Problems with skate judging? (Two Hersh articles)

[Medusa]

Interesting article. Interesting quotes.

One thing you learn in history class is to analyse the background of the authors of your text sources: in what circumstances was the author himself? Did he have any personal interest in the subject/problem? Was the subject/problem an advantage for the the author?

If I do it here it comes down to this: two guys who maybe in the Top Ten at Worlds - and have been there for half a decade now - but never managed to win more than a Bronze at an important international competition. Those Bronzes they only won when others seriously bombed, dropped out etc. At the important competitions they were always in the background, the stars were Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert, Takahashi and Buttle. And now new stars like Kozuka and Chan are currently there who have zero problems with the new judging system and use it to their advantage.

Perhaps there is a certain amount of bitterness involved? Because guys like Buttle really celebrated the new judging system, some coaches too (Orser praised it last season before Canadians) - and others just keep their mouthes shut and win competitions - with beautiful programs, like Takahashi last year, Abbott this year. Most interviews with Lysacek or Weir include some complaints about the judging system. This constant griping is infuriating.

And Weir wouldn't have won a single ISU competition under 6.0, because apparently the guy can't land a clean Quad to save his life. I quote from the Archives from Ice Skating International, Worlds 2000

A total of eight quads were landed in the free skating. Takeshi Honda, Zhengxin Guo, and Vincent Restencourt landed quad toe loops. Timothy Goebel landed quad Salchow - triple toe loop and a solo quad toe loop, Chengjiang Li landed the quad toe loop in a quad-triple toe loop combination, but not the triple. Alexei Yagudin landed the quad toe loop in a quad-triple toe loop combination, but not the triple. He also landed a solo quad toe loop.

A total of 20 quads were landed in the event: five in the qualifying rounds, seven in the short program and eight in the free skating.

At Worlds 2002 there were 8 Quads landed in the short program alone, including 2 Quad Salchows. That was the men's competition under 6.0. I think we had about 6 Quads at last Worlds.

And about the creativity part: other guys manage to produce Poeta, Cyber Swan, Ararat, Abbott's Waltz program, all of Chan's programs - and the two guys complaining here have been skating the same to the same music for the last 3 years.

It is said that the winners get to write the history - in this case the non-winners get to give the interviews...

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

John Curry would not do well under CoP because he used small elements as well as big elements in his routines. Nowadays, using small elements to enhance a program seems to be too risky for wasting time which could be better served in line with CoP point system.

 

[Mathman]

About McLaughlin and Brubaker's opinions, and also Weir's, maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. Maybe a sporting event is not the right place to be looking for creativity, originality, artistry, variety, musicality and the like. Maybe those things should be saved for the Exhibitions.

 

[Hsuhs]

There's teleconferences with both Evan and Johnny, on that - everybody knows which - site. Hersh uses those quotes in the 2nd article.

 

[Mathman]

There's teleconferences with both Evan and Johnny, on that - everybody knows which - site.

Icenetwork and Golden Skate -- like the cowboys and the farmers in Oklahoma -- are friends. It is OK to mention and to link to Icenetwork. :yes:

 

[visaliakid]

Icenetwork and Golden Skate -- like the cowboys and the farmers in Oklahoma -- are friends. It is OK to mention and to link to Icenetwork. :yes:

Correct Mathman.. unlike another forum we all know, whose leadership has no love for IN because of IN wishing to protect their product and limited viewership.

 

[Hsuhs]

Icenetwork and Golden Skate -- like the cowboys and the farmers in Oklahoma -- are friends. It is OK to mention and to link to Icenetwork. :yes:

This board's guidelines are like CoP.

 

[Antilles]

I agree that problems, including boring repetition, exist under both systems. I also agree that CoP has hit pairs the worst. There is the previously mentioned problems with death spirals, but don't forget the side-by-side spins. Am I the only one who thinks the most important part of the sbs's should be unison?! There is no such thing as a pairs spin done in unison anymore. I'm glad they had to push themselves beyond just a one-position camel spin, but they've really gone too far in the opposite direction.

Pairs is the the most difficult discipline because there are so many elements to learn. No team is great at all of them. I think they need to change the rules and maybe lose a couple of elements in the FD. Maybe then we'd get better choreography.

And amen to eliminating ugly-but-high-scoring elements in all disciplines. I think CoP has a lot of great qualities, it just needs some work.

