Random Figure Skating Questions

[knghcm]

I have two questions:

1) I notice a lot of the non-English speaking commentators refer to jumps phonetically, like these Italian commentators here and they way they pronounce jumps like "triple toe loop". I notice that for some Japanese commentators too; I was watching one commentated by a few Japanese (can't find the link right now) and the way they pronounced "step sequence" made me lol. I wonder why that is the case.

2) How are Grand Prix finalists selected? This wiki page explains it somewhat, and mentions that the selection process changes slightly from year to year. Does anyone have any link where this is explained in more details, or the selection criteria for this season's grand prix final?

 

[Mrs. P]

I have two questions:

1) I notice a lot of the non-English speaking commentators refer to jumps phonetically, like these Italian commentators here and they way they pronounce jumps like "triple toe loop". I notice that for some Japanese commentators too; I was watching one commentated by a few Japanese (can't find the link right now) and the way they pronounced "step sequence" made me lol. I wonder why that is the case.

2) How are Grand Prix finalists selected? This wiki page explains it somewhat, and mentions that the selection process changes slightly from year to year. Does anyone have any link where this is explained in more details, or the selection criteria for this season's grand prix final?

1.) Most skating terms aren't translated from English. So what happens is that the terms are likely transliterated, i.e. the English words are put into the Japanese and/or Italian script. The same goes for skaters names. So instead of "Jason Brown" on Japanese TV you'll see "ジェイソン・ブラウン" Like in this piece about the U.S. Figure Skating Championships (http://www.jsports.co.jp/press/article/N2015020215224006.html). So the words are pronounced by the Japanese script, rather than English, so the pronunciation sounds quite different.

2.) Detailed info on the criteria can be found in this ISU Announcement (http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/156242/gp-general-announcement-2014_15_final.pdf)

See Section 4, Points/Ranking Order.

 

[knghcm]

1.) Most skating terms aren't translated from English. So what happens is that the terms are likely transliterated, i.e. the English words are put into the Japanese and/or Italian script. The same goes for skaters names. So instead of "Jason Brown" on Japanese TV you'll see "ジェイソン・ブラウン" Like in this piece about the U.S. Figure Skating Championships (http://www.jsports.co.jp/press/article/N2015020215224006.html). So the words are pronounced by the Japanese script, rather than English, so the pronunciation sounds quite different.

2.) Detailed info on the criteria can be found in this ISU Announcement (http://isuprod.blob.core.windows.net/media/156242/gp-general-announcement-2014_15_final.pdf)

See Section 4, Points/Ranking Order.

So were the terms originated from English? I guess they got popularized by English commentators and adopted by other commentators. I'm having a hard time imagining a Russian coach teaching his/her students and use terms like "triple toe loop", regardless of how it is pronounced. Or perhaps I'm underestimating the prevalence of English terms in the sport.

 

[Pippuripihvi]

Could some of our native Russian speakers tell me which syllable is emphasized in each skaters name so I know how to pronounce them (especially the names with O's. I realized during the Olympics that I was pronouncing Voloshozar and Sotnikova all wrong. Can you help me out with some of the others? Thanks!

Bad news here- there are no rules and stress can fall on any syllable of the word! In most cases it's defined by the stress of a noun from which the surname originated. But there are some exceptions as we'll.

Some names:
Sotnikova
Volosozhar
Leonova
Pogorilaya
Sahanovich
Bazarova
Stolbova
Klimov

Can't remember any more with o's

 

[peg]

Bad news here- there are no rules and stress can fall on any syllable of the word! In most cases it's defined by the stress of a noun from which the surname originated. But there are some exceptions as we'll.

Some names:
Sotnikova
Volosozhar
Leonova
Pogorilaya
Sahanovich
Bazarova
Stolbova
Klimov

Can't remember any more with o's

Thanks! I won't say how many (or how few) I got right on my own
And yeah, I knew there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to which syllable is stressed (I think English is like that too) but I do know enough Russian to know that the pronunciation of 'o' changes depending on whether it's stressed, unstressed immediately before the stressed syllable, or just unstressed elsewhere.

