Questions about ice dance from a new viewer

[vitamintea]

I've watched figure skating on and off for the past 5 years or so, but this year was my first time watching all the events carefully from start to finish and I've really enjoyed watching ice dancing for the quality of the skating. However, whereas in men's or ladies' singles and you have elements with scores and I've kind of learned the "eye test" for who has good skating skills or not, when it comes to ice dance I feel as though I'm not watching for the right things. So I wanted to ask a few questions (and follow up with more) as I learn to watch ice dance:

1) I really liked Papadakis and Cizeron after seeing their free skate at the Olympics, and I was watching some other versions of their FS. One of the commentators (don't remember which competition, maybe GPF?) commented that they had this charm and aura that other teams sought to emulate but couldn't. Are there other dancers who have borrowed that style?

2) How are the lifts scored? P/C have a simple curve lift at the beginning of their program that always gets level 4s and top GOEs but it's not very complex or acrobatic compared to other pairs. Why is it they get higher points?

3) Why do so many step sequences get downgraded to level 3s or 4s? I feel like that happens less in the final groups for mens/ladies.

4) What is it about P/C that allowed the British Eurosport commentators to say gold at this last worlds was definitely theirs to lose? I watched the last group in a row and I thought their performance was absolutely amazing, but I don't know if I have the eye for what makes them stand out so clearly above the other teams. For example, I thought Piper/Gilles had a really charming James Bond program and the Chock/Bates Imagine program was pretty boring, so I want to know what I should be watching for in terms of performance.

I'm so sorry to ask so many questions, but I'm just now discovering how great the performances are and I want to learn more. Thanks in advance for answers/discussion!

 

[gkelly]

I'll leave the discussion to others.

You might find it helpful to look at some of the documents officials rely on in scoring program components or calling levels.

 

[Anyasnake]

1)Too many dance teams have tried the lyrical/moody program after 2015, obviously not as successful, and now ISU is not happy and wants upbeat programs for next season.

2)You have levels for lifts from 1 to 4, the base value of level4 is 4.50, the maximum GOE you can get for a lift is +1.80.
Level 4 is acquired if you have things like : holding one position + difficult entry + difficult exit or 2 different positions + 1 difficult exit, etc. You have several group lifts.
For that particular lift, she jumps by turning to face him, hold a position but her arms are free she is not holding him, he is holding her but with one arm, and the exit is one turn and one foot from her, thus level 4. For more precision you'd have to read the ISU rule book
GOEs are for execution, and when it's perfectly executed, you have your points.

3)There is no more than level 4 Step sequences in Ice Dance and it's a nightmare to get it. Every turns has to be clean, and not just "clean" : correct edge on the first part, no snow before turning, correct edge after the turn, you cannot "cheat" : don't "jump" your turns, don't cheat by switching edges by making it easier. This are details that Technical Specialists are trained to see in real time. As casual viewer we prefer to focus on the whole dance, because ain't nobody got time for that

4)They scored the biggest scores all season, improving every single time. I don't know if it was theirs to lose, but their were fractionnal favourite.
What makes them stand out so much is the seamlessness, they make a step sequence level 4 look so easy and get all the points. They don't rely on acrobatic lifts or "highlights" in the program to make you go "wow", but focus on the dance part of it making a cohesive program instead of a series of executed elements.

Well what you say about the Chock/Bates program : after rewatching it, I thought they were massively underscored compared to some other teams that got higher scores. Chock/Bates never skated that well and what I'm saying about step sequences and levels : somehow they got only level 3s, but they were never cleaner, of course it's my opinion.
Piper&Paul were scored very well and had an outstanding routine though.
In terms of performance it's absolutely subjective : when you score a team, if they executed well etc, you have to give them the points. However what you prefer is absolutely up to you and your taste.

