Rhythmic Gymnastics Tokyo 2020 Individual AA Final: Were Averina sisters robbed or nah?

[coldblueeyes]

I just finished watching the individual all-round final. I have no opinion on who should or shouldn’t have won (although I was absolutely rooting for a twins 1-2), but just a question: why did Arina switch ribbons? (and why was it penalized…. because of the steps she had to take to get it and being out of sync with the music etc., or is there a bigger reason, like switching apparatus itself is a big penalty? She didn’t let her ribbon fall, so that cannot have been a penalty, right?). Her ribbon seemed fine? I’m so confused, lol.

Let me give you a longer explanation so you get more background. She got a knot in the ribbon, so in the current code, most of what you perform with a knotted ribbon is not valid. It’s the reason why she had to get the replacement apparatus.

But getting the replacement apparatus is costly, and there are deductions for disruptions in the routine, changing the ribbon, and losing content in the routine while you walk to the side, so she lost points in difficulty and execution for that, but it was her best choice to actually get a better score.

It’s something that will be changed in the next code, because it sounds very unfair, though judges wanted to instill this rule because getting knots in the ribbon implies bad apparatus technique, which is not always completely true, but also not completely false.

Arina also has the worst luck with the ribbon, it’s not the first or second time something big like this happens to her.

 

[solani]

I have watched the routines now. I'm not an expert. My guess is, that the judges hate this scoring system and consider Russia to be responsible for it. With some merit.
But let's face it - those twin gymnasts are not so very great. I adore the last OC, Mammun. Very impressive, expressive, womanly, everything. I wonder how many talented girls choose Figure Skating over RG nowadays in Russia. And this mean coach makes Eteri look really nice, so If I were a parent of a talented girl, I would keep her far away from RG in Russia.

 

[wakuwaku]

Besides body technique comparison, I see basically no difference between Dina and Linoy under the current code.

I don't see any point to argue about artistry, tbh. It's too subjective anyway.

I'm sure Medvedeva felt the same way in 2018 like Dina is feeling right now

No, she didn't. If Medvedeva would lost her gold medal to, let's say, Mirai Nagasu there (with performances they both showed then) - she would feel something like that. I'm not saying that Mirai is bad skater at all - it's just that she never was olympic champion material, so to speak.

I don't know enough about rg scoring either to determine whether Dina Averina was "robbed" or not, but her comments seemed very unsportmanlike to me, saying that the judges made sure she didn't win

It's understandable if we realize that she knows how she was scored for what she was doing exactly - in previous tournaments before Tokyo - and how Linoy was scored before as well. If the whole season before that competition for the same routines and for the same elements you were getting much higher difficulty scores whereas Linoy were getting lower - and only in that competition it was unexpectedly reversed for no reason - it's no wonder it can trigger strong reaction because any strong athlete can't help but would feel humiliated by that scores.
In that sense I can't understand people here who consider that scoring more or less fair. Because whether you understand RG rules or not - it implies that all previous competitions where Averinas elements were assessed to have higher difficulty - and Linoy's - lower - were unfair and judges forgot RG rules at the time? )
It's obvious for any experienced fan of technical types of sport that elements and routines - once mastered - remains more or less the same throughout the season. And any unexpected scores fluctuation (I mean - in terms of fs - BV score - not execuition i.e. GOE) would look very suspicious. I am sure if we compare Linoy's and Averinas performances of the same programs from previous toutrnaments - they would look the same. But with very different difficulty assessment. Considering the above - I would never dare to claim that the scoring here was fair - unless I strongly believe it was unfair all that time until just this day.

 

[coldblueeyes]

I don't see any point to argue about artistry, tbh. It's too subjective anyway.
It's understandable if we realize that she knows how she was scored for what she was doing exactly - in previous tournaments before Tokyo - and how Linoy was scored before as well. If the whole season before that competition for the same routines and for the same elements you were getting much higher difficulty scores whereas Linoy were getting lower - and only in that competition it was unexpectedly reversed for no reason - it's no wonder it can trigger strong reaction because any strong athlete can't help but would feel humiliated by that scores.
In that sense I can't understand people here who consider that scoring more or less fair. Because whether you understand RG rules or not - it implies that all previous competitions where Averinas elements were assessed to have higher difficulty - and Linoy's - lower - were unfair and judges forgot RG rules at the time? )
It's obvious for any experienced fan of technical types of sport that elements and routines - once mastered - remains more or less the same throughout the season. And any unexpected scores fluctuation (I mean - in terms of fs - BV score - not execuition i.e. GOE) would look very suspicious. I am sure if we compare Linoy's and Averinas performances of the same programs from previous toutrnaments - they would look the same. But with very different difficulty assessment. Considering the above - I would never dare to claim that the scoring here was fair - unless I strongly believe it was unfair all that time until just this day.

