Quad loop a "hip killer"?

[Li'Kitsu]

Who has competed it?

Tara Lipinski-stopped
Adelina Sotnikova-stopped

You already have to differentiate these - Tara stopped because of hip injury, the well known case everyone talks about when discussing the loop. Adelina changed to 3-3T because she thought her chances getting it rotated were better. Not because she has any loop related injuries or problems.

Miki Ando also did it, and from the current juniors Yuna Aoki. Didn't Caroline Zhang land a 3Lo-3Lo too?

Well, I am not so fond of young kids doing zillion quads too, but personally i find it a bit unfair to blame one's injuries solely on quad attempts. Training regimen, techniques, or even differences in body type/genetics etc could play part too.

This. I'm pretty sure a lot of injuries are more related to the general and collective strain all the different FS elements are putting on the body than one single one. We can talk about the quads or loops, but that's only one part of it. Pretty as figure skating looks, it's just a very dangerous sport to begin with.

About the quad loop, for now, realistically speaking currently only Yuzu and Shoma who might likely attempt it in competition (Javi could do a 4Lo too but he said in an interview with TSL (?) he had no plan in including it). Anyone else regularly landing 4Lo?

I think Aliev trained them too? Or someone else at the Aeriel FS Challenge? I can't look it up right now :scratch3:

 

[Marin]

You already have to differentiate these - Tara stopped because of hip injury, the well known case everyone talks about when discussing the loop. Adelina changed to 3-3T because she thought her chances getting it rotated were better. Not because she has any loop related injuries or problems.

Miki Ando also did it, and from the current juniors Yuna Aoki. Didn't Caroline Zhang land a 3Lo-3Lo too?



This. I'm pretty sure a lot of injuries are more related to the general and collective strain all the different FS elements are putting on the body than one single one. We can talk about the quads or loops, but that's only one part of it. Pretty as figure skating looks, it's just a very dangerous sport to begin with.



I think Aliev trained them too? Or someone else at the Aeriel FS Challenge? I can't look it up right now :scratch3:

Dmitri Aliev,Aleksei Krasnozhon, Gordei Gorshkov just tried 2 days ago but it was borderline downgrade and fall.. Samohin is also preparing it. So not just Yuzu and Shoma

 

[largeman]

Perhaps--with all the observers on this board--we could try to put together some stats on the ladies who have trained triple loop combos seriously? More of those have been tried than the quad. Of course, there may be athletes who train a jump sporadically and don't perform it in competition; but we could look at those athletes who have competed a triple loop combo, and therefore, one assumes, trained it seriously.

Who has competed it?

Tara Lipinski-stopped
Mao Asada-still does it
Marin Honda (first part of her combo last season)-may have stopped
Adelina Sotnikova-stopped
Ye Lim Kim-only 13, still does it
Yuna Shiraiwa-last season was her first season on the JGP & she competed it then; I'm not sure if she is competing it this season yet

Who else?

I read on a post somewhere that one of the Japanese junior ladies had removed the loop from her combo this season because the combo was bothering her hip, but I do not remember which athlete. (Maybe Marin. She didn't attempt it at the Asian Open. I'm not sure if her combo would be considered relevant as she did the loop first rather than as the second jump).

Some notable ones from 2015-2016 season:
Wakaba Higuchi: 3Lz+3Lo 11.10 +1.20 = 12.30 https://youtu.be/wFVDnlvLZig?t=4m44s (as far as I know, she is no longer doing it in the upcoming season)
Na Hyun Kim: 3Lo+3Lo 10.20 +0.50 = 10.70 https://youtu.be/qUloIxxzfw4?t=4m11s
Yuna Shiraiwa: 3S+3Lo 9.50 +1.00 = 10.50 https://youtu.be/3oHY5gRXTxU?t=5m1s
And, Yuna Aoki - Sam did a whole jumpamatron on her 3Lz+3Lo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-qEQaCiCKI

 

[Ice Dance]

Yes, we should differentiate. Sorry that I cannot remember which Japanese girl it was in the post I read. I tried to find it but no luck, and of course, I cannot be certain if it was accurate. Perhaps someone else will know. The explanation about Marin makes sense. Maybe it was Higuchi, but I really don't remember.

