Scoring bias at the national level

[el henry]

As for football, one thing the instant replay cameras have brought to the sport is a new appreciation for the officiating. It used to be that on every call half the stadium yelled "booooo" and the other half yelled "shut up, crybabies." Now that the play is shown on the huge jumbotron in slo motion from several angles, even the roudies can see that the referees get it right 85 % nof the time, with 12% unclear and only 3% wrong.

Not that it stops them from shouting Boo and crybaby anyway.



Well, I have to sign off now. The University of Michigan boys (aka the Victor Valiants) will soon be performing in their maize and blue costumres to their fight song in the beautiful flowered setting of the Rose Bowl.

Do Michigan fans love thier beefy lads? The Big House (UM stadium) has sold out its 109,000 seat stadium for 313 straight home games going back to 1975. $$$

I don't think I said "American sports fans". The people I know. All my friends and family and my little cousin, if I had one, too.

Now excuse me while I watch manly men, firefighters construction workers and policemen and working class guys in real life, Eagles fans all, dressed in enough spangles and sequins and feathers to drown *any* figure skater, play banjos and saxes and dance.

Philadelphia's own New Years Day tradition, the Mummers Parade:

2025 Philadelphia Mummers Parade Livestream

Watch the 2025 Philadelphia Mummers Parade on-demand, including all the string band performances.

www.wfmz.com

 

[Rebecca Moose]

what's the point of comparing football to figure skating? that may have been a relevant comparison--in 1994! but those days are LONG gone.

 

[Andrea82]

OT, but a similar case just happened yesterday in a diffrent sport, American football. With 23 seconds left the Detorit ions scored on a two-point conversion to put them ahead ny 1 point. But the referee made a wrong call which negated the play and gave the game to the other team. Today it was announced that the entire officiating crew was demoted by the NFL and relieved of their duties for the comong playoffs.

I don't watch American footaball, but I think that case -as I read it- seems more similar to cases when judges give marks considered erroneous because of wrong application of rules regardless of national biases.
This is dealt by ISU through the Technical Committees (based also on findings from Officials Assessment Commission). There is a number of maximum acceptable errors for each competitions based on the number of competitors. If a judge accumulates too many mistakes, it receives an Assessment procedure. The Assessment is valid for 2 more seasons. If the judge continues to make a number of mistakes over the acceptable threshold, he/she receives further Assessments. At Assessment 3, he/she is demoted.

Assessments are not usually announced by ISU. But I remember a judge from Azerbijan being demoted for too many assessments (it was Assessment 4 at the time) in the run up of Turin Olympics (Azerbaijan was drawn to be on the panel).

 

[Mathman]

what's the point of comparing football to figure skating? that may have been a relevant comparison--in 1994! but those days are LONG gone.

I don't recall such comparisons being made in 1994 -- or ever, frankly.

Philadelphia's own New Years Day tradition, the Mummers Parade

Not to brag, but I have been in the Mummers Parade and also in the Rose Bowl Parade. Also in the Miss America pageant (Miss Arizona was robbed!)

 

[Mathman]

I don't watch American footaball, but I think that case -as I read it- seems more similar to cases when judges give marks considered erroneous because of wrong application of rules regardless of national biases.

One similarity is that the sanctioned referee arrogantly denies tthat he made a nistake, still insisting that it was player #70 not player #68 that did so-and-so. Video replays and overwhelming eye-witness testimony -- they are all wrong and I am right!

 

[Mathman]

I think it would be a good thing if TV commentators would talk in more detail about the usual scoring of the elements and components, pointing out the (correct) ways that the judges and tech panels have applied the rules.

One area that the commentators do a pretty good job of is under-rotations and downgrades. They usually show replays of the most important jumping elements and say things like, "This will be reviewd to see if she got all the way around or if she landed short and completed the rotation on the ice." Or, "This jump will get full credit in base value, but the mistake on the landing will cost her in grade of execution."

I think it would be pretty hard for them to give the audience a dtailed explanation of why a flying change foot combination spin got a level 3 instead of a level 4.

By the way, in watching all the Nathalie Krieg vids on Youtube, I notice that the commentators universally say things like, Well, she'll get a 4.9 in tech for that, but the presentation mark will be much higher, Then when the marks actually come up (4.9 and 5.2 or 4.9 and 5,6) they say, "Hmmm, the 2nd mark wasn't as high as I expected" or else, "yes, see how the 2nd mark went up. That reflects ....."

