Random Figure Skating Questions

[karne]

My turn to ask one, now:

When I was reading the protocols for Japanese Nationals, I noticed that Hanyu's "club" affiliation seemed to be All Nippon Airlines (ANA). Do they sponsor a skating club in Japan or is it a personal sponsor of his?

 

[dorispulaski]

This question could be somewhat silly but, do we have a page to ask a favor of GS writers to publish articles on certain topics? If possible, I really want to see articles other than skaters. For example, I would be delighted with interviews about our favorite choreographers such as Lori Nicole, David Wilson, Jeff Buttle, Philip Mills and etc. Or great coaches, and favorite commentators like British Euro guys. Directly emailing to the writers can be a solution, but I'm also interested in seeing how other people think.

We have this page for Forum Requests already!
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?56936-Forum-Requests

If you would rather have a separate thread for print article requests, please do start a separate thread in the Announcements and Feedback folder

I would love to see such articles myself!

 

[Pamigena]

My turn to ask one, now:

When I was reading the protocols for Japanese Nationals, I noticed that Hanyu's "club" affiliation seemed to be All Nippon Airlines (ANA). Do they sponsor a skating club in Japan or is it a personal sponsor of his?

Posts from 2013

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35500-Yuzuru-Hanyu&p=749225&viewfull=1#post749225

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35500-Yuzuru-Hanyu&p=749234&viewfull=1#post749234

the contract was renewed last year

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35500-Yuzuru-Hanyu&p=969092&viewfull=1#post969092

 

[Rissa]

How is skating order determined at Worlds? World standings?

 

[Crossover]

Thanks for the warm and thoughtful answers and guide, golden411icecoverage and Doris.
I like TSL interviews but as mentioned by golden411, watching a video clip for more than hour is a bit too much task for me, so yes, I want to see a separate thread for print article requests. I will set up a thread when I'm ready.

 

[Sophie-Anna]

How is skating order determined at Worlds? World standings?

I think so. I believe, the skaters are divided into two halfs. First half is for those who are lower in world standings and the second half is for a better group. So when there are 6 warm-up groups, first three by the world standings skates earlier.

 

[karne]

Posts from 2013

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35500-Yuzuru-Hanyu&p=749225&viewfull=1#post749225

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35500-Yuzuru-Hanyu&p=749234&viewfull=1#post749234

the contract was renewed last year

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?35500-Yuzuru-Hanyu&p=969092&viewfull=1#post969092

Thankyou very much! Very smart on the part of both parties. ANA has one of Japan's most marketable athletes as their face and Yuzuru gets his (not inconsiderable, I'm sure!) costs covered.

 

[ice coverage]

How is skating order determined at Worlds? World standings?

I think so. I believe, the skaters are divided into two halfs. First half is for those who are lower in world standings and the second half is for a better group. ....

Some old posts from Mrs. P explained how the starting order for ISU Championships is determined.

I have quoted below a post of hers from the 2015 Four Continents Men's SP thread.

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...2-Seoul-Time&p=1093377&viewfull=1#post1093377​

IIRC, the rules are the same for all ISU Championships, so the rules for Worlds are the same as for Four Continents.

Projected start order (based on world standing; see ISU Technical Rules)

Men are spilt into two groups. Lower ranking skaters are in the "Skate Earlier" group; Higher ranking skaters are in the "Skate Later" group. If there's not a perfect spilt, the extra skater will go into "Skate Later" if two skaters are tied, both will go to the "Skate Later group."


EDITED due to MCM's WD:
26 entries
13 men are in the Skate Earlier group; 13 men are in the Skate Later group.
Warm-up group layout 5/5/5/5/6

Warm up group 1-3 (Start Order # 1- 15; The four unranked men (see below) will draw for spots #1 -#4; The 9 lowest ranked skaters in the "Skate Earlier group", who will draw for spots #5-#13; Two lowest ranked skaters in the "Skate Later group" will draw for spots #14 & #15)

Groups will be spilt in 5. An Ice surface will follow the second warm-up group.