How about
Radionova
Voronov
Kovtun
Smirnov (I think the stress is on the last syllable, but not 100% sure)
Morozov (English people pronounce both o's as 'o', so I'm not sure which one is the right one to stress - plus you really can't rely on English commentators pronunciation of any Russian names )

And even though they don't have o's, how about
Lipnitskaya
Tuktamysheva
Medvedeva

 

[Meoima]

Randy Gardner was about 10 cm taller than Tai Babilonia (1979 world champions). Their coach John Nicks had to come up with ways to work around it. For that matter, I'm not sure how much taller Nicks was than his sister back in the 1950s.

The brother and sister team of Danielle and Steve Hartsell had about a 12 cm gap. Plus, she had an ample figure for a pairs skater. They won the 1999 U.S. title.

http://www.catslair.com/skating/2001/nationals/pics/sr/pairs/Hartsell1.jpg

Thank you, so 10-12 cm apart is still possible for Pair!

 

[peg]

Oh, and one more quick question about Russian names. How come Ilinykh and Volosozhar don't follow the normal Slavic tradition of a feminine ending? Sakhanovich too, for that matter?

 

[ice coverage]

So were the terms originated from English? I guess they got popularized by English commentators and adopted by other commentators. I'm having a hard time imagining a Russian coach teaching his/her students and use terms like "triple toe loop", regardless of how it is pronounced. Or perhaps I'm underestimating the prevalence of English terms in the sport.

Russians do transliterate "toe loop."

They say, "Tройной тулуп" for triple toe loop.

And тулуп is pronounced "tooloop" -- a transliteration of toe loop.

 

[Pippuripihvi]

Oh, and one more quick question about Russian names. How come Ilinykh and Volosozhar don't follow the normal Slavic tradition of a feminine ending? Sakhanovich too, for that matter?

Feminine ending is applied only to names having certain endings (-ov, -ev, -in, -skiy). If the name's ending is different, then a feminine ending is not applied. And the ending would be different in many cases because there are more than 200 ethnicities in Russia and some of them have names specific to them. Plus, the influence of geography and politics over the centuries.

Thanks! I won't say how many (or how few) I got right on my own
And yeah, I knew there didn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to which syllable is stressed (I think English is like that too) but I do know enough Russian to know that the pronunciation of 'o' changes depending on whether it's stressed, unstressed immediately before the stressed syllable, or just unstressed elsewhere.

How about
Radionova
Voronov
Kovtun
Smirnov (I think the stress is on the last syllable, but not 100% sure)
Morozov (English people pronounce both o's as 'o', so I'm not sure which one is the right one to stress - plus you really can't rely on English commentators pronunciation of any Russian names )

And even though they don't have o's, how about
Lipnitskaya
Tuktamysheva
Medvedeva

Actually, names in Russian are among few words where you can predict the stress. It depends on the noun that was used to make a name. The stress in the name stays the same as in the noun that it was derived from. But the bad thing is that sometimes you don't know the original noun

Radionova - from the name Rodion written with mistake
Voronov - from the word Voron (crow)
Kovtun (although with this one the stress will depend on the origins of his name, have no idea what it means)
Smirnov
Morozov - from the word Moroz (frost)
Lipnitskaya
Tuktamysheva
Medvedeva - from the word Medved (bear)

 

[peg]

Feminine ending is applied only to names having certain endings (-ov, -ev, -in, -skiy). If the name's ending is different, then a feminine ending is not applied. And the ending would be different in many cases because there are more than 200 ethnicities in Russia and some of them have names specific to them. Plus, the influence of geography and politics over the centuries.

Interesting. My mother tongue is Czech, and we'll throw a feminine ending n any name, even a foreign one. Apparently one time an American singer was to perform in Prague, and got quite angry that an "ova" ending had been added to her name

Actually, names in Russian are among few words where you can predict the stress. It depends on the noun that was used to make a name. The stress in the name stays the same as in the noun that it was derived from. But the bad thing is that sometimes you don't know the original noun

But for that to work, you need to know a) the noun the name came from and b) which syllable in the noun is stressed. For those of us with very little Russian knowledge, that's no easier than figuring the stresses in the names And what makes it worse for me is that sometimes Czech has the same or very similar word, but the stress is always on the first syllable. For example, the Czech word for bear is also medved, but the stress is on the first syllable

Radionova - from the name Rodion written with mistake
Voronov - from the word Voron (crow)
Kovtun (although with this one the stress will depend on the origins of his name, have no idea what it means)
Smirnov
Morozov - from the word Moroz (frost)
Lipnitskaya
Tuktamysheva
Medvedeva - from the word Medved (bear)

Thank you!!!

