Problems with jumps/twizzles on Pattern 99s?

[newbee]

Hi, I’ve started wondering whether my daughter might need to change blades.

She has been skating on Pattern 99s for about a year and a half now. Her spins are stable at Level 3, and she lands 2S, 2T, and 2Lo consistently. She has also landed 3S and 3Lo several times. However, she is really struggling with 2F and 2Lz.

I recently read that the toe pick on Pattern 99 can sometimes create issues with those jumps, and now I’m wondering whether that could be part of the problem.

Another issue is that she switched from Coronation Ace to Pattern 99, and ever since that change she has had trouble with twizzles.

Are there any coaches or skaters at a similar or higher level who have experience with this kind of issue? I’d be very interested to hear whether anyone has seen similar problems with Pattern 99, especially when it comes to flip, lutz, or twizzles after switching blades.

 

[Casey]

Disclaimer: I'm not a coach and am nowhere near that level, but Pattern 99s have a larger, more aggressive toe pick profile compared to Coronation Aces. That can absolutely affect flip and lutz technique - her muscle memory for the pick angle and pressure may not have fully adapted to the new blades.

Pattern 99s also have a flatter rocker than Coronation Aces, which changes how the blade responds during multi-rotation turns. People who switch often report feeling less fluid on twizzles until they adjust their balance point.

That said, she’s landing triples at her age, so the blades clearly aren’t holding her back. The question is whether adapting technique to the blade makes more sense than switching blades to match her existing technique. I personally switched to Paramount blades with a Pattern 99-like profile (granted not exactly the same), and don't like them at all. Others love that profile so YMMV. I would suggest trying Gold Seal or Phantom blades if you decide to try a change.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Hi, I’ve started wondering whether my daughter might need to change blades.

She has been skating on Pattern 99s for about a year and a half now. Her spins are stable at Level 3, and she lands 2S, 2T, and 2Lo consistently. She has also landed 3S and 3Lo several times. However, she is really struggling with 2F and 2Lz.

I recently read that the toe pick on Pattern 99 can sometimes create issues with those jumps, and now I’m wondering whether that could be part of the problem.

Another issue is that she switched from Coronation Ace to Pattern 99, and ever since that change she has had trouble with twizzles.

Are there any coaches or skaters at a similar or higher level who have experience with this kind of issue? I’d be very interested to hear whether anyone has seen similar problems with Pattern 99, especially when it comes to flip, lutz, or twizzles after switching blades.

Hi and welcome. I have worn P99's for years now for my freestyle skating and it does take adjustment to the picks and her balance point among other things. Being an ice dancer, I am able to twizzle on them no problem, but had a small adjustment to make, but for my ice dancing I wear dance blades on my other boots.

She has two options: Try to adjust and give it a bit of time. Or look at the Ultima Apex Advanced Supreme blade: They allow for your choice of 3 pick patterns and she could get the one that would most fit her jumping and skating. I'd suggest looking at the Supreme or Elite Pick pattern on those blades, they will be closer to what she had with the Coro Aces.

Good luck!

 

[IceM]

Can be many things. For twizzles, it's mostly about adjusting to the different placement of the flatter rocker. If she's landing edge jumps consistently, and her spins are good, then the rocker should be fine, unless she's always had better edge jumps/spins than toe jumps? Could be that the blade profile just doesn't suit her, and the different picks might not be helping, either. Hard to say without seeing her technique, exactly.

But she's struggled with them a long time already, so I wouldn't just try adjusting forever. It's probably worth trying different blades at this point to get a better idea what might work better for her. I would try Gold Seals first, before considering other brands.

 

[newbee]

Hi and welcome. I have worn P99's for years now for my freestyle skating and it does take adjustment to the picks and her balance point among other things. Being an ice dancer, I am able to twizzle on them no problem, but had a small adjustment to make, but for my ice dancing I wear dance blades on my other boots.

She has two options: Try to adjust and give it a bit of time. Or look at the Ultima Apex Advanced Supreme blade: They allow for your choice of 3 pick patterns and she could get the one that would most fit her jumping and skating. I'd suggest looking at the Supreme or Elite Pick pattern on those blades, they will be closer to what she had with the Coro Aces.

Good luck!