1.) Andrew Dodds, AUS (Unranked)
2.) Liam Firus, CAN (Unranked)
3.) Henry Hau Yin Lee, HKG (Unranked)
4.) Jui-Shu Chen, TPE (Unranked)
5.) Se Jong Byun, KOR (#177)
6.) Denis Margalik, ARG (#115)
7.) Julian Zhi Jie Yee (#99)
8.) Yi Wang, CHN (#91)
9.) Ronald Lam, HKG (#73)
10.) Jinlin Guan, CHN (#71)
11.) Abzai Rakimgaliev, KAZ (#67)
12.) Brenden Kerry, AUS (#59)
13.) Chih-I Tsao, TPE (#54)
---- Men below are part of "Skate later group"
14.) Jeremy Ten, CAN (#53)
15.) Daisuke Murakami, JPN (#46)

Warm up group 4 (Start Order #16-#20; Skaters ranked #7-#12 in the Skate later group will draw for spots in this group)
16.) Jin Seo Kim, KOR (#39)
17.) June Hyoung Lee, KOR (#35)
18.) Joshua Farris, USA (#31)
19.) Nam Nguyen, CAN (#30)
20.) Adam Rippon, USA (#23)

(Ice resurface after this group)

Warm up group 5 (Start Order #21-#26; Skaters ranked #1-6 in the Skate later group will draw for spots in this final group)
22.)Shoma Uno, JPN (#21)
23.) Misha Ge, UZE (#20)
24.) Han Yan, CHN (#15)
25.) Jason Brown, USA (#14)
26.) Takahito Mura, JPN (#8)
27.) Denis Ten, KAZ (#4)


Last edited by Mrs. P; 02-09-2015 at 07:51 PM.

ETA, Mrs. P's analogous post from the 2015 Worlds Men's SP thread:

http://goldenskate.com/forum/showth...ram-March-27&p=1114975&viewfull=1#post1114975​

 

[NanaPat]

I don't quite understand golden411 and MrsP's explanation of start order. The example seems to indicate that skaters start strictly in accordance with their world rankings, but they also talk about a draw.

For example, look at group 5:
Warm up group 5 (Start Order #21-#26; Skaters ranked #1-6 in the Skate later group will draw for spots in this final group)
22.)Shoma Uno, JPN (#21)
23.) Misha Ge, UZE (#20)
24.) Han Yan, CHN (#15)
25.) Jason Brown, USA (#14)
26.) Takahito Mura, JPN (#8)
27.) Denis Ten, KAZ (#4)

Are those the actual start orders, or do those 6 skaters within "the top group" draw for starting order among the group. For instance, could Denis Ten (the highest-ranked skater in the example) actually go before some of the other men within the group? So the groups are determined by the world ranking, but the actual order within each group is by draw? So Denis's start order could be anywhere from 22 to 27, depending on the draw?

Or is it worse (for Denis at least)? Does the talk about "top half" and "bottom half" skaters mean that the draw is between the skaters of each half. That would mean that Denis Ten could start as early as number 14 (the first slot in the "top half").

So altogether I have identified 3 scenarios:
Denis Ten skates in slot # 27, based on his highest ranking among the participants
Denis Ten skates in one of slots 22 - 27, based a draw among the 6 participants with the highest rankings
Denis Ten skates in one of slots 14 - 27, based on a draw among the 14 participants with the highest rankings

I thought it was scenario 2, based on a draw within a warm-up group. If that's the case, then what is the significance of "top half" and "bottom half"? does that only affect warm-up group 3 (in the example), so the two skaters in the "top half" go after the men in the "bottom half".

Or maybe the top half draw is done by warmup groups but the bottom half draw is done in just two groups (bottom half unranked skate first based on one draw, bottom half ranked skate next, based on a second draw)?

I am confused!

 

[ice coverage]

I don't quite understand golden411 and MrsP's explanation of start order. The example seems to indicate that skaters start strictly in accordance with their world rankings, but they also talk about a draw.

For example, look at group 5:
Warm up group 5 (Start Order #21-#26; Skaters ranked #1-6 in the Skate later group will draw for spots in this final group)
22.)Shoma Uno, JPN (#21)
23.) Misha Ge, UZE (#20)
24.) Han Yan, CHN (#15)
25.) Jason Brown, USA (#14)
26.) Takahito Mura, JPN (#8)
27.) Denis Ten, KAZ (#4)

....

(1) To avoid confusing you further, I will refer you to the PDF for ISU Technical Rules that is at the link in Mrs. P's post.
The rules for determining the starting order for ISU Championships are in Rule 520 on pp. 86-87 of that PDF.

(2) Please note: Mrs. P was giving a projection of the start order for Four Continents -- a projection before the necessary draws were held.