Updating:

Tara Lipinski-stopped
Mao Asada-still does it
Marin Honda (first part of her combo last season)-may have stopped
Adelina Sotnikova-stopped due to consistency
Ye Lim Kim-only 13, still does it
Yuna Shiraiwa-last season was her first season on the JGP & she competed it then; I'm not sure if she is competing it this season yet
Miki Ando-Did she continue competing it or stop?
Yuna Aoki-Performed it on the JGP last season.
Wakaba Higuchi-Performed it on the JGP last season. Appears to have stopped.
Ha Nul Kim-Performed it on the JGP last season.
Caroline Zhang?-Would someone like to confirm or deny?

Who else?

 

[eppen]

Dmitri Aliev,Aleksei Krasnozhon, Gordei Gorshkov just tried 2 days ago but it was borderline downgrade and fall.. Samohin is also preparing it. So not just Yuzu and Shoma

And Javier Fernández btw this summer - it was in a show finale (and he apparently does not even practice it very much!). Samohin I saw trying 4Los in practice sessions at the Europeans - I was not really paying that much attention at first, but after several tries landing right in front of my seat I finally realized what he was doing Fairly good attempts, but none clean as far as I remember.

Michelle Kwan said in the TSL interview that the loop was her hardest jump and that might be why she dropped it in the end.

I have a gut feeling from the late 1990s/early 2000s that surprisingly many top skaters went through tough physical problems and that was the time when quads did their first big entry for guys and 3-3 combos became a norm for women. But am not at all sure whether that would hold in comparison with real numbers, because we know so little about reasons behind decisions to stop doing jumps, retiring etc.

e

 

[largeman]

Who else?

Here's a full list from skatedb: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=element&element=+3Lo&orderby=p500&cid=538

This is for the 2015-16 season.. you can repeat the search for other past seasons by selecting from the drop-down menu.

 

[mcq]

Here's a full list from skatedb: http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=element&element=+3Lo&orderby=p500&cid=538

This is for the 2015-16 season.. you can repeat the search for other past seasons by selecting from the drop-down menu.

Thanks! I found out you can change the drop down to ----- and it will include the men too, as well all from all seasons :agree:
http://skatedb.net/modules/skateDB/index.php?page=element&element=%2B3Lo&orderby=p500&cid=0

 

[trains]

Hip killer may refer to the falls you take when learning and training loops. That can be from single right on up to quad. When you haven't mastered the jump you can slip off the take off edge before you even get off the ice and fall really hard on the take off side hip. And I mean hard. Your foot slides right out from underneath you and you go down on the side of your hip.
Plus practising loops is all work on one foot. A practice session working on loops is very fatiguing on the take off/landing leg, hip and side, not to mention those falls.

 

[karne]

Dmitri Aliev,Aleksei Krasnozhon, Gordei Gorshkov just tried 2 days ago but it was borderline downgrade and fall.. Samohin is also preparing it. So not just Yuzu and Shoma

Adding: Max Aaron has landed them in training and reportedly also at an SOI show in 2014. Artur Gachinski was another with the 4Lo in practice.

The loop doesn't need to be a quad loop to be a hip killer. When you're concentrating the takeoff and landing and everything is through one hip, it's gonna hurt and can do some damage.

 

[gkelly]

I think the triple loop is considered a hip-killer, for women, especially over the course of a long career.

And especially when used as the second jump in a combination.

I think it's not so much the normal takeoff as the process of landing with the free foot in front instead of checking backward, so not much of the downward momentum from the first jump is converted into horizontal motion but rather into twisting in place to get up for the second (loop) jump.

There can be a number of different causes of different kinds of hip injuries, and more than one may be specifically associated with training loop jumps. But I do think the twisting-while-landing motion of something-triple loop combinations is likely the biggest culprit.

BTW, Tim Goebel also had a hip injury in 1997-98 that caused him to withdraw from 1998 Junior Worlds (after the qual round?) and 1998 US Nationals (after the SP?). He had been doing 3Lo+3Lo the previous season, and he had been working on quad salchows, so I don't know if either of those was more responsible for the injury than the other.

He did go on to land the first successful quad sal at the (first) JGP Final that spring.

Yes, at that time Jr. Worlds was in December and JGP final was in April, many months after the initial JGP events. I wondered how many juniors who qualified for the early spring final based on late-summer competitions had outgrown their costumes or lost their jumps to growth spurts in the interim.

 

[mrrice]

Hip killer may refer to the falls you take when learning and training loops. That can be from single right on up to quad. When you haven't mastered the jump you can slip off the take off edge before you even get off the ice and fall really hard on the take off side hip. And I mean hard. Your foot slides right out from underneath you and you go down on the side of your hip.
Plus practising loops is all work on one foot. A practice session working on loops is very fatiguing on the take off/landing leg, hip and side, not to mention those falls.