 

[Mathematician]

It's the reputation, though. Just talked about it with my sister and mother again this christmas, they don't want to watch figure skating because of the scoring. They don't get it and since they know it's often not done according to the rules they don't care to learn.
Similar to me not being interested to learn the levels and everything in ice dance, since I know it's basically not worth it if the judges do as they please anyway.
They or me would never watch the NFL either, though.

I'm not sure the judges just "do as they please" that often. Its quite rare at least it seems that way to me. I dont see it as a valid excuse whatsoever for avoiding figure skating.

Throughout the Russian season at least I can only remember 5 strong cases of abnormal scoring and in the long run none of them mattered at all.

I watched some international tournaments and didnt notice any crazy scoring either. Of course Kaori getting lenient calls for instance but ultimately it didnt matter anyways either.

I get the point of this thread is to come up with ideas for when it does happen blatantly. But its not a prominent enough issue to avoid the sport. I know for certain the judging in FS is significantly more consistent and sensical than any combat sport and even most big-money conventional sports like basketball.

 

[Mathman]

It's the reputation, though.

That is the whole dilemma in four words. Somewhere along the line figure skating got the reputation of being more beauty pageant than sport, with the judges giving out prizes by whim.

my sister and mother ... don't want to watch figure skating because of the scoring. They don't get it and since they know it's often not done according to the rules they don't care to learn.

That is our catch 22. People don't care to learn anything about the scoring, but they (somehow) know or intuit that whatever the rules may be the judges are not following them. The IJS was intended to address this problem, but if the goal was to make people "care enough to learn the rules," it seems to have had the oppposite effect. Likewise, I can't imagine that introducing high-tech measuring devices will have any effect on making people interested enough to learn the rules

I, for instance, am very interested and care a lot. Even so, I struggle to understand and keep up with all the rules.

 

[Rebecca Moose]

That is our catch 22. People don't care to learn anything about the scoring, but they (somehow) know or intuit that whatever the rules may be the judges are not following them. The IJS was intended to address this problem, but if the goal was to make people "care enough to learn the rules," it seems to have had the oppposite effect. Likewise, I can't imagine that introducing high-tech measuring devices will have any effect on making people interested enough to learn the rules

if the goal is to grow the sport and get more casuals onboard -- which is needed for the sport's survival-- by far the number one thing that needs to change is to make figure skating programs more accessible and relevant to today's culture. this means eliminating leveled spins and those awful leveled footwork sequences in the LP. coaches and choreographers and skaters also must be bolder, get with the times and pick more modern and upbeat music and actually project to the crowd and have the judges recognize that in the scoring.

 

[Mathematician]

coaches and choreographers and skaters also must be bolder, get with the times and pick more modern and upbeat music and actually project to the crowd and have the judges recognize that in the scoring.

They say never underestimate your audience. You dont need to dumb down the sport. Nobody is going to start watching skating because they see a fun dance on their page - they will just give it a like and keep scrolling. People are already drowned with that kind of content on social media and are utterly jaded to it.

You need to do the opposite, you need to move people; bring them out of society and show them something real.

Valieva's Wednesday exhibition went viral, but we saw no influx of FS engagement at all. There also have been plenty, lets say "immodest" exhibitions that naturally have millions of views (ones I didnt even know of, but I just checked YouTube view statistics) but to the same effect. However what actually resulted in long term FS engagement for example was Lipnitskaya's Schindler's list. Yes, a relevant theme at the time, but for the same reason the movie itself was popular beyond anything else pandering to the status quo: it meant something unlike Valieva's Wednesday (not that the latter was "bad", but just speaking in regards to fan-harvesting here).

Otherwise, skating is far from dying. The main reason people watch a sport en mass is because their country has a horse in the race. To us in the west skating seems irrelevant to mainstream but in Russia & Japan its still massive. Most people I know in Canada probably dont even know rhythmic gymnastics exists at all, but in Russia now its even more popular than artistic gymnastics.

But what I know, as in, really really know is that "getting with the times" absolutely will kill the sport. People who watch that stuff already have countless pop videos and TikTok dancers. They are flooded with this because every other industry already had that idea. NOBODY is going to watch FS long term just for that.