 

[psycho]

If I do it here it comes down to this: two guys who maybe in the Top Ten at Worlds - and have been there for half a decade now - but never managed to win more than a Bronze at an important international competition. Those Bronzes they only won when others seriously bombed, dropped out etc. At the important competitions they were always in the background, the stars were Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert, Takahashi and Buttle. And now new stars like Kozuka and Chan are currently there who have zero problems with the new judging system and use it to their advantage.Perhaps there is a certain amount of bitterness involved?

Okay, I'll bite. Lambiel and Joubert have publicly complained about COP, so I guess they are bitter too.
Buttle has never been a "star". He won worlds and skated amazing back to back programs once. Do you remember his season before that? And no wonder he loved COP, his PCS were often as outrageous as his "quad fall" counting as an element.
I don't read Japanese, so I don't know how Takahashi feels about COP.

Kozuka and Chan are comfortable with it because they freaking grew up with this system. People like Joubert and Johnny had to adjust to the new system that was, in many ways, completely different from the one they were brought up in.

And Weir wouldn't have won a single ISU competition under 6.0, because apparently the guy can't land a clean Quad to save his life.

Well, if we look at things this way, neither would Buttle, or Lambiel because Buttle didn't even try to land one, or planned to fall, and Lambiel's skates were so messy and had no 3A that 6.0 judges would not have given it to him either.
I guess Joubert would have won everything because he can occasionally land a quad.

 

[enlight78]

I think we are judging the effects of COp to early. Most of the senoir skaters were taught under the 6.0 system. There hasn't been time for the coaches , choreographers and etc learn what works best and how to manipulate the programs or rules. At this stagse it is mostly watch skater A score high. Okay lets all copy skater A. I think know,not even the creaters have an understanding of the true potential of Cop. One can't really mold and make art with something they truelly don't understand.I say let it grow. See what looks like when the 6.0 generation has retired. The transition stage is always the roughest and worst. Give it time to make mistakes and grow. I'm sorry if some the spelling is off and sentence don't make since. I am very sleepy.

 

[Buttercup]

I think psycho is correct - everyone complains about CoP, because athletes in every sport love to complain about the officiating of their sport. So Johnny comes on to say that quads are overvalued and it's hurting the artistry, while Joubert will tell anyone who'll listen that quads are undervalued and it's ruining the technical progress of figure skating (personally, though I like both skaters, I tend to agree more with Brian).

enlight78 also makes a good point that the transitional years will be toughest, and that most likely the skaters who grew up under CoP know how to work with it, so that in a few years things should look better. I think it's already noticeable in the ice dance, where the younger teams seem to have a much easier time of it.

Correct Mathman.. unlike another forum we all know, whose leadership has no love for IN because of IN wishing to protect their product and limited viewership.

O/T, I don't think most people have an issue with IN protecting their market; what many do take issue with is the occasionally overzealous manner in which they do so, which denies people who can't even get IN access to figure skating. It's gotten to the point that it's very difficult to find footage from the past three seasons online, and this is not doing anything for figure skating's exposure to the public.

 

[gio]

At the important competitions they were always in the background, the stars were Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert

Those three harshly criticized COP too.

 

[antmanb]

Interesting. I have to say that of all the disciplines, I think the NJS has been, ironically, the worst for pairs. It is one I barely enjoy watching anymore. M/B are absolutely right that a lot of the programs look the same (though I would argue that there is still some room for creativity, and the fault for the supreme lack of it in pairs these days does to some extent fall on the skaters as well as the system).

What annoys me are the ugly positions/changes etc. such as the cluttering of the death spiral to the point where teams are getting points for having hideously slow and awful ones — but who can tell because it's not the classic position? Well the judges should, but they're not. There should be a deduction for "ugly" lol.

Yeah don't even get me started on the death spiral. Entering in a shoot the duck is difficult? Since when? Squatting down so you're low to the ice makes the death spiral so much easier so the shoot the duck should be a deduction not an ehancer. And the awful change of hands, the man coming out of the pivot and dragging the lady round like a shopping trolley to eek out one more revolution. Just plane ugly.

Remember Kavarikova and Navotny (sp?) in I thnk 94/95, they did a death spiral clockwise first for one revolution and then did one anti-clockwise for a noumber of revolutions, the first done on one half of the ice and the second done on the other. Beautiful!

Again - for me death spirals, like spins, have been destroyed by all the ridiculous level features. We no longer see simple fast beautiful classic elements anymore. Like we've said time and again - if you want to see those things again then it should be possible to get teh same points doing simple things extremely well (+3 for a fast centred spin in one classic position with loads of revolutions) as it is to do the standard crappy change edge, hokey cockey spins that crawl to a stop, step far out wide to change feet and crawl round some more.

