Rhythmic Gymnastics Tokyo 2020 Individual AA Final: Were Averina sisters robbed or nah?

[yume]

They can save that for after the medal ceremony. You can throw away the medal when you get home, I don't care. But it is still very disrespectful to show that at the event. I sadly can't find a video of the medal ceramony, but if any of this was shown then, it's considered disrespectful. I've won silver when I thought I'd win gold at both sectionals (twice) and nationals (once) so even though it's the Olympics, not nationals, I still somewhat understand how it feels and I have empathy for Dina, but at the same time it was still very disrespectful. The two can coexist. If you'd be cringing and gritting your teeth instead of smiling, no one would think "look at this poor girl with emotions that hurt her;" they'd be thinking "look at this disrespectful, ungrateful girl." Not a good look, is it?

Not everyone has the mental strength to show something that they don't feel inside. Most of the time the smiles of the favorites who lose are fake smiles made for cameras. It isn't necessary respect, it's PR.

 

[Alex D]

It seems hard these days to just reveal some information without triggering a war. I will consider this in the future.

Dina did clap when Linoy stepped up the podium, she did in addition give the medal a kiss off camera and she also shared a picture with the medal and her sisters and the medal she took down after the ceremony before talking to the press.

The girls of all nations are also extremely supportive to each other, all the hate and gossip is coming from the outside, just like at Sochi.

Last but not least, being a person of the public, the 24/7 pressure, expectations and the dangers of losing everything within a split second, is not something anyone of the bullies will ever encounter in life.

 

[anonymoose_au]

If you'd be cringing and gritting your teeth instead of smiling, no one would think "look at this poor girl with emotions that hurt her;" they'd be thinking "look at this disrespectful, ungrateful girl."

Well by gritting my teeth I meant like those fake smiles you give when you'd rather be anywhere else.

Online harrassment and bullying of a young woman? Death threats to officials? Honest to God, there are some deranged folk out there.

It's definitely become a repeat of Sochi now... And I'm starting to wonder if judged sports like figure skating and gymnastics should be in the Olympics. Like there's no "goal" as such. No way for the casual viewer to tell at a glance what happened. Like in soccer, running, javelin-throwing whatever it's easy to see the Athlete 1 bested Athlete 2.

In gymnastics and skating half the time you need slo-mo, a magnifying glass and a year of intense studying to figure out how so and so won over such and such.

 

[Amei]

They can save that for after the medal ceremony. You can throw away the medal when you get home, I don't care. But it is still very disrespectful to show that at the event. I sadly can't find a video of the medal ceramony, but if any of this was shown then, it's considered disrespectful. I've won silver when I thought I'd win gold at both sectionals (twice) and nationals (once) so even though it's the Olympics, not nationals, I still somewhat understand how it feels and I have empathy for Dina, but at the same time it was still very disrespectful. The two can coexist. If you'd be cringing and gritting your teeth instead of smiling, no one would think "look at this poor girl with emotions that hurt her;" they'd be thinking "look at this disrespectful, ungrateful girl." Not a good look, is it?

What exactly did she do disrespectful at the medal ceremony? I googled and found the clip below and I don't see anything disrespectful. I mean for starters let's be clear 75% or more of her face it covered in a mask. Does she seemed thrilled, no, she looks upset but that's understandable and nothing disrespectful looking based on what I could see, based on what I can see she had been crying and was either trying to not cry on the podium or trying to contain the amount of tears. When I think of a disrespectful medal ceremony I think 1994 Worlds from surya bonaley where she initially refused to get on the podium and while on the podium almost immediately took the medal off her neck. Look at that then look at Averina at the Olympics, not even close to disrespectful in my opinion.

 

[Fluture]

What exactly did she do disrespectful at the medal ceremony? I googled and found the clip below and I don't see anything disrespectful. I mean for starters let's be clear 75% or more of her face it covered in a mask. I mean does she seemed thrilled, no, she looks upset but that's understandable and nothing disrespectful looking based on what I could see. When I think of a disrespectful medal ceremony I think 1994 Worlds from surya bonaley where she initially refused to get on the podium and while on the podium almost immediately took the medal off her neck. Look at that then look at Averina at the Olympics, not even close to disrespectful in my opinion.

Yeah, agreed. She looks disappointed and upset and as if she‘s desperately holding it all in so she doesn’t appear disrespectful. I think we should have sympathy for that, it must be so difficult to be put on a big stage while you‘re going through emotional turmoil like that! Also, she literally didn‘t do anything she wasn‘t supposed to? Not everybody can force themselves to look "happy" when they‘re clearly distraught…

Her interviews after the competitions are a bit of another story and initially I didn‘t like the whole "I was robbed" angle. But imo, it‘s pretty understandable once you see how coaches in RG treat these women (watching Over The Limit was horrifying in so many ways) and how anything other than gold/perfection is handled like a disgrace. If you were robbed by the judges, it‘s not your fault and maybe, they won‘t take it out on you. Is it a bad look? Sure. But if you ask me, it‘s also a defence mechanism and I'd put fault on the coaches first.

