Pre-rotation versus cheated landing

[Mathman]

We have had several discussions about what constitutes a fully rotated jump under the rules of the ISU judging system. This document (guidelines for technical specialists) sheds some light on the question.

http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152073-169289-64128-0-file,00.pdf

First, about the rule of "no more than a quarter turn cheat on the landing," this applies to the blade on the ice, not the position of the body:

The Technical Specialist will identify any jump that is cheated by more than one quarter turn on the landing as the jump of the lower value. For example, a triple Lutz that rotates 2.5 turns by the foot placement and 2.75 turns of the upper body will be counted as a double Lutz.

About pre-rotation, there does not seem to be any specific rule about that -- it is just taken into account in the GOE. The only specification is in the case of a 180 degree pre-rotation:

The clear forward take-off other than Axel type jump will be considered as a cheated jump.

(There are lots of other interesting details in this document.)

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Unfortunately, there is nothing written about pre rotation and Tara knew how to get half turn on the ice for those consecutive loop jumps.

I think that specification of 180 degree pre rotation only applies to that axel-like toe loop. btw, is that actually written in the rules?

The axel itself takes off on a forward outside edge. To pre rotate it would be a disaster for the skater (listen to Button).

In the case of Evan, from what I saw on the youtube, he skidded an entire turn on the ice, then dug in his toe pick and jumped. Weird, and the infallible Caller did not catch it.

Joe

 

[feraina]

In the case of Evan, from what I saw on the youtube, he skidded an entire turn on the ice, then dug in his toe pick and jumped.

Which competition/performance was this?

 

[Tinymavy15]

a few times, but watch nationals, right after the quad combo.

 

[feraina]

a few times, but watch nationals, right after the quad combo.

Thanks. I was so upset about Johnny that I could only bear to peek at that program once from behind the couch, so to speak, and didn't want to see his worlds LP either. But I'm curious about this axel entry, never heard of anything like this before.

 

[ae9177]

For Evan's triple Axel, the skid before taking off does look scary, but it's not a cheated jump, because it's fully rotated in air. I read it somewhere that Frank Carroll changed Evan's 3A technique after his hip fracture in 2004 to prevent aggravation of his injury. If you watch his Jr Worlds competition, his taking off technique was different.

 

[feraina]

For Evan's triple Axel, the skid before taking off does look scary, but it's not a cheated jump, because it's fully rotated in air.

Just watched his 3axel in his nationals LP -- there's 3/4 turn on the ice if not 360 degees. And I don't think he did 3.5 turns in the air _in addition_ to that turn. Otherwise, it'd be like a cheated 4-axel!

 

[layman]

Evan's 3-axel is pre-rotated and under-rotated. It's looks to me like 2 1/2 rotations in the air and a half-turn cheat on the take-off and a half-turn cheat on the landing...adds up to a whole revolution completed on the ice. Kimmie's 3-axel (at the 2005 Nationals) was cleaner (hers was 3 rotations in the air and .5 of a revolution on the ice).

 

[icestar]

rotation

1. the caller will only call the toe (toe axel) for pre rotation. If you look at slow motion video of all the backward entry jumps the skater does not leave the ice until they have rotated about half a turn, this is how the jump is supposed to be performed. For example if you were to look at a Salchow take-off tracing on the ice it is a hook shape not a straight line, ie. it actually has a forward take-off.

2. as the other post mentioned the caller only calls a jump under rotated if the blade hits the ice at more than a 1/4 under rotated. Landing 1/4 under turned will still be counted as a fully rotated jump. It is virtually impossible to hold a steady fluid outside edge landing if the jump in fully rotated (landed in a straight line).

There was an article in the USFSA magazine a few years back about the biomechanics of the quad toe. they videoed and put sensors on a bunch of the america men who do quad and figure out it is actually 3.1 rotation in the air. The body was doing 190 degrees before take off(when the last piece of the blade came off the ice) and about 45 on landing. And that's a clean one.

Just food for thought.

 

[Mathman]

Thanks for that informative psort, Icestar!