This is exactly what happened to me when I was training Salchow's. The best way I can describe it would be to say that I would freak out during the set up and "Pop" it. When that happens, your whole body tenses up and when you hit the ice you're almost in a lunge and you're body can't absorb the impact like a relaxed body. This popped my hip flexor and tore my groin and was extremely painful. Kind of like this....

https://dancingwithlisaandsilke.files.wordpress.com/2014/05/51.png

 

[Ice Dance]

I went through the database for the ladies who did triple loop as the second part of their combo. (Removed Marin from the list since she only did it as the first part). A couple of the names were written in another language so I used Google translate. My apologies if it translated incorrectly. The database only went back as far as the 2005-2006 season.

Updating:

Tara Lipinski-stopped
Mao Asada-still does it
Adelina Sotnikova-stopped due to consistency
Ye Lim Kim-only 13, still does it
Yuna Shiraiwa-last season was her first season on the JGP & she competed it then; I'm not sure if she is competing it this season yet
Miki Ando-Did she continue competing it or stop?
Yuna Aoki-Performed it on the JGP last season.
Wakaba Higuchi-Performed it on the JGP last season. Appears to have stopped.
Ha Nul Kim-Performed it on the JGP last season.
Caroline Zhang-Had hip surgery
Yura Matsuda-competed it last season
Kailani Craine-competed it last season on JGP
Na Hyun Kim-competed it last season
Samantha Cesario
Laurine Lecavelier-only competed it once over a year ago/underrotated
Rika Oya (translated)
Iwano Momoa (translated)-competed it last season
Ji Hyun Byun-competed it last season
Nadia Ogoreltseva
Polina Shelepen
Courtney Hicks (she appears to have stopped doing it, last competed 2010-2011)
Amelie Lacoste
Hae Jin Kim
Kristina Zaseeva
Miyabi Oba
Rachael Flatt (last recorded as competing it in 2010)
Ashley Wagner-stopped-last recorded as competing it in 2008
Mira Leung
Idora Hegel


If anyone knows whether any more of the above athletes had hip problems, let us know and I will update the list. If I remember correctly, Idora, Mira, Miyabi, Kristina, Hae Jin, Amelie, Ji Hyun, and Rika Oya, and Iwano are all listed as only competing the combination once thus far.

 

[Sam-Skwantch]

^Very nice work!! :impressed:

I did a jumpamatron of Yuna Aoki's 3z-3lo a while back that includes some zoom and slow motion of the jump if anyone is interested.

https://youtu.be/P-qEQaCiCKI

 

[Ice Dance]

Edited the list above to include Na Hyun Kim.

 

[LiamForeman]

KABOOM......................Yes!!!!!! After Jennifer. I am loyal to Plushy!! However, I have winked at Patrick and Todd Eldredge on more than one occasion. :agree:

Say it ain't so! NO way way could JSlo be your first Canadian wife! I love JoRo! Or even JoChui! Not JSlo.. She was pretty, but skating wise,,,,,, neh.

 

[4everchan]

Josée

Say it ain't so! NO way way could JSlo be your first Canadian wife! I love JoRo! Or even JoChui! Not JSlo.. She was pretty, but skating wise,,,,,, neh.

 

[mrrice]

Say it ain't so! NO way way could JSlo be your first Canadian wife! I love JoRo! Or even JoChui! Not JSlo.. She was pretty, but skating wise,,,,,, neh.

Do you guys really call Jennifer Robinson J-Slo? You guys are so mean!!!! I tell you what, standing still, Jenn beats them all . Josee, was certainly very pretty and she had only one problem in my eyes. It was the same problem most skaters had from 1992 until today. My first Wife, Maria Butyrkaya.

 

[Arriba627]

Posted to Yuzuru's thread today - practicing the quad loop.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BJVefq2jlg1/

ETA - darn, looks like it's been blocked now. Anyway, it was a good, powerful quad loop.

 

[Mango]

I guess we'll be hearing a lot of feedback about the 4Lo now that it's confirmed that Yuzuru is doing it.

 

[bibi1899]

I guess we'll be hearing a lot of feedback about the 4Lo now that it's confirmed that Yuzuru is doing it.

Comfirmed what? Lots of skater practice it, I don't know what u mean here