Thank you very much for the detailed answers.
I have not looked at apex at all, as no one in our club has those blades. But it could look like a possible solution for my daughter, thank you.
Unfortunately, my daughter's coaches cannot help with answers, as they do not feel they have enough experience. So we are glad that you could help with some clarification.

 

[newbee]

Can be many things. For twizzles, it's mostly about adjusting to the different placement of the flatter rocker. If she's landing edge jumps consistently, and her spins are good, then the rocker should be fine, unless she's always had better edge jumps/spins than toe jumps? Could be that the blade profile just doesn't suit her, and the different picks might not be helping, either. Hard to say without seeing her technique, exactly.

But she's struggled with them a long time already, so I wouldn't just try adjusting forever. It's probably worth trying different blades at this point to get a better idea what might work better for her. I would try Gold Seals first, before considering other brands.

Thank you.
Can you explain what you mean by this? "Could be that the blade profile just doesn't suit her".
She has always had an easier time with edge jumps than toe jumps

 

[IceM]

Thank you.
Can you explain what you mean by this? "Could be that the blade profile just doesn't suit her".
She has always had an easier time with edge jumps than toe jumps

It comes down to preference and technique, but anatomy can play a role with what might suit someone best.

The way the blade feels is affected mostly by where the boot/blade naturally sit (when you put it on a table), where the spinning sweet spot is, and how far apart these points are.

These are affected by the rocker radii of the different parts of the blade, as well as any differences between the stanchion heights (commonly referred to as "heel lift" but it's often used in the opposite meaning to what it really does).

If we put the P99 as a comparison in the middle, it has a somewhat "flat" profile with slightly taller back stanchion. Gold Seal will have the spinning sweet spot further forward closer to the toes, and will sit more forward overall as well (front/back stanchions are the same height). If we take an Ultima blade, then regardless of the chosen pick pattern, the rest of the specs remain the same: an even flatter blade (both spinner and usually main rocker as well when measured), with even taller back stanchions, meaning you're skating "on your heels" much more.

Anatomy can play a role here, because for some, the sweet spot on the Gold Seal might be hard to reach, and vice versa, having it too far back can be even worse (things get really scratchy). And the toe pick should be correctly positioned as well (so blade placement is limited too).

Why I would try the Gold Seal first is that the change is less drastic (same manufacturer), and for a good spinner, it's a great blade anyway (faster spins). And if the change feels wrong, then you go the other direction with Ultima. And the change from CA to P99 was basically: flatter blade, with back stanchion lift, meaning a more heel-heavy blade. So if that created problems, I wouldn't necessarily move towards even flatter, and more heel-heavy blades, like Ultimas. Therefore, Gold Seal.

I would not pay too much attention to the pick patterns. Gold Seal will have more familiar picks, as well as the Supreme pattern from Ultima. But pick patterns do not matter as much as everything else mentioned, as they are easiest to adjust to; the choice there is almost entirely preference.

Because she has problems with something like twizzles she didn't have before, it suggests she might be having to fight the blade more than she should, and she could just be handling it better on her stronger elements, masking the problem. But from here, this is mostly guesswork. How are her brackets, rockers, and counters? That could tell more. But yeah, that's how I would approach the problem.

Anyway, I hope this makes some sense, and good luck!

 

[Diana Delafield]

It comes down to preference and technique, but anatomy can play a role with what might suit someone best.

The way the blade feels is affected mostly by where the boot/blade naturally sit (when you put it on a table), where the spinning sweet spot is, and how far apart these points are.

These are affected by the rocker radii of the different parts of the blade, as well as any differences between the stanchion heights (commonly referred to as "heel lift" but it's often used in the opposite meaning to what it really does).

If we put the P99 as a comparison in the middle, it has a somewhat "flat" profile with slightly taller back stanchion. Gold Seal will have the spinning sweet spot further forward closer to the toes, and will sit more forward overall as well (front/back stanchions are the same height). If we take an Ultima blade, then regardless of the chosen pick pattern, the rest of the specs remain the same: an even flatter blade (both spinner and usually main rocker as well when measured), with even taller back stanchions, meaning you're skating "on your heels" much more.

Anatomy can play a role here, because for some, the sweet spot on the Gold Seal might be hard to reach, and vice versa, having it too far back can be even worse (things get really scratchy). And the toe pick should be correctly positioned as well (so blade placement is limited too).