 

[surimi]

[...] and we'll throw a feminine ending n any name, even a foreign one.

... And what many offended folk forget is that the motivation for that is purely linguistic. The surname must be able to take declension endings, and imagine how angry the offended folk would be if their surnames' declensions were those of a masculine gender. And if adding -ova to foreign surnames was banned, I bet it would be the foreign men who'd feel discriminated against, as their surnames would be changed by case endings while the female ones would not. Pointless issue to fuss about IMO. As long as noone directly addresses the foreign lady using her surname+ova, I don't see why it should disturb them. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if my surname received a '-san' or whatever in Japanese. Ahem. Sorry for getting off-topic...

 

[peg]

... And what many offended folk forget is that the motivation for that is purely linguistic. The surname must be able to take declension endings, and imagine how angry the offended folk would be if their surnames' declensions were those of a masculine gender. And if adding -ova to foreign surnames was banned, I bet it would be the foreign men who'd feel discriminated against, as their surnames would be changed by case endings while the female ones would not. Pointless issue to fuss about IMO. As long as noone directly addresses the foreign lady using her surname+ova, I don't see why it should disturb them. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if my surname received a '-san' or whatever in Japanese. Ahem. Sorry for getting off-topic...

I think the people who get offended just don't know enough about the language to realize that the motivation is actually respectful. I don't think they would even realize that any declensions of their name would then be masculine. It certainly helps make life easier if you know a little bit about various languages - you don't waste as much energy on unnecessary anger

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Interesting. My mother tongue is Czech, and we'll throw a feminine ending n any name, even a foreign one. Apparently one time an American singer was to perform in Prague, and got quite angry that an "ova" ending had been added to her name

... And what many offended folk forget is that the motivation for that is purely linguistic. The surname must be able to take declension endings, and imagine how angry the offended folk would be if their surnames' declensions were those of a masculine gender. And if adding -ova to foreign surnames was banned, I bet it would be the foreign men who'd feel discriminated against, as their surnames would be changed by case endings while the female ones would not. Pointless issue to fuss about IMO. As long as noone directly addresses the foreign lady using her surname+ova, I don't see why it should disturb them. I wouldn't bat an eyelid if my surname received a '-san' or whatever in Japanese. Ahem. Sorry for getting off-topic...

I think the people who get offended just don't know enough about the language to realize that the motivation is actually respectful. I don't think they would even realize that any declensions of their name would then be masculine. It certainly helps make life easier if you know a little bit about various languages - you don't waste as much energy on unnecessary anger

I agree with both of you on this one.

In the Mrs. P Baby thread, I mentioned that I liked the way that the Spanish and Portuguese naming customs involve using the surnames of both the mother and father, albeit in different orders.

But, I have also always liked the Slavik custom of having male and female versions of names.

As you may have picked up, I am a big fan of motorbike racing. Road racing (i.e. racing on closed public roads) is practically the national sport here, and is also popular in the Czech Republic. So, a lot of Irish riders go out to the Czech Republic and do races out there, while some Czech riders come over to Ireland to race.

There are quite a few female racers in the Czech Republic (more than in Ireland!) And when I'm looking at results sheets from the Czech races, I always find it very interesting to see how the girls are getting on. When you are looking at names from an unfamiliar language, it is not always easy to distinguish between male names from female names. But having the "-ova" suffix makes it a whole lot easier!

I have often thought that if I ever have children, I would like to combine the Spanish and Slavik customs. But, then it gets complicated.

If you feminise both surnames, that would seem like overkill.

