, I think it's not giving Kimmie enough credit. I would almost argue that rather than being overmarked at Worlds, perhaps she was slightly undermarked before.

There are actually a lot of great presentation aspects to Kimmie's skating:

1. Her choreography is quite good and compares favorably with that of many older skaters, such as Sokolova and Liashenko.

2. Her speed and flow across the ice are very good. I saw her skate live this year and was very impressed with this aspect of her skating. She really just flew across the ice. She has more speed and flow than many older, better-known skaters.

3. The quality of her posture and body line is definitely nowhere near Sasha's or Michelle's. But she still, overall, has quite good posture and line. Again, she really compares favorably here with many older skaters, such as Slutskaya, Sokolova, or even Kostner or Suguri. Irina is not at all known for her elegance of line or posture; neither is Sokolova.

To me, Kimmie's biggest presentation weakness is in the performance component. She doesn't yet have the musicality, phrasing, and audience rapport that older, more polished skaters such as Michelle and Sasha do.

But I do think when you look at the overall package of Kimmie's presentation, there's a lot to appreciate. Although she's young, I find her performances aesthestically pleasing and enjoyable to watch.

I personally was very happy to see her win. I feel like she's a much-needed breath of fresh air in ladies' skating. She is a great skater and seems like a nice young woman as well. Her youthful enthusiasm makes her a lot of fun.

 

[antmanb]

I feel like some of the negative reactions to Kimmie's win have been a little extreme.

For those who feel that Kimmie is completely amateurish and juniorish in her presentation, and therefore undeserving of high artistic scores . . . well, I can understand the point, but at the same time, I think it's not giving Kimmie enough credit. I would almost argue that rather than being overmarked at Worlds, perhaps she was slightly undermarked before.

There are actually a lot of great presentation aspects to Kimmie's skating:

1. Her choreography is quite good and compares favorably with that of many older skaters, such as Sokolova and Liashenko.

2. Her speed and flow across the ice are very good. I saw her skate live this year and was very impressed with this aspect of her skating. She really just flew across the ice. She has more speed and flow than many older, better-known skaters.

3. The quality of her posture and body line is definitely nowhere near Sasha's or Michelle's. But she still, overall, has quite good posture and line. Again, she really compares favorably here with many older skaters, such as Slutskaya, Sokolova, or even Kostner or Suguri. Irina is not at all known for her elegance of line or posture; neither is Sokolova.

To me, Kimmie's biggest presentation weakness is in the performance component. She doesn't yet have the musicality, phrasing, and audience rapport that older, more polished skaters such as Michelle and Sasha do.

But I do think when you look at the overall package of Kimmie's presentation, there's a lot to appreciate. Although she's young, I find her performances aesthestically pleasing and enjoyable to watch.

I personally was very happy to see her win. I feel like she's a much-needed breath of fresh air in ladies' skating. She is a great skater and seems like a nice young woman as well. Her youthful enthusiasm makes her a lot of fun.

Don't get me wrong i totally think Kimmie deserved the win and i'm not questioning her talent or her ability...more than anything i was commenting on how the judges just aren't marking the PCS, they just track the PCS.

Bringing Irina and Sokolova up is intersting because they are two skaters who i think have benefitted from PCS or presnetation marks tracking the technical. Irina's PCS marks in this past season have been a total joke with marks in the 8s.

The thing to remember about Kimmie is that she is very young and at the start of her career. The most difficult thing in this sport is laying down that 7 triple program, if you have the talent, ability and competitive nerve to do that then you can work hard at the artistic side and i have no doubt that Kimmie will work on this aspect for the future...she's sure to be getting a four year plan in place to get her to Vancouver and i'm sure improving aritstically is high on the plan.

Ant

 

[jsteam4501s]

I appreciate the creation of this thread, I might have been the one to create it myself if no one else had. A few observations about some of the posts here:

- Personally I enjoy seeing a early or middle teen "skating her age". Rather than looking "like a junior skater", no, she looks like a 16-year-old Senior skater.
No, I don't want her to skate like a 20-year-old belly dancer the way they tried to make Michelle look at 16.

- I thought the "Queen of Sheba" music was fine except for that "snake charmer" segment - you know, that "Bomba-bom-bom-bom tweedle-deedle-dee-dee-dee" and so-forth - Ugh!! But the rest of the music sounded fairly mature, though not TOO mature for a 16-year-old power skater - and that beautiful, long, brassy chord at the very end of the program spoke of POWER!!

- Those of you who don't think she is capable of lovely, lyrical movement might have missed her short and long programs at Nationals 2005 - the short was to a piece by Debussy, the DEAN of soft, poetic music - and the long was to Daphnis&Chloe, a LOVELY montage of "hummingbird music" - remember Dick Button at that time saying "She skates like a hummingbird, with quick, clean movements and suspended in mid-air !" ??

- But Kimmie herself was quoted as saying this season was about learning the
new system and about establishing an "athletic plateau" that would impress the judges to set her up for future seasons. I would suggest that those of you who didn't watch her 2005 Nationals programs, go back and watch them if you think you have them recorded. I think under the new system, her PCS scores for her 2005 long program in particular would have been very high.

 

[R.D.]

Kimmie's a great skater. But I think her fanbase is significantly lower than, say, Cohen's or Kwan's. This is understanable given that she hasn't been in the senior limelight for too long, but unfortunately for her I think many people admire her guts but can't quite dig her skating enough to be a FAN.

 

[Doggygirl]

Kimmie's a great skater. But I think her fanbase is significantly lower than, say, Cohen's or Kwan's. This is understanable given that she hasn't been in the senior limelight for too long, but unfortunately for her I think many people admire her guts but can't quite dig her skating enough to be a FAN.

I admire her guts, and I'm a fan. (of KimmyKitty!!!!!) I'm also a major Cohen fan and also a Kwan fan. And an FS Fan Big Time!! My only speculation on next season for US Ladies is that we will probably hear something from Cohen about her plans, and little to nothing from Kwan and her plans. That's all OK by me - their choice. I'm really curious about Stephanie Rosenthal's plans!! There is a part of me that thinks a different country should "adopt" her (in my imagination - not necessarily my legal / political opinion). On the other hand, I hope to watch her SP and LP again, and it might be worth the price of an all event ticket to do it. (jeez - did I just say that?? West Coast here i come?? HEY - i LOVE the West Coast!!...decisions decisions....)

DG