 

[Idiote]

What exactly did she do disrespectful at the medal ceremony? I googled and found the clip below and I don't see anything disrespectful. I mean for starters let's be clear 75% or more of her face it covered in a mask. Does she seemed thrilled, no, she looks upset but that's understandable and nothing disrespectful looking based on what I could see, based on what I can see she had been crying and was either trying to not cry on the podium or trying to contain the amount of tears. When I think of a disrespectful medal ceremony I think 1994 Worlds from surya bonaley where she initially refused to get on the podium and while on the podium almost immediately took the medal off her neck. Look at that then look at Averina at the Olympics, not even close to disrespectful in my opinion.

From the very little I know about the Surya Bonaly situation, while I understand how it's perceived as a disrespectful move and unsportswomanship, it's still a different story than with the Averinas. Surya was a top contender for many years, got very rarely rightfully credited for her talent because of her lack of artistry according to the era's standards (and also a touch of latent unconscious racism), truly worked her butt off to improve and give the judges what they wanted, but there was just always a reason to never allow her to be a World champion. This time she was so, so close, she gave one of the best skates of her life, but still a nope. It was the last straw after too many years, I understand she was pissed as hell and to me her gesture isn't unsportswomanship, it's a political statement. Not the same. But again, just my opinion and I completely see how it's inappropriate in the eyes of many.

Regarding the Averinas, I do not consider myself a RG fan - I know jacksh*t about the rules, only saw a few (terrifying) documentaries (seriously, how is Viner still allowed to take "care" of young girls?!), binge-watched London, Rio and a few other olympic finals, and watched Tokyo's a few days ago. To my untrained eye, Linoy Ashram deserved the win, she showed supreme confidence, grace and power, the ribbon mistake was the only false note in four amazing routines. I felt Arina Averina was a bit underscored, and very unlucky with ribbon, I feel sad for her but at least she can somewhat only blame herself for the 4th place, she seems to have accepted it better than Dina with her silver.

To be honest, I knew about the Averinas only from name and reputation, I never saw them perform before, and I was quite disappointed. Mamun, Kanaeva and Kabaeva felt much more remarkable and unique to me, I truly couldn't really see what was so amazing about the twins compared to the other competitors In all of their routines they both seemed off and very nervous to me, though to be fair the more the competition progressed not in the way they wanted the more it seemed to throw them off.

I feel pity for them, Russia's absolute dominance in RG was bound to end at some point, and it happened to them. While the anarchist in me is always happy to see empires fall, it's often the lives of innocent individuals who get crushed in the process and they did not deserve that.
I absolutely do not approve of the death threats and atrocious hate displayed all over the Internet on Ashram and the judges (and frankly Zhenya's statements in her interview felt totally off and inappropriate to me - oh and also, could someone take the Internet out of Yagudin's hands please ? ^^'), but at least Russia's frustration isn't being taken onto Dina and Arina for "failing" to live up to the country's golden standards. I guess it's better from them to be remembered as the-girls-who-were-robbed instead of the-girls-who-failed-and-ended-the-country's-reign-of-glory. Imo, they are a little bit of both ; and for the second point, that's okay. It happened to them but it could, and would, have happened to someone else, if not this year then another one. It's hard and painful, they'll have to heal and learn to live with it, and I hope they'll make peace with it. They still have plenty of gold medals and achievements in the sport.

However, I confess I am extremely happy to see this happen to Viner. That's 100% karma backlash, finally As we say in French, cheh !

 

[yume]

I guess that the twins (and Linoy) will retire after worlds. They aren't young enough to chase after 2nd olympics. And they probably doesn't want 4 years (3 in that case) of intense training. Kudryatseva was young enough to try a 2nd time but she retired (that foot was maybe a reason too).

 

[AlexBreeze]

I guess that the twins (and Linoy) will retire after worlds. They aren't young enough to chase after 2nd olympics. And they probably doesn't want 4 years (3 in that case) of intense training. Kudryatseva was young enough to try a 2nd time but she retired (that foot was maybe a reason too).

Arina's going to continue. But I doubt that she will be sent to the next Olympics.

 

[coldblueeyes]

In the current level of RG, I doubt they would continue past this year. Linoy seems to be in better physical shape, but both Averinas have been with injuries on and off for the better part of the past years. They need rest and recovery. Also, there's the fact that the next code is going to change things up a bit, and will be favoring gymnasts with a better body difficulty arsenal, which, at this point in their careers, the Averinas just don't have anymore. Linoy will have to overhaul her routines too if she wants to continue.