Hope that answer your questions a little bit :agree:
(PS : Ice Dance is the best discipline )

 

[vitamintea]

Thank you so much for the responses! I'm definitely going to give the guide a read There's so much I was learning as I was seeing the scores come up. Serpentine step?

As to your point about acrobatics, does ice dance as a discipline try to encourage complicated lifts? Because V/M have their lift where she jumps into his head, and other pairs have complicated moves where someone is upside down, or skimming on the ice, etc. But if P/C can get maximum points with simple lifts why don't more teams do that instead of risking a bad performance?

 

[Anyasnake]

Thank you so much for the responses! I'm definitely going to give the guide a read There's so much I was learning as I was seeing the scores come up. Serpentine step?

As to your point about acrobatics, does ice dance as a discipline try to encourage complicated lifts? Because V/M have their lift where she jumps into his head, and other pairs have complicated moves where someone is upside down, or skimming on the ice, etc. But if P/C can get maximum points with simple lifts why don't more teams do that instead of risking a bad performance?

Wooow, good luck if you read the guide, you are very brave, I don't know if I have the patience for that... it's so long ! :noshake:
Serpentine step : step sequence covering the rink in shape of an "S". This is Hubbell/Donohue first step sequence in their Free Dance this year : https://youtu.be/8qYw9uoaYaQ?t=70

Ice Dance differentiate itself from pairs by the lifts, you cannot lift above the shoulder, and this lift is the closest I've seen from the limit : https://youtu.be/XDYRNvECHFE?t=55
Acrobatics are not required at all, but it can make a highlight into a program. Proof is, you remember V/M's lift.
I think they encourage every single type of lifts, to avoid repetition.
For many many years it was all about athletics and acrobatic lifts, these years, there is a change because it's just evolution of Ice Dance, it changes from time to time. Remember though that difficult entry and exit are part of the lift itself and that one lift can look very simple, yet before and after can be very tricky (hence level 4).
Of course because a lift looks easy doesn't mean it is. However, execution is so important. I've seen many teams doing what we'd call "simple" lifts that don't look as polished, seamless, well-executed as this. And I've seen many teams doing acrobatics that looked out of place and very misplaced.

And I forget to mention it but a lift for a lift (acrobatic or not) might be okay, but a lift perfectly timed to the music, before, during and after, will make a highlight and get you the GOEs because it is a requirement for a +3.

 

[ladyjane]

I am not so good an observer as Anyasnake (appreciated those answers very much because they make so many things clear), but to me the P/C curve lift isn't simple at all, it just looks like it is. And that actually is why they're so good in all: they make everything seem so simple. Beautiful step sequences, good twizzles, superb edges but one doesn't think it's difficult. Let me tell you: it is! Why do otherwise good couples sometimes stumble and even fall? Nerves, yes, but also because it is difficult to do. While with P/C you always just get into the dance they are showing - and the difficulties seem totally effortless.

I loved that lift especially because it seemed to be so simple. Others have tried to copy it, and then it often did become simple (still difficult for me to envisage doing, but that's a totally different story), because those superior entrances, holds and exits are forgotten in the maelstrom of the total experience. If you just copy the lift itself, you're not 'getting' what P/C are doing. As for acrobatic lifts, I usually enjoy seeing the sometimes strange postures and holds ice dance teams include in their lifts to make them seem difficult (and sometimes they really are) but never acrobatic. Acrobatics are forbidden in pairs (although a well executed twist lift seems pretty acrobatic [and o so beautiful] to me) and in dance this rule applies even more so. A lift may seem to be acrobatic, but it won't be in reality. And the lady may not be lifted above the head in dance, so one has to find a way to do difficult things in lifts without that. I've also seen many lifts that really aren't that beautiful in execution, but are complicated just to pick up the points. Give me a 'simple' lift with a superb entrance, hold and exit any day! And I think the reason not many others try to do it that way is exactly because of those other items that count.