As she indicated: to determine the start order within the final group, a draw was to be held among Uno, Ge, Yan, Brown, Mura, and Ten.

Based on the draw, the starting order for Warm-Up Group 5 was determined to be:

Takahito MURA JPN
Shoma UNO JPN
Jason BROWN USA
Han YAN CHN
Misha GE UZB
Denis TEN KAZ
www.isuresults.com/results/fc2015/fc2015_Men_SP_TimeSchedule.pdf (click to see the starting order for all 26 entries)​

 

[Rissa]

So, as I understand, they are divided into groups according to World Standings, and then they draw the exact number within the group?

 

[gkelly]

Yes.

 

[ice coverage]

So, as I understand, they are divided into groups according to World Standings, and then they draw the exact number within the group?

Yes.

To be precise:

The answer is No for those in the "skating earlier" half. And for those who have the lowest ISU World Standings within the "skating later" half.​

In the 2015 Four Continents Men's SP, note (for example) that:

- Se Jong BYUN of Korea was the very lowest in the ISU World Standings, but competed in Warm-up Group 3.
- Among those in the "skating earlier" half, he was the last to skate.
- And he skated immediately before Daisuke Murakami, who of the Four Continents entries was ten men above Byun in the World Standings. (In the World Standings, Byun was #177 and Murakami was #46.)
- Things worked out this way for Byun because the procedure is not as simple as dividing all the skaters into groups based on World Standings.​

The answer is Yes only for the skaters who are highest in the ISU World Standings -- who compete in the final two groups.

From the ISU document:

... there will be a free draw among Competitors with the highest ranking to skate in the last starting order group of the “skating later” part and a free draw among Competitors with the next highest ranking to skate in the next to last starting order group of the “skating later” part.​

For better or worse, the complete procedure just is not super-simple.

Mrs. P did a very nice job of explaining a not-super-simple procedure.
I don't know how to clarify beyond what is in her post and what is in the ISU document.

Based on the procedure/draws explained by Mrs. P and published in the ISU document, the starting order for the first three groups of 2015 Four Continents Men's SP was:

Warm-up Group 1
Harry Hau Yin LEE
Liam FIRUS CAN
Andrew DODDS AUS
Jui-Shu CHEN TPE
Yuhang GUAN CHN

Warm-up Group 2
Abzal RAKIMGALIEV KAZ
Ronald LAM HKG
Denis MARGALIK ARG
Chih-I TSAO TPE
Brendan KERRY AUS

Warm-up Group 3
Yi WANG CHN
Julian Zhi Jie YEE MAS
Se Jong BYUN KOR
Daisuke MURAKAMI JPN
Jeremy TEN​

 

[Rissa]

^^
Thank you, looks clear to me now!

 

[mrrice]

As we approach the Big Events of the season, I have a question for those of you who might know the answer. "Why aren't judges paid?" As most of you know, I judged dance for several years and it was just recently that I learned the judges at most events aren't paid. In my judging career, your pay would increase with each season. Your "Assignments" would also become better. Starting at local, then building up until you reached the World level.

Here's my real question. How does the ISU get quality judges if they don't pay them? There must be incentives of some kind....Am I wrong?

 

[gkelly]

For the Why, the answer goes back to the beginnings of the organized sport in the late 19th century, the same era as the beginnings of the modern Olympic movement, when Amateurism was an important ideal. Mainly for elitist reasons at the time. Competitors had to be pure amateurs and so did officials.

That started to change in the 1980s and by the mid-90s the operative term was "eligible," not "amateur."

But the structure of how the sport was governed and how officials were assigned had already been developed in a context of amateurism and of competitors and officials representing national federations.

The majority of voting members in ISU decisions are small national federations, and they believe it is in their best interest to ensure that every federation has a shot at representation on the judging panels.

Judging international events, especially championship or Grand Prix events, is considered very prestigious, so judges are eager to be assigned.

Their expenses are paid, and usually they're treated like VIPs in terms of the hotels, food, etc., offered. At lesser events the perks might be less attractive.

Within a large federation such as USFS, it's very competitive to become a national judge and even moreso to be supported for an international appointment. Some of the decision making about appointments is probably political at those levels, and sometimes older judges may stay in past their peak expertise especially as the rules change significantly, but in general the US judges who get to be national and international judges tend to be very sharp, and most often to have been high-level (novice-senior) competitors themselves.