Why I would try the Gold Seal first is that the change is less drastic (same manufacturer), and for a good spinner, it's a great blade anyway (faster spins). And if the change feels wrong, then you go the other direction with Ultima. And the change from CA to P99 was basically: flatter blade, with back stanchion lift, meaning a more heel-heavy blade. So if that created problems, I wouldn't necessarily move towards even flatter, and more heel-heavy blades, like Ultimas. Therefore, Gold Seal.

I would not pay too much attention to the pick patterns. Gold Seal will have more familiar picks, as well as the Supreme pattern from Ultima. But pick patterns do not matter as much as everything else mentioned, as they are easiest to adjust to; the choice there is almost entirely preference.

Because she has problems with something like twizzles she didn't have before, it suggests she might be having to fight the blade more than she should, and she could just be handling it better on her stronger elements, masking the problem. But from here, this is mostly guesswork. How are her brackets, rockers, and counters? That could tell more. But yeah, that's how I would approach the problem.

Anyway, I hope this makes some sense, and good luck!

As corroboration, I spent my competitive years on MK Pros because there weren't as many other blades to choose from. I have very high arches and thin heels, plus I do a lot of dance off the ice, so I tend to naturally skate on my toes, so to speak. My weight is much more on the balls of my feet. I now use Gold Seals and love them. My spins improved when I switched. Pairs didn't do twizzles in my day so mine were never good, but I mastered them when I switched to the weight-forward Gold Seals.

I tried Pattern 99s once for about five minutes, most of which time I spent flat on my back after a few strokes skating on my heels with my toes in the air, or so it felt. Never again! Gold Seals suit my foot shape and where my natural balance point is. So I agree with @IceM, let your skater try the other blades suggested there and by @Ic3Rabbit and see in which direction to go, lower or higher at the back. One or other extreme will feel just right, like Goldilocks on skates.

 

[newbee]

It comes down to preference and technique, but anatomy can play a role with what might suit someone best.

The way the blade feels is affected mostly by where the boot/blade naturally sit (when you put it on a table), where the spinning sweet spot is, and how far apart these points are.

These are affected by the rocker radii of the different parts of the blade, as well as any differences between the stanchion heights (commonly referred to as "heel lift" but it's often used in the opposite meaning to what it really does).

If we put the P99 as a comparison in the middle, it has a somewhat "flat" profile with slightly taller back stanchion. Gold Seal will have the spinning sweet spot further forward closer to the toes, and will sit more forward overall as well (front/back stanchions are the same height). If we take an Ultima blade, then regardless of the chosen pick pattern, the rest of the specs remain the same: an even flatter blade (both spinner and usually main rocker as well when measured), with even taller back stanchions, meaning you're skating "on your heels" much more.

Anatomy can play a role here, because for some, the sweet spot on the Gold Seal might be hard to reach, and vice versa, having it too far back can be even worse (things get really scratchy). And the toe pick should be correctly positioned as well (so blade placement is limited too).

Why I would try the Gold Seal first is that the change is less drastic (same manufacturer), and for a good spinner, it's a great blade anyway (faster spins). And if the change feels wrong, then you go the other direction with Ultima. And the change from CA to P99 was basically: flatter blade, with back stanchion lift, meaning a more heel-heavy blade. So if that created problems, I wouldn't necessarily move towards even flatter, and more heel-heavy blades, like Ultimas. Therefore, Gold Seal.

I would not pay too much attention to the pick patterns. Gold Seal will have more familiar picks, as well as the Supreme pattern from Ultima. But pick patterns do not matter as much as everything else mentioned, as they are easiest to adjust to; the choice there is almost entirely preference.

Because she has problems with something like twizzles she didn't have before, it suggests she might be having to fight the blade more than she should, and she could just be handling it better on her stronger elements, masking the problem. But from here, this is mostly guesswork. How are her brackets, rockers, and counters? That could tell more. But yeah, that's how I would approach the problem.

Anyway, I hope this makes some sense, and good luck!

thank you so much for the good explanation. It gave me a lot to research and think about, and we will study together with her trainer to find out what her needs and problems are. Thank you for elaborating and explaining so well <3