 

[gmyers]

1)Too many dance teams have tried the lyrical/moody program after 2015, obviously not as successful, and now ISU is not happy and wants upbeat programs for next season.

2)You have levels for lifts from 1 to 4, the base value of level4 is 4.50, the maximum GOE you can get for a lift is +1.80.
Level 4 is acquired if you have things like : holding one position + difficult entry + difficult exit or 2 different positions + 1 difficult exit, etc. You have several group lifts.
For that particular lift, she jumps by turning to face him, hold a position but her arms are free she is not holding him, he is holding her but with one arm, and the exit is one turn and one foot from her, thus level 4. For more precision you'd have to read the ISU rule book
GOEs are for execution, and when it's perfectly executed, you have your points.

3)There is no more than level 4 Step sequences in Ice Dance and it's a nightmare to get it. Every turns has to be clean, and not just "clean" : correct edge on the first part, no snow before turning, correct edge after the turn, you cannot "cheat" : don't "jump" your turns, don't cheat by switching edges by making it easier. This are details that Technical Specialists are trained to see in real time. As casual viewer we prefer to focus on the whole dance, because ain't nobody got time for that

4)They scored the biggest scores all season, improving every single time. I don't know if it was theirs to lose, but their were fractionnal favourite.
What makes them stand out so much is the seamlessness, they make a step sequence level 4 look so easy and get all the points. They don't rely on acrobatic lifts or "highlights" in the program to make you go "wow", but focus on the dance part of it making a cohesive program instead of a series of executed elements.

Well what you say about the Chock/Bates program : after rewatching it, I thought they were massively underscored compared to some other teams that got higher scores. Chock/Bates never skated that well and what I'm saying about step sequences and levels : somehow they got only level 3s, but they were never cleaner, of course it's my opinion.
Piper&Paul were scored very well and had an outstanding routine though.
In terms of performance it's absolutely subjective : when you score a team, if they executed well etc, you have to give them the points. However what you prefer is absolutely up to you and your taste.

Hope that answer your questions a little bit :agree:
(PS : Ice Dance is the best discipline )

They all said they don’t want just upbeat. They want programs that are more than just element after element. Then any program that conveys any mood whatsoever can get the bonus. People are saying it’s easier to be entertaining and get crowd support if a program is upbeat but P/c have never done an upbeat free dance and get tons of loud applause and crowd love and everyone calls them engaging or entertaining. Moulin rouge also not upbeat.

 

[draqq]

Anyasnake and other posters pretty much answered your questions, so I'll just say that what you're looking for in ice dance is just quality, which boils down to having deep and smooth edges, close holds, speed and ice coverage of every element, and seamlessness. For instance, P/C's first lift is just complex enough to reach Level 4 but it's the distance they cover and the (seemingly) effortless execution of it that gives them the high GOEs across the board.

Then one step higher, you're looking for complex holds (few crossovers and tight, closed holds), stretched lines, unison, full body movement with the hands, legs, and core, and precise timing and emphasis with the beat and phrasing of the music.

One note: Step sequence levels, to me, can seem rather random at times. I know that the technical panel is trained to see every edge change and hold change, but there are times when I've felt like a step sequence should have been a Level 3 but was given a Level 4, or a Level 4 but given a Level 3. And don't even get me started on the key points in the original dance which can come down to whether the technical specialist believes an edge was flat for a tenth of a second or whatever.

I'll just come out and say that I suspect that the technical panel places skaters in a pecking order mainly by giving Level 3s and 4s however they feel like, and I wish the ISU was more transparent about how the technical panel comes to their conclusion on a step sequence.

 

[Sophie-Anna]

About what makes them stand out:
I don't understand ice dance technique well, but I watched all practices in the main arena during the Europeans 2017. And just watching their crossovers at the beginning of the practice, I could see their skating and gliding are amazing and above the rest of the field. I don't know about the North American couples, though, I have never seen them live. I would say that Tessa and Scott's skating quality is also extraordinary.