Sasha. Comeback. Believe it.

[nylynnr]

Well, mathman, as we say in my neighborhood, oy vey is mir.

I'll put it this way, then. On the limited basis of the primary source of confusion in the latter part of this thread -- i.e., how it came to pass that Sasha Cohen (and Shen and Zhao) got two GP's -- I think the announcement I referenced is clear.

 

[PolymerBob]

It might not be much fun, but there is a mundane explanation. Maybe Sasha doesn't get 2 events. Maybe it was a simple typo. Didn't they list a pairs team as a dance team?

 

[Sylvia]

Maybe it was a simple typo. Didn't they list a pairs team as a dance team?

Not on the ISU site. That was a typo on the USFS site (Navarro/Bommentre mistakenly listed as a pairs team for TEB):
http://www.usfigureskating.org/Story.asp?id=43093

ETA: Mathman, re. your latest post above, I think the bottom line is that the ISU doesn't publish the detailed GP selection procedures beyond the Technical Announcement because they don't believe the fans need to know such picky details.

 

[Particle Man]

With all due respect, fairly early on in the Technical Announcement it details no skater or couple will have more than 2 [senior] Grand Prix assignments.

Yeah yeah. I never meant to contest the 2 maximum which applies to EVERYONE across the board. I'm saying any individual skater doesn't have a personal maximum. I was actually going to spell that out, but I have been trying to avoid unnecessary detail...

There has been so much discussion on the board about this issue, and so many posters expressing confusion, IMO it would be best for interested people to simply read the ISU communications on the topic.

Judge by actions, not words. If they are ignoring the rules in special circumstances like these, then really what does it matter what the rules say?

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

http://isu.sportcentric.net/db//files/serve.php?id=1403

Bottom of page 3 to top of page 4, section 2.2, paragraph h).

It reads to me, that the Host Fed can invite someone not included in the procedures. The USFS did invite Sasha. We all know that and that and it is not a problem for one event. How did her name become part of the selection for another draw? I don't think that directive covers that.

My interest here is not in Sasha but in the system. When I said way back in these pages that Sasha would get 2 GPs on the basis of her Silver medal at the 2006 Olympics. Many of the more knowlegeable posters replied quite quickly that it would be against the rules and that the Olys have nothing to do with it yet one has only to look at S/Z and Sasha to note that the Oly medal does in a clandestine way has very much to do with it! Would it be given to Jenny Kirk? I think not. No Oly medal.

I strongly feel that Sasha will get to the Olys by the USFS selection committee.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

ETA: Mathman, re. your latest post above, I think the bottom line is that the ISU doesn't publish the detailed GP selection procedures beyond the Technical Announcement because they don't believe the fans need to know such picky details.

That does not surprise me, picky details have the meat on them and fans should NOT KNOW the details

 

[Mathman]

It reads to me, that the Host Fed can invite someone not included in the procedures. The USFS did invite Sasha. We all know that and that and it is not a problem for one event. How did her name become part of the selection for another draw? I don't think that directive covers that.

The same direcive also gives the French Federation, the host federation of TEB, the right to invite Sasha, subject to the approval of the ISU Event Coordination Group.

In section 2.2 h), where it says "each host ISU member" they just mean, whoever is putting on the event. It does not refer just to skaters from the same country.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

I can understand France inviting 3 of their own and one outsider making the invitations total 4.

But what I was asking is how did Sasha get into the draw? i didn't read the host Fed could add another name not appearing on the eligibles and then that name would also be put in the draw.

It's like I invite Sasha, and at the same time I offer her to anyone of you. This is written?

 

[janetfan]

That does not surprise me, picky details have the meat on them and fans should NOT KNOW the details

Does it really make any difference if the fans know every detail of every negociation that goes on with and between every federation? Would the selection process change?
Some posts have said "Sasha must be in shock getting TEB coz it comes early."
My hunch is that Sasha asked for it and it makes some sense. She will have a decent amount of time between TEB and SA to make adjustments on her programs. She will even have time for a break if she is fatigued or bothered with an injury.
I was more in agreement of some of the previous messages that acknowledged some dealing and trading off goes on between the federations. These quotes of rule 23- 01, paragragh B, subsection 21 can go on forever. The simple truth is that only the ones who make these "deals" know how this is done.
I am sure they follow a general set of rules - and then each federations goes after what they want skater by skater and event by event and do the best they can for their own federations.

 

[Mathman]

I can understand France inviting 3 of their own and one outsider making the invitations total 4.

No, the total number of invitations was 12. Everyone there is an invitee of the host federation (France in this case). Three French skaters were invited, and various numbers (not to exceed three from any country) from other countries.

Let's say the draw went, Russia, U.S.A, France, Japan, Canada, China. After Russia picked Alissa Czisny and USA picked Funie Suguri, now it's France's turn. France says, Sasha Cohen.

Everybody says, what?! Sasha is not eligible. We need a ruling from The Committee. The Committee says, yes, Sasha is eligible . France choses Sasha. When their turn comes around again they pick Caroline, etc.

Like the college draft in football.

(Actually, of course, it is all arranged in advance. The USFSA appeals to the Committee to allow Sasha's name to be put into play and at the same time shops her around to the other feds.)