 

[macy]

What exactly did she do disrespectful at the medal ceremony? I googled and found the clip below and I don't see anything disrespectful. I mean for starters let's be clear 75% or more of her face it covered in a mask. Does she seemed thrilled, no, she looks upset but that's understandable and nothing disrespectful looking based on what I could see, based on what I can see she had been crying and was either trying to not cry on the podium or trying to contain the amount of tears. When I think of a disrespectful medal ceremony I think 1994 Worlds from surya bonaley where she initially refused to get on the podium and while on the podium almost immediately took the medal off her neck. Look at that then look at Averina at the Olympics, not even close to disrespectful in my opinion.

yeah these are two completely different things. Averina was only visibly upset, she wasn't disrespectful in any way, where Bonaly basically threw a tantrum IMO.

Linoy privated her account on Instagram today, and judges are receiving threats to themselves and their families—I’ve been in second-hand contact with the judge from Argentina, and it’s what he said.

I think this has gone too far. And I’m sure it going to spill into future judgements of Russian gymnasts. I’d assume some judges would like to make an example out of them.

this is horrid. social media has literally ruined the world.

 

[ines42575]

Dina is in pain just for walking, and can't even sleep on her back anymore, she will fly to Germany in 3 weeks to see if surgery is needed.

As for Arina, she will likely go to the World Championships alongside Lala, but I don't see her pulling through another olympic cycle. After all, we must remenber they turned senior in 2013.

Also, with the 2022-2024 COP they won't be Russia's top 1 and 2 gymnasts. Kramarenko (if she survives her injuries) is set to be the main gymnast of the team. But things will be intereesting as Popova will turn senior next year, and if Barsukova manages her well, we will probably see her in Paris 2024.

 

[breadstal]

A nice comparison between Arina's and Linoy's ribbon performances. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrlQfTbudbM&ab_channel=VladaAverina

 

[[email protected]]

Linoy privated her account on Instagram today, and judges are receiving threats to themselves and their families—I’ve been in second-hand contact with the judge from Argentina, and it’s what he said.

I think this has gone too far. And I’m sure it going to spill into future judgements of Russian gymnasts. I’d assume some judges would like to make an example out of them.

Now I can see where you are coming from. A judge from Argentina? It is widely discussed in Russian media that it was the judge from Argentina who put Dina on the 9th place. 9th place! All those numbers after that for me personally have 0 meaning same as imaginary death threats from Russian housewives. And I would not confuse the threats with something like "burn in hell". The latter is bad manners for sure but these are emotions that one should keep to oneself and not a real threat.

RG is different from figure skating. When we compare this one with Yuna-Adelina situation we could open the Sochi protocols and see that Adelina's BV was 4 points higher than Yuna's. Well, she jumped 1 more triple. And the whole further discussion was around Yuna's superiority in quality, artistry, etc. so that this objective 4 point shortage was "nothing" and should have been overcome by subjective marks. Here Ashram fans talk about the difficulty, well, about objective stuff. Where are the protocols? How was this difficulty assessed by different judges? How could Dina get the 9th place (if the allegation is true)? These are the questions that the public want the answers to.

Actually it did not take long to find. Here is the table which is discussed in Russia now. Argentinian judge really put Dina on the 9th place for body difficulty. So, we have either gross mistakes from Viner and Russian RG - I would say astronomic mistakes or that was some really suspicious judging.

 

[coldblueeyes]

Now I can see where you are coming from. A judge from Argentina? It is widely discussed in Russian media that it was the judge from Argentina who put Dina on the 9th place. 9th place! All those numbers after that for me personally have 0 meaning same as imaginary death threats from Russian housewives. And I would not confuse the threats with something like "burn in hell". The latter is bad manners for sure but these are emotions that one should keep to oneself and not a real threat.

RG is different from figure skating. When we compare this one with Yuna-Adelina situation we could open the Sochi protocols and see that Adelina's BV was 4 points higher than Yuna's. Well, she jumped 1 more triple. And the whole further discussion was around Yuna's superiority in quality, artistry, etc. so that this objective 4 point shortage was "nothing" and should have been overcome by subjective marks. Here Ashram fans talk about the difficulty, well, about objective stuff. Where are the protocols? How was this difficulty assessed by different judges? How could Dina get the 9th place (if the allegation is true)? These are the questions that the public want the answers to.

Actually it did not take long to find. Here is the table which is discussed in Russia now. Argentinian judge really put Dina on the 9th place for body difficulty. So, we have either gross mistakes from Viner and Russian RG - I would say astronomic mistakes or that was some really suspicious judging.