Two things to understand about this:
- artistry is not supposed to be subjective. The code is very clear that in no way should the judge refer to personal taste when watching routines. They have guidelines on how to judge the artistic component that nothing have to do with liking or not the construction of a routine. They value the movement across the carpet, the connecting movements and interruptions in the flow of a routine, disposition of elements with music accents and choreography relating to the dynamics of the chosen music. Also, the artistry is solely judged in the execution score, which Dina won over Linoy.

As for the difficulty difference, Linoy added a fair bit of tents in each routine from new rotations she included just for the Olympics, because she knew what she had to do. Neither Dina or Arina have bumped up their difficulty, in fact, Dina actually lowered her body difficulty score in this season. It’s not a case of them getting less point now than before, judging was strict across the board compared to some previous competitions this year, but Linoy just knew she had to do more than she had ever done before. And she did it successfully.


There’s zero sense in comparing figure skating and RG because the judging system is just different. But it’s clear that Russia did not game the system as well as they did before. Even the group routines, if they hadn’t done such a stink the day before the final, I doubt they would have gotten silver. Both group routines were below Italy and Belarus in difficulty, but the judges gave them the clear benefit of the doubt in a lot of elements in their routines. If they were another country they would not have gotten those scores. I do think they competed well enough for the podium, and Italy didn’t help themselves with their mistakes either, so in the end it was fair.

 

[MUALover]

I read the twitter feeds and the news first and thought that Dina was robbed. But then I watched and rewatched the completion and thought that Linoy Ashram won fair and square (although I have no training in RG but I'm just going based on my perception).

Linoy is much more athletic than Dina. I'm just a casual observer - Linoy's throws are very high, she moves incredibly fast, she has powerful jumps. Dina is very thin and frail and although she is good, she doesn't have Linoy's dynamism. Linoy is like Simone Biles at her peak (powerful and athletic). So I understand how Linoy won. I also enjoyed Linoy's routines a lot.

But I also agreed with Adelina winning over Yuna in 2014 so what do you know... (in 2014, IMO, Yuna was no longer at her peak. Adelina has wonderful technique and power on her jumps). At the end of the day, this is a sports competition, not a beauty or a dance competition. You can't depend on your reputation or your country's reputation in a sport and do easier/safer routines in the hopes that the judges will give you that gold as long as you didn't F'up. I think people (and the athletes themselves) were expecting Kim or Dina to get the gold as long as they didn't screw up. I don't think that's championship mentality.

Here is the thing: at the Olympics, if you want to be a repeat champion or maintain your country's tradition in the sport (I mean dominance), you need to work harder and up the ante. Your competitors aren't at home eating chips to hand you or roll over to hand you the gold medal.

 

[Artemisa]

Well... first congrats to all of them. They are all great!!
Now regarding the controversy... I don't understand the scores in rhythmic gymnastics or try.. but if your scores in an all around never beat the twins.. it's not now that you can fail and win.... yes i believe there might have been some tendency to benefit someone other than a russian athlete .. it's a very long reign .. that doesn't mean it's such scandalous winning...
The next Olympic cycle for russian rhythmic gymnastics is going to be tough and Irina Viner will raise the difficulty of rhythmic gymnastics to another level even if it comes at all costs... anger is a powerful motivator


p.S: Seeing the exercises reminded me of the Soldatova .. I miss her

 

[FelineFairy]

I don't think any one of them was as great as the previous champions, Evgenia Kanaeva and Margarita Mamun. I'm not a fan of the twins, or of Linoy. But the scoring was questionable. I wouldn't say that Dina was so much robbed, just a bit underscored, but Linoy was a bit overscored, and Arina was slaughtered in the first three routines. I did some RG when I was young, with no success because of lack of stretch and my heavy boning, but I have loved and followed it ever since. It doesn't make me a specialist, but at least I have a vague idea of the scoring system. Yes, it is open, and one can win with a drop, if one clearly and obviously outperforms one's opponents in difficulty and quality. No questions about that. But the scores given by the judges BEFORE the ribbon routine made the difference between the sisters and Linoy so huge that my jaw dropped. What I saw was: all three should have been close in the hoop score, with minimal difference. In the ball routine, Dina underperformed. But Arina was simply slaughtered from the very beginning. Her ball was practically as difficult as Linoy's, and had better quality in rotations. After the two routines Arina should have been first or very closely second. In clubs, Linoy had more body difficulty but both sisters handled the clubs better. With the current scoring system, Linoy should have won the clubs, but not by such a margin. After three routines there should have been minimal difference between all three. And then the ribbon should have decided it. Anyone could have won. And whoever would have won, it could have been a fair, well-deserved victory. Now it is dubious.