Ant

 

[Hsuhs]

I don't read Japanese, so I don't know how Takahashi feels about COP.

AFAIK, he never complained about CoP. Daisuke loves quads, was planning 3 of them this past pre-season (1 in SP and 2 in LP).
In fact, every time he loses, he blames nobody but himself (one of the million reasons I 'm a fan).

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

This board's guidelines are like CoP.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I think we are judging the effects of COp to early. Most of the senoir skaters were taught under the 6.0 system. There hasn't been time for the coaches , choreographers and etc learn what works best and how to manipulate the programs or rules. At this stagse it is mostly watch skater A score high. Okay lets all copy skater A. I think know,not even the creaters have an understanding of the true potential of Cop. One can't really mold and make art with something they truelly don't understand.I say let it grow. See what looks like when the 6.0 generation has retired. The transition stage is always the roughest and worst. Give it time to make mistakes and grow. I'm sorry if some the spelling is off and sentence don't make since. I am very sleepy.

Agree, but it's been around for a few years now, and there have been several complaints about the system brought out in this forum. Some fans, are overly protective of the CoP while others are just looking to fix some perceived glaring inequities.

What would be so terrible if the ISU were to call a Conference on the Workings of the CoP. The agenda should be all questions raised. If there are no revisions as a result, the fans who love the CoP as it is, should be happy, and the fans who saw all those inequities should remain disgruntled, but at least the matters were taken up. Perhaps the Conference could meet again in 5 years for another go at it.

 

[Medusa]

Those three harshly criticized COP too.

Yes - while they were winning competitions and producing impressive, in Lambiel's case very artistic, programs.

I don't think people should shut up and just skate, they are not machines. But if you, like Lysacek and Weir, are in the top class of male figure skaters for half a decade, and till now didn't manage to have an impressive and convincing outing at Worlds / Olympics / GPF (Lysacek had two Long Program outings that came close in 2006) - I ask myself: What advantage do they get from constantly complaining about the system? In what way does it improve their abilities? Or is it their excuse for their less-than-impressive outings?

If I went to med-school every day with the thought: this is all senseless, each day thousands of people are dying anyway, those few you are going to help some day won't make a difference - I wouldn't get done anything. And if they are on the ice everyday, and thinking constantly how stupid and tiresome everything is - how can that help them in their competitions, in their artistry?

AFAIK, he never complained about CoP. Daisuke loves quads, was planning 3 of them this past pre-season (1 in SP and 2 in LP).
In fact, every time he loses, he blames nobody but himself (one of the million reasons I 'm a fan).

Well, kudos to the Cyber Swan. And he had some beautiful, creative and sometimes artistic programs in the era of COP.

 

[jenaj]

Pairs skating has become unwatchable under COP. If doing tricks is all-important in skating, why not just dispense with the music altogether and have jumping and spinning contests? Part of skating is artistry and COP doesn't leave any room for artistic interpretation. I have yet to read an article where a skater says he or she likes the new system.

 

[Snowgirl]

If I read it correctly, neither Evan nor Johnny blamed the system for their results (and their results are not that bad at all). Or they may express their attitude only after winning Worlds? And it's not like they had never skated impressive programs under COP as well.

 

[Mathman]

I don't think people should shut up and just skate, they are not machines. But if you, like Lysacek and Weir, are in the top class of male figure skaters for half a decade, and till now didn't manage to have an impressive and convincing outing at Worlds / Olympics / GPF (Lysacek had two Long Program outings that came close in 2006) - I ask myself: What advantage do they get from constantly complaining about the system? In what way does it improve their abilities? Or is it their excuse for their less-than-impressive outings?

My impression of Lysacek is that he has his eye on the bottom line. He speaks of the "6.0 brand" and the "quad brand" the way General Motors talks about the Chevrolet Malibu. This is what we are here to sell.

Evan had no problem being marketed as the macho, black-wearing, Tanith-kissing alternative to Johnny's sequins and feathers. He came up with ideas to turn figure skating into an "extreme sport" to attract a younger commercial demographic. As Hirsh points out, in this interview Evan went out of his way to laud Daddy Warbucks sponsors like AT&T.

I don't think that Evan has anything against the new scoring system per se. But I have to agree that the ISU's choice of which errors it will nit-pick on and which it will let go, from one season to the next, or from one contest to the next, is hard to anticipate. Specifically about underrotations, my own personal guess is that the ISU will continue to hammer away at it until next year, then lighten up for the Olympics.