 

[Mathman]

if the goal is to grow the sport and get more casuals onboard -- which is needed for the sport's survival-- by far the number one thing that needs to change is to make figure skating programs more accessible and relevant to today's culture. this means eliminating leveled spins and those awful leveled footwork sequences in the LP. ...

That is a very interesting observation to me. I have to say that I don't see anything un-hip or "irrelevant to today's culture"about a leveled spin.

But I do think that you are right in that the old "unleveld" spins and spirals that we saw years ago were way more appealing to audiences that what we are seeing now. The all-time audience-thrilling step sequence remains Alexei Yagudin's SP at the 2002 Olympics. Twenty years ago Sasha Cohen brought the house down every time she did a spiral.

 

[gkelly]

if the goal is to grow the sport and get more casuals onboard -- which is needed for the sport's survival

Is it?

What's needed to grow the sport as a sport (as opposed to an entertainment product) is more participation, not more viewership by casual viewers.

Getting more people aware that the sport exists is one part of that process. And bringing in more money through sales of broadcast/streaming rights and event tickets allows federations to fund programs that allow more opportunities for the participants.

So, yes, increasing or at least maintaining viewership is important in that sense.

Funding ice rinks in locations that never had any before, or where interest is already increasing (at beginning/recreational as well as elite-track training) in locations demand for figure skating ice time currently outstrips the ice time available is what will get more skaters in the door.

Some of them will go on to become elite competitors. It's hard to grow an elite competition program without sufficient ice time.

And other skaters will progress beyond first steps on the ice toward beginning figure skating, or low-level figure skating, or mid-level figure skating.

For every skater who tries the sport, that person and their family and some of their friends, etc., will become familiar with what figure skating actually involves and will be more likely to watch whatever competitions or shows are available to them live or via video. And some of them will go on to become active in growing the sport locally at grassroots levels.

So how can skating bridge the gap between viewers seeing "Oh yeah, that's the sport where people turn around four times in midair and pull their foot above their head" to realizing that they too can enjoy gliding on the ice -- and maybe learning some jumps and spins and spirals, etc., for themselves, skating to music and wearing costumes and entering competitions or performing in local shows, if that's the kind of thing that floats their boat, or just sticking with the gliding and additional skill development if that turns out to be their favorite part?

 

[Mathman]

Most people I know in Canada probably dont even know rhythmic gymnastics exists at all, but in Russia now its even more popular than artistic gymnastics.

But you know what was quite popular in Canada? The TV show where hockey stars were partnered with figure skaters in an ice dance/pairs competition.They were pretty good, too.

 

[WittGrittnGrace(y)]

But you know what was quite popular in Canada? The TV show where hockey stars were partnered with figure skaters in an ice dance/pairs competition.They were pretty good, too.

Does it still exist? I never got around to watching it as I hardly watch any television but it sounds great!

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Nobody is going to start watching skating because they see a fun dance on their page

nobody in the US is going to start watching skating because it's impossible to find, period. it's not on youtube, the usfs social media strategy appears to target their content to 65 year old biddies (nothing wrong with that but still). broadcast TV is dead.

at least in the US, figure skating should target similar demos to those that watch drag race -- after all, skating is at its most popular when it's a little camp and dramatic!

So how can skating bridge the gap between viewers seeing "Oh yeah, that's the sport where people turn around four times in midair and pull their foot above their head" to realizing that they too can enjoy gliding on the ice -- and maybe learning some jumps and spins and spirals, etc., for themselves, skating to music and wearing costumes and entering competitions or performing in local shows, if that's the kind of thing that floats their boat, or just sticking with the gliding and additional skill development if that turns out to be their favorite part?

I still stand by what I said earlier -- more engaging programs, reduce the leveled spins and footwork in the LP, and give the skaters more opportunities to express the music in the LP. Who on earth is watching the cookie cutter IJS programs and thinking "oh that looks like fun, maybe I should go to the rink?"