 

[sailormoon]

Arina also has the worst luck with the ribbon, it’s not the first or second time something big like this happens to her.

Dina Averina needed to score at least 24.15 points for her ribbon routine to win the gold medal, but despite her flawless performance, she scored only 24.00 points and finished in second place. In the ribbon qualification, Dina did score 24.00 points and she did as good. Russia requested score inquiries a couple of times and a score was collected once. The artistic gymnastics scoring system may not be as transparent as that of figure skating.

 

[anonymoose_au]

The artistic gymnastics scoring system may not be as transparent as that of figure skating.

Rhythm Gymnastics rather, but good point! Maybe they should do what figure skating did and put a little box in the corner...I'm a big fan of the BOX. I'm a lot less confused now it's there.

 

[Azikin]

Dina Averina needed to score at least 24.15 points for her ribbon routine to win the gold medal, but despite her flawless performance, she scored only 24.00 points and finished in second place.

So you're an expert? I'm not but by my understanding Linoy had a lead before the last discipline and Dina needed a huge score to beat her. Maybe her performance wasn't as flawless as you think. Anyway, Olympics should be about showing sportsmanship. Those Russians should watch Judo sometimes...

 

[anonymoose_au]

Thinking more on this, I hold the commentators partly responsible for the fallout here. One of the first things they tell you (or at least the ones I listen to) is dropping the apparatus is a BIG no-no.

As it turns out, there's different degrees of dropping, some less costly than others, really the casual viewer should be informed.

When I began watching figure skating for example it was back in the day of 6.0 and a fall was the kiss of death. When I was actually able to get into the sport with faster internet speeds in Australia, it took me ages to realise you could fall these days... sometimes more than once and not lose the competition! I don't think the commentors ever mentioned it... I was confused for some time.

 

[GoneWithTheWind]

So, I finally got around to watching the RG final (well actually, the top 4 competitors across the all around, which was all the BBC showed on their coverage ).

Firstly, congratulations to Alina Harnasko on her bronze, I really enjoyed her performances, so graceful and elegant (even with the tiny ribbon drop). Her reaction to winning bronze was so adorable, I really hope she sticks around for the next quad/3 years and continues to have success.

I felt sorry for Arina Averina, she had such an awful time with the ribbon at 2018 Worlds, and then had similar problems here. I really loved her ball routine though.

Linoy Ashram was on fire across the first 3 apparatus, I think that's the best I've ever seen her perform. I especially loved her ball routine. The ribbon routine is also lovely, drop aside. Her reaction to winning was also wonderful.

Dina Averina looked, to me, a little more tentative with hoop than usually, however, her clubs routine was my favourite of the night.

As for who won, even with the drop, Linoy had made up enough points over Dina across the rest of the apparatus that she had some wiggle room for an error. Whether the scoring was fair across the night, I don't have enough in-depth knowledge of all the deductions/elements to judge. As a viewer who is slightly more than a 4-year fan (I watch RG europeans/worlds), I was happy Linoy won, but I would've been equally happy if Dina had won, based on their performances on the night.

The BBC commentators (who are more AG specialist than RG) seemed content with the result, although they were sympathetic to Dina feeling upset with the silver.

Linoy is not the first gymnast to win despite a drop and she won't be the last, partly due to the point below:

As it turns out, there's different degrees of dropping, some less costly than others, really the casual viewer should be informed.

I completely agree with this. The commentators often make it sound as if all drops are equal, when they are not. A small drop with no steps to retrieve the apparatus will get a much smaller deduction than if a gymnast has to travel across the floor (or out of the square) to retrieve it. A large drop also means the gymnast will miss other moves and difficulties in her routine whilst retrieving it, whilst, in Linoy's case, the drop only interrupted the routine for a moment and she didn't miss any of her other elements while retrieving it.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Dina Averina needed to score at least 24.15 points for her ribbon routine to win the gold medal, but despite her flawless performance, she scored only 24.00 points and finished in second place. In the ribbon qualification, Dina did score 24.00 points and she did as good. Russia requested score inquiries a couple of times and a score was collected once. The artistic gymnastics scoring system may not be as transparent as that of figure skating.

I think you’re confused here. Dina scored 22.8 in qualification. So definitely far away from 24.

Also, her ribbon score in the AA final took a while to come out because I’m sure the head judge was making sure there was nothing wrong with it, so asking for an inquiry would be moot. It was the last routine and a deciding one at that, it happens a few times like this.

