Sasha's comments about competition

[anniemg]

Something just doesn't add up about Sasha's behavior. She says she's in shape when she isn't. She claims she just wants to have a great performance at the Olympics, and never mind about the medals, but then she comes out for the long program looking completely terrified, instead of excited to skate her program. She says she's fully prepared for the Olympics, but then she completely loses confidence after falling on a couple jumps in the warmup. (This in particular amazed me because skaters fall *all the time* in practice and obviously should be experienced in getting past such problems.) She says she enjoys competing but then freezes up nearly every single time she has a chance to win a big competition (and also admits she feels more comortable when facing lower-ranked skaters). There is basically just a huge disconnect between what Sasha's saying and what she's doing. It is very strange.

I think she wants to believe what she says and also she wants to look ready, confident etc. Yet when the time comes she doesnt apply what she's saying. Hey, it's not easy!!!!!

Anyway i'm no psychologist...and I(like everyone else) have never sit down to talk with her so I have no idea whats going on into her head....

 

[Dee4707]

Actually, I haven't been to a skating competition. Which comp was this, though?

Remember that it's one thing to do it in practice, another to do it under pressure. I still don't buy it- just because she can do it in practice does NOT mean she has it in her to do it under pressure. I think people just expect too much out of her. And I think it's getting to her, too- she's been more vocal recently about it, it seems.

Maybe even she doesn't know what's going on. That's possible, you know.

Red Dog, the comp was Skate Canada 2003. I understand that about doing it in practice and not when it counts. I was just pointing something out to you that if she was the same person that practices and doing the comps, she would be winning everything.

Dee

 

[Mafke]

She has all the talent in the world; everyone knows that. ...
There is basically just a huge disconnect between what Sasha's saying and what she's doing. It is very strange.

I'm very suspicious about things that 'everyone knows' they're so often wrong or not entirely true.

I think Cohen is very talented, but I've never bought into the 'best ever' hype. She's very flexible and has a natural feel for choreography and very good musicality. But she's her edges have always been iffy and she's just not a jumping technician at all. The skater that she reminds me most of is Jill Trenary, wonderful posture and did most things really, really well and often wonderful to watch, but she often had problems with jumps in competition and was only rarely clean. Her arguably best ever program (1990 US LP) had some unpretty landings. Her world title was largely the result of her main competition (Ito) having disastrous figures.

I think so far Cohen's lived up to her potential very well, she hasn't lived up to the hype about her potential. A lot of people thought of her as a sure multi-titled world champion, I always thought of her as probable (multi) medalist who could win worlds or olys if everything went her way, which it hasn't yet. I've only ever really, really enjoyed her skating recently, esp the last 3 minutes of her olys LP, wonderul commitment and a really great performance.

As for what she says, haven't you ever heard of lip service? It's not exactly PC for a skater to say "I like the idea of having a title, but I'm not so crazy about competing, I really prefer exhibitions."

 

[R.D.]

I think so far Cohen's lived up to her potential very well, she hasn't lived up to the hype about her potential.

(emphasis added by me)

That is probably the best way to put it. Everyone read this.

 

[dancindiva03]

Don't worry i'm not going to try to convince you otherwise - your hatred of her is clear from this (but mostly) from other threads. Honestly i don't care for her skating but hatred like yours will never be turned around.

Ant

You Sasha fans are so sickening, whenever anyone dares to say that the sun does not shine out Ms. Cohen's arse you call it "hatred." I dislike her skating, and I dislike her attitude, and dislike all the hype that she and her camp start, but I do not hate her as a person.

 

[Mathman]

Dancingdiva, I think it is the persistence with which you post your dislike of her skating, your dislike of her attitude, your dislike of all the hype, that has given people the impression that you have some kind of problem with Sasha.

I think everyone knows by now how you feel. It is really not necessary to repeat it over and over on every thread.

Just saying...

MM

 

[antmanb]

It also doesn't help if you don't have the jumps down pat....when the nerves kick in how can you expect to do it all?

Well from what i'm hearing, she does have the jumps down pat...in practice. And since you can't recreate the atmosphere of nervousness in practice, how can you train for it?

Ant

 

[antmanb]

You Sasha fans are so sickening, whenever anyone dares to say that the sun does not shine out Ms. Cohen's arse you call it "hatred." I dislike her skating, and I dislike her attitude, and dislike all the hype that she and her camp start, but I do not hate her as a person.

The fact you think i'm Sasha fan really makes me laugh - i actively dislike her skating and don't think she's that musical - i've written many posts criticising her skating. The difference is i'm not a hateful vile person like you clearly are spewing your vitriol about her all over this forum.

Ant

 

[antmanb]

Dancingdiva, I think it is the persistence with which you post your dislike of her skating, your dislike of her attitude, your dislike of all the hype, that has given people the impression that you have some kind of problem with Sasha.