But I do think that you are right in that the old "unleveld" spins and spirals that we saw years ago were way more appealing to audiences that what we are seeing now. The all-time audience-thrilling step sequence remains Alexei Yagudin's SP at the 2002 Olympics. Twenty years ago Sasha Cohen brought the house down every time she did a spiral.

exactly. the long programs all look so similar: the same dreary music, the same convoluted spins, the lack of personality -- give the skaters some freedom in the LP (I would actually leave the short program as is so it is more of a true technical program) and I think more people could be interested in the sport and lead to more revenue and opportunities to get more people interested in skating, like @gkelly eloquently described above

 

[gkelly]

I still stand by what I said earlier -- more engaging programs, reduce the leveled spins and footwork in the LP, and give the skaters more opportunities to express the music in the LP. Who on earth is watching the cookie cutter IJS programs and thinking "oh that looks like fun, maybe I should go to the rink?"

I doubt that makes much difference to whether casual viewers might consider getting on the ice themselves.

If jumping and spinning and skating fast looks like fun to you, you won't care much about program construction, until and unless you get good enough at it to compete.

If moving to music and being artistic or entertaining is of interest to you, then either you already enjoy what you're watching at a casual level, or you probably think that you could do a better job at being creative.

For little kids, it's usually the jumps or the costumes that first catch their attention. And those are the ones who have a hope of someday reaching elite levels.

For adult (or teen) starters, senior level rules are not likely to be relevant to one's own skating. Adults often can be creative in their program construction because they don't always have the exact same skill set as others at their level.

 

[Mathman]

Nobody in the US is going to start watching skating because it's impossible to find, period. it's not on youtube, the usfs social media strategy appears to target their content to 65 year old biddies (nothing wrong with that but still).

Party like its 1974! Direct from youtube, here are Biddy and Baddy, going up against Rodnina and Zaitsev for the world pairs title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fCFc8G4SNM

 

[Rebecca Moose]

Party like its 1974! Direct from youtube, here are Biddy and Baddy, going up against Rodnina and Zaitsev for the world pairs title.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fCFc8G4SNM

dying! well played.

 

[Mathman]

If jumping and spinning and skating fast looks like fun to you, you won't care much about program construction, until and unless you get good enough at it to compete.

If moving to music and being artistic or entertaining is of interest to you, then either you already enjoy what you're watching at a casual level, or you probably think that you could do a better job at being creative.

For little kids, it's usually the jumps or the costumes that first catch their attention. And those are the ones who have a hope of someday reaching elite levels.

We are, however, swimming upostream against a swift current. . In the good old days lots of children and young people got new skates for Chistmas and couldn't wait to get out on the frozen pond in their back yard to try them out, never mind commercial rinks and lessons. Or to hook up with their friends for recreation and socializing at the local lake. Even setting aside the fact that lakes don't freeze over in the winter any more -- I can remember how much fun it was to drive an old jalopy out to the middle of the lake with a long chain attached, get it spinning, and play crack the whip -- different times, different customs.

(That of course was me, my pals Opie and Alfalfa, and our dog Old Yeller.)

 

[Magill]

Is it?

For every skater who tries the sport, that person and their family and some of their friends, etc., will become familiar with what figure skating actually involves and will be more likely to watch whatever competitions or shows are available to them live or via video. And some of them will go on to become active in growing the sport locally at grassroots levels.

Partially true, though, cause it seems to work the other way round just as often, if not more often. Cause to try the sport, a person needs to get interested in it first somehow, and sole availability of the rink in the vicinity of their place of residence, school etc. is not enough to choose figure skating as opposed to simply skating for fun. This interest comes mostly from previously watching competitions or others at the rink practicing FS. As practices tend to be closed (at least where I live) it is mostly about watching comps or shows (or individual programmes) live or broadcast on TV, or streamed online, on YT etc., or seeing other kids showing off their skills during the general ice time.
Also, speaking as a former skating kid and a mother of a skating kid - just as a hobby, no competitive ambitions or plans - and obviously having contacts with many other parents of skating kids, I can confirm initial fascination with costumes plays a role for little girls but in my experience none of the little girls was actually drawn to FS by jumps. I do not say it does not happen, I guess itr might have been a case for some, but I cannot see the grounds to claim it as some general rule. In my experience, it is costumes and the general attraction to dancing or performing on the ice which is the main factor. Spins and steps seem to me much more important attraction factor than jumps. At least for girls. Might be different for boys.
And, of course, parents watching comps and liking what they see is a huge, huge factor in making them willing to pay for skating club, lessons or whatever costs come with it. And in the end of the day, it is parents who make decisions, especially as it involves finances, and it is not a cheap hobby to have fun with.