And the scoring has its pros and cons, but this code was tailor made to give gymnasts the chance to make up deficits with different elements, since it’s open in difficulty. It was heavily pushed by Russia to favor the Averinas, while gymnasts like Soldatova and Selezneva were left behind. The next one is being made for Lala Kramarenko, so things are going to value more body difficulty and rotations.

In this particular instance, they just didn’t count on the fact that someone might be better as racking up points than the Russians. It also happens like this from time to time.

 

[coldblueeyes]

I completely agree with this. The commentators often make it sound as if all drops are equal, when they are not. A small drop with no steps to retrieve the apparatus will get a much smaller deduction than if a gymnast has to travel across the floor (or out of the square) to retrieve it. A large drop also means the gymnast will miss other moves and difficulties in her routine whilst retrieving it, whilst, in Linoy's case, the drop only interrupted the routine for a moment and she didn't miss any of her other elements while retrieving it.

To give you an idea:
Small drop and no steps: 0.5
Drop with 1-2 steps: 0.7
Drop with more steps: 1 point in execution

 

[flanker]

I can't say much about it for myself as I do not understand the elements and scoring much in the RG, but there will be world championships in october, again in Japan. I'm very curious about the results there.

 

[TontoK]

Yagudin is doing his part to lower the emotional temperature and inject some civility into a controversial topic.

Just kidding! He's fanning the flames.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CSUyC53I9Yn/

 

[Supernovaimplosion]

I'm someone who watches RG casually through out the year and tries to know how it's scored, but I'm not not an expert.
I do think that Linoy could win even with a drop, because difficulty score are so important these days. It's like the common critism of figure skating: that skaters can win with a fall. It kind of reminded me of the 2018 team competition, where a lot of (casual) watchers were angry that Patrick was ahead of Adam, even though Patrick fell.
Apparently Linoy's difficulty went up in ribbon in the final even with the drop. Why, I'm not an expert enough to know. In figure skating, athletes are marked on like 12 elements. In Rhythmic gymnastics, top gymnasts can apparently do up to 40 elements. So it's very hard to keep track of what gymnasts actually do, I guess?
Perhaps Ashram held back in the qualifiers and added things for the final.
But I honestly understand why Dina is so upset (though i don't approve of her remarks) because 0.150 is so close. Its like falling out of a pivot a fraction too early and losing 1 rotation. It could have gone either way.
I'm devastated for Arina, because she looked so defeated and nervous! I'm sad for both the twins, because I'm sure that Irina Viner will not be happy with them.
That all being said, I do think that Russia is being melodramatic about losing, especially when they lost the group AA and claimed the judges were done with "hegemony of Russia" in the sport or whatever.
Like, Russia is the most influential nation in RG, and Irina Viner is very powerful. I'm only a casual fan, but people act like Viner single handedly makes the decisions
I wonder if Russia just got a bit complacent and didn't expect other nations to catch up in difficulty.
The real thing is that FIG should just release protocols! I was shocked when I learned they didn't!

 

[MUALover]

And the scoring has its pros and cons, but this code was tailor made to give gymnasts the chance to make up deficits with different elements, since it’s open in difficulty. It was heavily pushed by Russia to favor the Averinas, while gymnasts like Soldatova and Selezneva were left behind. The next one is being made for Lala Kramarenko, so things are going to value more body difficulty and rotations.

In this particular instance, they just didn’t count on the fact that someone might be better as racking up points than the Russians. It also happens like this from time to time.

Irina Viner and the Russians tried to change to code and it backfired in their faces. If they had kept the old code, when a drop was the kiss of death, Dina Averina would've won. But they were too smart for their own good and got hoist in their own petard.

There is a youtube video of Linoy and Dina's ribbon routine side by side and you can clearly see Dina's routine was more static. I indeed think the Russians got complacent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrlQfTbudbM&t=1s

 

[composer]

ClematisRG just posted in an Instagram story that they will be doing a Tokyo 2020 video! This should be good!

 

[ines42575]

Long time RG fan here! I talked with some international judges and will upload in the following days the updated scores for the twins and Linoy, including the apparatus handling and element deductions. Hint: with the COP propperly applied the podium would have been 1)Dina, 2)Linoy and 3) Arina. Dina was overscored in hoop and ball, Linoy in ball and ribbon, while Arina underscored in ball and clubs.

I will attach the link to the Google Drive folder where I will upload this scores (here). As for the moment, I uploaded Linoy's revised ribbon score.

Just in case someone wants to know, the judges I discussed the results with are judges with European/Asian/world championships scoring history, and some of them were judges in previous Olympic Games.

Every opinion regarding the scores will be highly appreciated