I think everyone knows by now how you feel. It is really not necessary to repeat it over and over on every thread.

Just saying...

MM

How do you manage to put things so reasonably MM...i give you a full 10 for diplomacy!

Ant

 

[Mafke]

Well from what i'm hearing, she does have the jumps down pat...in practice. And since you can't recreate the atmosphere of nervousness in practice, how can you train for it?

"Sasha, let's do a run through of your long program, every time you stumble or fall I'm going to throw one of these hammers at you."

A beebee gun might work just as well.

 

[R.D.]

"Sasha, let's do a run through of your long program, every time you stumble or fall I'm going to throw one of these hammers at you."

A beebee gun might work just as well.

 

[R.D.]

Well from what i'm hearing, she does have the jumps down pat...in practice. And since you can't recreate the atmosphere of nervousness in practice, how can you train for it?

Ant

Well, some people are made for it, others aren't. At this point I think I know where SC stands.

At this point (and I stress AT THIS POINT), competition is not for her. It's not a bash, not a put-down, just an observation of mine. Could be way off base, or I could be right on. But it's JMO.

Somehow I think I'll be very surprised if she chooses to come back next year.

 

[antmanb]

"Sasha, let's do a run through of your long program, every time you stumble or fall I'm going to throw one of these hammers at you."

A beebee gun might work just as well.

I think beebee gun is safer...one run through and she might not get up again if it was hammers!!

Ant

 

[Rgirl]

Well, some people are made for it, others aren't. At this point I think I know where SC stands.

At this point (and I stress AT THIS POINT), competition is not for her. It's not a bash, not a put-down, just an observation of mine. Could be way off base, or I could be right on. But it's JMO.

Somehow I think I'll be very surprised if she chooses to come back next year.

Katerina Witt has been saying basically the same thing, that you're either born to be consistent or your not. Although I don't think it's quite that black and white, I think Witt also knows she's got to get it into a soundbite.

I think that, like almost everything involving people, the ability to be consistent with your jumps in figure skating runs on a standard bell curve. Some people, such as Michelle, are at least three standard deviations on the positive side of innate consistency. Good training only made her better.

Others hover around the mean, ie, average. They have a certain amount of innate ability to be consistent, but they need the right training and great determination to make the most of it. I'd put Nancy Kerrigan in that category.

I'd put Sasha about one or two standard deviations toward the negative tail of the bell curve. She wasn't born with much innate ability to be consistent with her jumps in competition; she started relatively late in skating, about nine years old, which didn't help; and it seems she didn't get the best technical training on her jumps for her in order to make the most out of what little innate talent she had to be consistent on her jumps. Also, I get the feeling that until the '03/04 season, Cohen felt the consistency would come if she just kept working at it and found the right coach. I think her motivation was more external than internal until '03/04. Therefore, to finally realize sometime in '03/04 that her jump consistency wasn't going to just come with time and practice, and that the determination to do so needed to come from inside her and not from finding "the right coach" (I'm paraphrasing what she said in the fluffer on her before '06 Nats), well, let's just say it was too little too late. I find it sad and feel badly for her. She had a tough problem to solve, realized how tough it was too late, and made some critical poor decisions about how to try to solve it. How many of us can say we made great decisions about problems as critical to our success between the ages of 18 and 21?

Still, that's the nature of the sport. I hope her decisions on what to do now result in a better skating situation for her and a happier situation for her personally. Sasha has never seemed to be a happy camper in the eligible ranks. IMO, she is a gorgeous skater with talents that many, many skating fans adore. However, she's missing one key element in order to be truly successful in eligible competition. I, for one, would be sad to see her crumble away with COI the way Nicole Bobek has. OTOH, it took Paul Wylie until he was 27 to win his one significant international meda, the '92 Olympic silver medal, which he was able to use to initiate a phenomenal professional career. However, that was a different era for pro skaters then.

So Sasha is faced with another very difficult and complex decision. Finally, and I hate to even say this, John Nicks is 76 years old. I'm sorry, but I can't help but remember Carlo Fassi dying at Worlds (can't recall the year) when Nicole Bobek was his primary student. Bobek finally seemed to have her act together and a coach with whom she had sympatico. Then, tragically, he died the day before her LP. Angela Nikodinov had a similar situation with her coach Elena Tcherkyskaya (sp?), not to mention many more hardships and tragedies.

I wish Sasha the best.

Rgirl

 

[Mathman]

I'd put Sasha about one or two standard deviations toward the negative tail of the bell curve.

I think that's maybe too severe. But I guess it depends on the population. If you mean among all senior level skaters, to me, Sasha is no worse than average.

Sasha falls about 1.5 times per LP. As far as I can tell by casual observation, this is about par among the performances that I see among all skaters at events like Worlds and the Olympics.

Now if the population is {Sasha, Michelle, Irina, Shizuka}, then yeah, that's a pretty tough consistency standard to measure up to.