View attachment 4114

Do you know how to count BDs? Dina had some of the lowest BD value in the final. It’s just is what it is. I’m not sure why people are up in arms about that.

Edit: just coming back here to confirm these scores. At least according to me. Can’t see where they would give here more in BD, because they gave her everything they could.

 

[[email protected]]

Do you know how to count BDs? Dina had some of the lowest BD value in the final. It’s just is what it is. I’m not sure why people are up in arms about that.

I don't know how to count BD in RG. But I think Viner, Kabaeva, Mamun can. All of them say that it is nonsense. And yes it is counter intuitive that the multiple worlds' winner has the 9th difficulty out of 10 finalists. In 9 cases out of 10 when something grossly contradicts common sense it is wrong. So unless there is a level headed and unbiased analysis (sorry, after you referred to Argentian judge I cannot take yours for one) which proves that Dina was behind everyone but one weakest girl for me it was suspicious judging, to put it mildly.

 

[coldblueeyes]

I don't know how to count BD in RG. But I think Viner, Kabaeva, Mamun can. All of them say that it is nonsense. And yes it is counter intuitive that the multiple worlds' winner has the 9th difficulty out of 10 finalists. In 9 cases out of 10 when something grossly contradicts common sense it is wrong. So unless there is a level headed and unbiased analysis (sorry, after you referred to Argentian judge I cannot take yours for one) which proves that Dina was behind everyone but one weakest girl for me it was suspicious judging, to put it mildly.

She wasn’t the weakest. Her BD was, that’s roughly one third of her difficulty score. She wanted to make up with ADs, but that might have not been enough.
But I guess my analysis is not good enough. Mine and the Olympic judges.

 

[ruga]

I don't know how to count BD in RG. But I think Viner, Kabaeva, Mamun can. All of them say that it is nonsense. And yes it is counter intuitive that the multiple worlds' winner has the 9th difficulty out of 10 finalists. In 9 cases out of 10 when something grossly contradicts common sense it is wrong. So unless there is a level headed and unbiased analysis (sorry, after you referred to Argentian judge I cannot take yours for one) which proves that Dina was behind everyone but one weakest girl for me it was suspicious judging, to put it mildly.

BDs are only a small part of the score, ADs are also equally, if not more important. The difference between her and first place was only 0.6, which is essentially one mistake in elements, maybe incomplete rotation or incorrect apparatus handling. Or maybe she did cheaper body elements in exchange of better AD score (where she was first in ribbon event).

 

[coldblueeyes]

Dina has been lowering her BD for years now because she just can’t do the more difficult things anymore. So I’m not sure why are people surprised here. I’m not sure what else they are protesting either.

She didn’t even compete cleanly in her other apparatus. She lost a bunch of ADs, had medium to large faults in BD execution, in routines that weren’t even the most difficult. This result was not a surprise. It had to happen someday.

 

[gliese]

What exactly did she do disrespectful at the medal ceremony? I googled and found the clip below and I don't see anything disrespectful. I mean for starters let's be clear 75% or more of her face it covered in a mask. Does she seemed thrilled, no, she looks upset but that's understandable and nothing disrespectful looking based on what I could see, based on what I can see she had been crying and was either trying to not cry on the podium or trying to contain the amount of tears. When I think of a disrespectful medal ceremony I think 1994 Worlds from surya bonaley where she initially refused to get on the podium and while on the podium almost immediately took the medal off her neck. Look at that then look at Averina at the Olympics, not even close to disrespectful in my opinion.

Again, I said I couldn't find the clip but if something had happened then it would have been disrespectful. I know it wasn't clear as I said it after I made my first statement, but yeah that's what I meant.

Dina has been lowering her BD for years now because she just can’t do the more difficult things anymore. So I’m not sure why are people surprised here. I’m not sure what else they are protesting either.

She didn’t even compete cleanly in her other apparatus. She lost a bunch of ADs, had medium to large faults in BD execution, in routines that weren’t even the most difficult. This result was not a surprise. It had to happen someday.

People seem to think that ribbon is the only event that matters. Seems to be a pattern. One of my best friends is an elite rhythmic gymnast and she's strong a ribbon but not so great at ball and people will always say "but your ribbon was so strong why didn't you win?"

 

[gliese]

Not everyone has the mental strength to show something that they don't feel inside. Most of the time the smiles of the favorites who lose are fake smiles made for cameras. It isn't necessary respect, it's PR.

I question how someone without that mental strength could have become an Olympic silver medalist. Sports are tough and are more mental than physical. 90% of your results are from your mental game and that is what sets the top athletes apart. Imagine if Dina fell apart every time she was upset and was unable to perform a routine. She wouldn't have made it to the Olympics, period. She definately has the mental strength. And now that I've seen the clips, they prove it. She held it together until after.