So, if you only feminise one surname, which would it be? The Mum's would be the obvious choice (seeing as she is female!), but it is often dropped in informal settings to prevent the name becoming a mouthfull. So, you are back at square one. Therefore, it would make more sense to feminise the Dad's surname, but then it would seem weird to have the male parent's surname feminised, but not the female parent's surname.

So, I have concluded that this course of action wouldn't work!

As for the Japanese custom of adding the "-san" (formal) or "-chan" (informal) suffix when referring to somebody, I have never had a problem with Japanese people applying that to non-Japanese people. It is part of their culture, something that they do automatically without thinking. And I would imagine that it is the same with a Czech person adding the "-ova" suffix to a female's surname. Put it like this: if I were female, I wouldn't have a problem with a Czech person doing it to my name.

That said, I have read some nightmare stories about Czech girls who have married foreign guys, and officials in countries that do not feminise names not being able to understand why their surnames are spelt differently, and making a big deal out of it. Or, if the couple have a daughter, officials not understanding why the daughter's surname is not exactly the same as her Dad's or her brother's.

It can turn into a real minefield.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[surimi]

I agree with you two. Re. the last point you make, Caro_Liza, it's true it can be a problem; but no greater problem, surely, than when a married couple agree to keep their original surnames. OK, shutting up now, since I've really gone off-topic now, but I'll happily continue this via PMs if anyone is interested.

 

[peg]

There are quite a few female racers in the Czech Republic (more than in Ireland!) And when I'm looking at results sheets from the Czech races, I always find it very interesting to see how the girls are getting on. When you are looking at names from an unfamiliar language, it is not always easy to distinguish between male names from female names. But having the "-ova" suffix makes it a whole lot easier!

IIRC, women's surnames in Czech always end in the letter A. (At least, I can't think of any that don't). So the only time it could get confusing is if the male version ends in A, like Brezina. But in that case the female version is Brezinova. (Of course, it's far less confusing to a native Czech speaker. To my ear, Brezina simply does not sound female, so even if I only saw the male version, I would recognize it as such. And this is coming from someone who left the Czech Republic at the age of three - over 45 years ago. But it's just not a feminine name despite the A ending, trust me)

I have often thought that if I ever have children, I would like to combine the Spanish and Slavik customs. But, then it gets complicated.

If you feminise both surnames, that would seem like overkill.

So, if you only feminise one surname, which would it be? The Mum's would be the obvious choice (seeing as she is female!), but it is often dropped in informal settings to prevent the name becoming a mouthfull. So, you are back at square one. Therefore, it would make more sense to feminise the Dad's surname, but then it would seem weird to have the male parent's surname feminised, but not the female parent's surname.

As Surimi noted, the feminine endings are required for declension. So you would feminize whichever name came last. But only if it was a woman. For a guy, you would never feminize either one.

That said, I have read some nightmare stories about Czech girls who have married foreign guys, and officials in countries that do not feminise names not being able to understand why their surnames are spelt differently, and making a big deal out of it. Or, if the couple have a daughter, officials not understanding why the daughter's surname is not exactly the same as her Dad's or her brother's.

When we came to Canada, this was indeed problematic. My older brother was registered for kindergarten using the masculine version of our surname. But then my mother filled out out some paperwork with her proper feminine version of said surname, and the school proceeded to attach the feminine version to my brother's name. We resolved this linguistic shortcoming of the English language by simply all using the masculine version. Since there are no declensions in either English or French, it was the most practical solution. Of course, as a result, the surname name on my birth certificate does not match the surname on any of my other documentation

 

[CaroLiza_fan]

Thank you, peg. I didn't realise that you have lived most of your life in Canada. So you definitely know what it is like to be in the situation I described!

But, does it not get even more complicated when the name on your birth certificate doesn't match the name on the other documentation?

Your comment about Michal Brezina reminded me of another example of the masculaine form of a name that ends in "a", and how it is feminised.

Former MotoGP World Champion Casey Stoner married a girl who was born in Australia, but whose family was originally from Slovakia. Before they got married, Adriana used the masculine form of her maiden name, Tuchyna. But, despite this, the Czech and Slovak press always referred to her by the feminine form, "Tuchynova". However, since Casey is now retired and out of the spotlight, I don't know what surname Adriana uses nowadays (Tuchyna, Tuchynova, Stoner, Stonerova...)