MM

 

[soogar]

I'm just curious why everyone says that Sasha and Johnny started figure skating at a late age as an excuse for them not competing well. Both Johnny and Sasha know how to skate and do the jumps; their problems are mental. Plus 9 years old isn't late... Dorothy Hamill started skating at 9 and she had to master compulsories to boot. A late starter is Chad Hedrick and all the other inline skaters competing for speedskating who laced on ice skates in their 20s and are competing very successfully now. Speedskating is a different sport but my belief is that Sasha and Johnny are not hampered by any "learning curve" b/c they laced on their skates a few years later than other skaters. They have the requisite skills, it's the head game that's eluding them.

 

[MKFSfan]

Jenny started skating at 9 years old, after quitting gymnastics-she was a level 5 gymnast.

However, Sasha started skating at age 7. She did gymnastics beforehand, too. Not sure what level gymnast she was.

What is the "appropriate" age to start skating? Michelle was 5 years old. It seems many get serious around that age, although some start at 3.

 

[Rgirl]

I'm just curious why everyone says that Sasha and Johnny started figure skating at a late age as an excuse for them not competing well. Both Johnny and Sasha know how to skate and do the jumps; their problems are mental. Plus 9 years old isn't late... Dorothy Hamill started skating at 9 and she had to master compulsories to boot. A late starter is Chad Hedrick and all the other inline skaters competing for speedskating who laced on ice skates in their 20s and are competing very successfully now. Speedskating is a different sport but my belief is that Sasha and Johnny are not hampered by any "learning curve" b/c they laced on their skates a few years later than other skaters. They have the requisite skills, it's the head game that's eluding them.

It depends on the person, depends on the coach, depends on circumstances. I can't even find a consistent record of when Sasha started skating. From what I've read, she started skating some after a skating party at age 7 but her mother wanted her to concentrate on gymnastics, which she was already doing. However, then Galina, Sasha's mom and a former gymnast, felt today's gymnastics were too brutal on young bodies. Sasha liked skating and so at age 9, Sasha got her first coach. I'm not sure whether John Nicks was her first coach or if she trained with a "B" level coach for a while to see if she had the aptitude. Anyway, soon she was being coached by Nicks.

The only reason 9 is considered late today is that skaters are expected to have the 2Axel and all their triples except the 3Axel by age 12. Nine to 12 is plenty of time for some; not enough for others. For a while during the '03/04 season there were a lot of posts speculating on whether Sasha's gymnastics background hurt as well as helped her skating. I'll only scratch the surface, but obviously line and flexibility was an advantage, but some people, including myself, wondered if the way the body is trained to move in gymnastics--lots of pushing and punching forwards for tumbling--might have been a detriment. People also wondered if Sasha's extreme flexibility also hindered her jumps. Of course it was all speculation.

When Dorothy Hamill skated, all the jumps were doubles. Yes, she had to learn figures. Dorothy was fortunate in that she had a natural aptitude for both jumps and figures, and also had good line, great spins, and beautiful overall presentation, which in the '70s was rare. However, I can't imagine Dorothy, with her body type, having the ability to be competitive over the last 10 years no matter how early she started skating.

It's also entirely possible that had Sasha started skating seriously at age 3 to 5 that she still would have the problems with jump consistency she has today.

Both Johnny and Sasha know how to skate and do the jumps; their problems are mental....It's the head game that's eluding them.

That's only your opinion, Soogar. Whatever the cause(s) of Sasha and Johnny's problems in competition, anything anybody says will only ever be opinion. There is no measuring device that can prove their consistency problems in competition are, in fact, due to X, Y, and/or Z.

Rgirl

 

[R.D.]

I'd put Sasha about one or two standard deviations toward the negative tail of the bell curve. She wasn't born with much innate ability to be consistent with her jumps in competition

I agree with MM. I think that's a bit too harsh. I would put her right smack in the middle, or maybe even a little bit ABOVE average. Yes, you heard me right. She's more consistent than a lot of you people out there give her credit for. There are LOTS of other skaters I see that struggle a lot more with their jumps. THOSE are the skaters I would put below the mean. For example, Alissa Czisny. She probably belongs IMO in the same place you put Cohen. And Carolina Kostner- definitely below the average...look what happened to her this season...

Probably the only time you'll hear me defend her. lol

 

[Mafke]

First, I'm so incredibly stupid (out of the loop) that I didn't realize Cohen had done gymnastics even though I've thought she had a gymnast's and not a skater's body (for _years_) now. On the other hand, I though Eferemenko(sp?) looked like a pairs skater a long time before I found out that's how she started and achieved her greatest success.

Second, Cohen's well above the average in landing jumps, she's just not at the very rarified Kwan, Slute average (who is besides Kwan and Slute)? For that matter, neither is Arakawa (who's skating I absolutely luurrrrve) or S Hughes (whose skating I was okay with, but not crazy about).