Smaller federations may need to take whoever is willing to put in the time to get certified and to serve.

To get trained and certified takes time and money on the part of the candidate (unless they come from a federation that is willing to support them financially through the process). And then they have to be available to travel around the country or around the world actually judging on a regular basis. So it tends to be people who have flexible professions or other sources of income.

 

[mrrice]

For the Why, the answer goes back to the beginnings of the organized sport in the late 19th century, the same era as the beginnings of the modern Olympic movement, when Amateurism was an important ideal. Mainly for elitist reasons at the time. Competitors had to be pure amateurs and so did officials.

That started to change in the 1980s and by the mid-90s the operative term was "eligible," not "amateur."

But the structure of how the sport was governed and how officials were assigned had already been developed in a context of amateurism and of competitors and officials representing national federations.

The majority of voting members in ISU decisions are small national federations, and they believe it is in their best interest to ensure that every federation has a shot at representation on the judging panels.

Judging international events, especially championship or Grand Prix events, is considered very prestigious, so judges are eager to be assigned.

Their expenses are paid, and usually they're treated like VIPs in terms of the hotels, food, etc., offered. At lesser events the perks might be less attractive.

Within a large federation such as USFS, it's very competitive to become a national judge and even moreso to be supported for an international appointment. Some of the decision making about appointments is probably political at those levels, and sometimes older judges may stay in past their peak expertise especially as the rules change significantly, but in general the US judges who get to be national and international judges tend to be very sharp, and most often to have been high-level (novice-senior) competitors themselves.

Smaller federations may need to take whoever is willing to put in the time to get certified and to serve.

To get trained and certified takes time and money on the part of the candidate (unless they come from a federation that is willing to support them financially through the process). And then they have to be available to travel around the country or around the world actually judging on a regular basis. So it tends to be people who have flexible professions or other sources of income.

Thanks gkelly,

I can imagine that the smaller feds must feel like the deck is stacked against them. Unfortunately, It's the same with dance. We have to do a home study course followed by a written test. Fortunately, this can now be done online. In my day (Man, I'm old) we had to travel to a central location which was located 300 miles from some people. The California, Nevada, Arizona, and Oregon judges all traveled to Phoenix for training and we weren't paid anything to travel or stay in hotels.

This is why there's such a difference between regions and their judges. Most judges from California, myself included. Had our expenses paid by our boosters as having a judge who came from your school is considered a big deal. Several districts can't afford to send someone on that kind of trip "In Hope" that they will successfully complete their training.

This is how the "politics" of judging begin. It seems that "The rich get richer" I hope that made sense.

 

[Mathman]

ISU and International judges also have to attend periodic seminars for continued certification and to learn about new ruLes changes. For instance, this seminar

http://static.isu.org/media/268252/1988-frankfurt-seminar-2016_final.pdf

scheduled for Frankfort next July is for recertification of tech controllers and tech specialists.

This one, although it is included in the "judges seminars" series is actually for coaches who teach pair skating at the developmental level, I don't know what role the judges play -- maybe they are seminar leaders or resource people. Not all judges are qualified to judge pairs or (especially) ice dance.

http://static.isu.org/media/261090/1986-dvl-pair-and-judges-seminars-2016.pdf

 

[Mathman]

To expand on what gkelly said about amateurism, back in the day, “gentlemen” would not be caught dead sharing the same playing field with “commoners.” If you were a gentleman sportsman, you competed for the noble ideal of sport itself. You would never sully the purity of your commitment by accepting – ugh! – money.

Professionals (for instance prize fighters) were low-lifes who – yuck! – were not independently wealthy, had no title or land holdings, and so – ick! -- had to work for a living.

It is the same idea that when you take your wife to a fancy restaurant, the gentleman orders for the lady. He doesn’t actually order for her, rather he conveys her order to the waiter. That way the lady does not have to lower herself by communicating directly with the waiter, a lowly servant.

You would certainly not want a figure skating judge who expected or needed to get paid like a common harlot for her services.

 

[NanaPat]

Some of the Canadian commentators went through judges' training when the judging system changed. I think Tracy Wilson went through the training for a tech "callers". I don't know if they ever actually judged or controlled, but they felt they needed the training in order to comment intelligently on the scores. I imagine their employer (CBC, CTV) paid their expenses for the training, though I can't recall if they actually said anything about that.