 

[Tonichelle]

how did Sasha become available? she announced her return to competition...

 

[wishmaker]

Thanks, MATHMAN for the layman explanation. It's very well understood. So, no matter how one will try to find logic with all the rulings/inviting of the competitions, Sasha is listed already. I do hope she can do competitions not shows as she is in for a lot of compliments and criticisms, and the mere psyche of it all, she may need another doctor's certification for whatever reason she needs if/when she backs out.

 

[PolymerBob]

With all the complaining of back room dealing, there is something else I don't get. I've read that all skaters want to go to Paris. I don't actually know if this is true, but it seems logical that it would be a highly requested event. So I'm not just asking how Sasha got a 2nd event - I'm asking how she got PARIS.

 

[janetfan]

With all the complaining of back room dealing, there is something else I don't get. I've read that all skaters want to go to Paris. I don't actually know if this is true, but it seems logical that it would be a highly requested event. So I'm not just asking how Sasha got a 2nd event - I'm asking how she got PARIS.

Finaly someone brings that up. Yes, Paris is always at the top of the list. How did Sasha manage to get it? What a great mystery!
I wasn't complaining about backroom dealing. A diverse group like the ISU couldn't put together the Grand Prix without it.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Does it really make any difference if the fans know every detail of every negociation that goes on with and between every federation? Would the selection process change?

I understand your concern that Sasha should skate by any means. Fans are blinded to any adverse discussion about such a skater, but you do not seem to understand that there are fans who are interested in Figure Skating Rules and Procedures. You really don't even have to bother about these posts with regard to the organization itself. And there are plenty of threads on sasha for you to play with. Enjoy them.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

how did Sasha become available? she announced her return to competition...

Cutting off a quote is a no no. It probably read How did Sasha become available for two GPs, but you didn't finish the thought. Some said it was because she is an Oly silver medalist, which I had said very early on even before the Assignments came out. However, I was bombarded with she can't have two because it is against the rules. There seems to be some news in that last ISU directive that allows other Feds, besides the parent Fed to offer an invitation to a returning Oly If the Olys have nothing to do with the GPs as was pointed out to me, I have to ask: Would Jenny Kirk get the same treatment as Sasha if she announced her return to competitive skating. Of course not, she would have to go through regionals, etc.

The question now is: Does a returning Olympic podium skater have influence in the GP process, after a long period of non competitive skating?

I thought it did before the latest ISU directive, and now I am positive even if one has to read between the lines.

 

[janetfan]

I understand your concern that Sasha should skate by any means. Fans are blinded to any adverse discussion about such a skater, but you do not seem to understand that there are fans who are interested in Figure Skating Rules and Procedures. You really don't even have to bother about these posts with regard to the organization itself. And there are plenty of threads on sasha for you to play with. Enjoy them.

Thanks for the suggestion Joe. Actually you are right. I am no longer interested in whether a written rule exists that allowed Sasha a second GP event. Because it is already a done deal. I do have curiousity about the rules though. Just as I have an understanding about the necessity for some wheeling and dealing within the ISU.
Since the title of this thread is "Sasha Comeback Believe it" I have been posting here saying that I do believe it. That I also believe that within the framework of the ISU selection process for selecting skaters for GP events there exists an understanding about returning skaters - whether from injuries or in Sasha's case returning from the Pro ranks. Since I firmly believe this my interest regarding the "rules" is to see if someone can show any rule that would prohibit a skater from participating. So far I don't think I have seen it. So we seem to have the opposite viewpoint on this. Sorry if that bothers you.

 

[janetfan]

.
Like the college draft in football.
(Actually, of course, it is all arranged in advance. The USFSA appeals to the Committee to allow Sasha's name to be put into play and at the same time shops her around to the other feds.)

Thanks for that explanation mm. I think that is about as clear as it can get when trying to explain some of the mechanisms of a complicated procedure like the selection of skaters for the GP's.

 

[nylynnr]

Now that there's an understanding of the procedures, the next question is, how did Sasha happen to get Paris. I would look to which French skaters, who will be recovering from an off-ice condition, got Skate America, which as one of the latter events in the fall the French Federation likely requested for them. In addition -- and this is pure speculation on my part -- Eric Bompard, the maker of cashmire sweaters, probably wanted as glamorous a field as it could get.

As why other skaters didn't get two events -- some skaters don't want two Grand Prix, some skaters want a specific Grand Prix and don't want another GP too close to it, some federations are looking to get certain talented skaters out there and are holding their options open with TBDs, etc. I guess the bottom line is all of these details are so endless it's impossible to put them in a document for fans to read, but the bones of the selection process are out there.

 

[janetfan]

I don't know the French skaters well enough but it is easy to understand they may have a skater or team in need of a placement later in the season.
A three way deal is also possible. What about S/Z? Did they get SA? It makes sense they would do COC and then maybe want another late event. Canada may not have wanted them but USA probably didn't mind. There could be many possibilities.
My favorite line of BS here is that Sasha has no intention of really skating and will pull out. If that is the case - then where better than Paris for a little shopping and r&r