I agree with you two. Re. the last point you make, Caro_Liza, it's true it can be a problem; but no greater problem, surely, than when a married couple agree to keep their original surnames. OK, shutting up now, since I've really gone off-topic now, but I'll happily continue this via PMs if anyone is interested.

Good point you have about women keeping their maiden names. I suppose the only difference is that there are different nationalities and cultures involved in the feminising names example.

And don't worry about going off topic. This is the "Stupid Questions Thread" after all... there is no topic!!!


On that note, and returning to the subject of Russian names, I was wondering: what is the general trend in Russia when it comes to women who get divorced?

The reason I ask is that I am a fan of the winner of the individual women's ski jumping competition at the Universiade. I first came across her when she was a teenager called Irina Taktaeva. Then she got married, and adopted her husband's surname, becoming Irina Avvakumova. However, the marriage only lasted a couple of years, and they got divorced.

Of course, if you are a top athlete, it is never ideal to change your name coming into an Olympic season. It gets too confusing for everybody! So, I was not surprised when Irina continued to use the name "Avvakumova" last season.

I was fully expecting Irina to revert back to her maiden name once the Olympic season was over. Swiss Alpine Skiier Marianne Abderhalden was in the exact same position last season, and that's what she did. But Irina has instead continued using her married name this season.

There again, the most successful female Alpine skiier of all time did the same as Irina. After she got divorced from her coach, Lindsey Vonn did not revert back to her maiden name of Kildow. But, the difference her is that Lindsey is American, and America is a very different place to Russia!

So, is there some sort of social taboo over divorce in Russia? Do divorced women get looked down on, and so feel compelled to keep their married names?

I know it's not really related to figure skating, but since we are on the subject of names, this seems a good opportunity to find out something I have been curious about.

CaroLiza_fan

 

[surimi]

IIRC, women's surnames in Czech always end in the letter A. (At least, I can't think of any that don't).

The rare final -í and final -ů groups. Those lucky folks don't have to worry about authorities abroad, as the female and male surnames are identical.

To my ear, Brezina simply does not sound female, so even if I only saw the male version, I would recognize it as such. [...] But it's just not a feminine name despite the A ending, trust me)

That's because the feminine version is -á, not -a like in Russian. Unaccented final -a is used in male surnames only. That's why it sounds strange and unfeminine to you. The accent is not shown on TV (neither is Meité's for instance).

And now I'm clearing the field for some Russian experts to come and clarify Caro's question.

 

[Tanka]

On that note, and returning to the subject of Russian names, I was wondering: what is the general trend in Russia when it comes to women who get divorced?

All the divorced woman I know kept their former husband's last name.

And you know, you have to change soooo many documents in soooo many different places when you change your last name, that a woman should really hate her husband to go into it.
Half of my friends didn't changed their maiden last name after marriage as well, for the same reason.

 

[iluvtodd]

I don't consider these stupid questions, but I'll ask them anyway.

The USFS ad that starts with Ashley Wagner in red (and ends with Tara saying "Everyone should give fs a try."). There is a skater who talks about getting up after you fall. The voice sounds like Nicole Bobek, but I doubt it's her (since I figure they would use one of the current eligibles to speak in that ad). Can anyone here identify the skater who talks about getting up after you fall?


My second question - for those of you who attended US Nationals in Greensboro last month. We listened to Skate Radio Channels B & C a lot. I recognize the voices on Channel B. My husband Mark switched for a while to Channel C, and suggested I tune in as well. He thought for sure Todd was doing some of the commentary. After listening for a while, I thought it was Todd as well, but it may not have been him after all. If anyone else listened to the Channel C commentary during the men's free skate, can you positively identify the guys who did the commentary?

 

[creaturelover]

Is there any way to incorporate an Ina Bauer into a SP? Does anyone do it? The only reason I can think of is for a difficult entry into a 2a. It's my understanding that an Ina Bauer only scores points thru ChSeq which I don't think is allowed in the Sp.

Yuna Kim does an Ina Bauer into 2A in El Tango in 07