Senior Pairs Long Program

[Nadine]

PS: I respect Mathman & Joesitz opinions, they are part of the reason I come to this board, they are much older & wiser than me. I may not always agree with them, but I do respect them, which is far more than I can say for some others, huge understatement. But alas this is the way it is in the real world, only difference is that in the real world I have the option to ignore, never to see that person(s) again. Not so here, lol.

 

[Tonichelle]

I wouldn't say wiser... but MM is definitely OLD *runs and hides so MM can't beat her with his cane*

Nadine - aside from those annoying Moderators this board DOES have an ignore feature that you can enable, if it makes it easier (but you're stuck with me... and that crabby ol' geezer with the cane!)

 

[Mathman]

...because we want to be right 110% of the time. Even when we KNOW we're wrong, we're still right.

such is human nature.

We should sticky this post.

Of course, some of us are Reiter than others.

 

[Tonichelle]

*ahem*, it's "Reitter" you missed a "T"

still waiting for a guy with the last name of "right/write/wright/etc" so I can be the "Reitter-Right"

 

[Medusa]

*ahem*, it's "Reitter" you missed a "T"

still waiting for a guy with the last name of "right/write/wright/etc" so I can be the "Reitter-Right"

So I take it you love horses very much?

 

[Tonichelle]

I did when I was younger... and my dad grew up with them...

are you asking because of the Reitter family crest? (I think it has a horse on it, haven't looked at it in a while lol)

 

[Mrs. P]

I had a thought for everyone's consideration.
Does anyone think that McBru might have suffered because Nicks spent so much time with Sasha? I say this knowing that there's no way to determine or this or some people might take it as avenue to attack Sasha.

But let's face it Sasha has only been able to build back her jumps (and probably do run throughs) for the last few months because of her injury, so perhaps that's been more of NIcks' focus as of late. I mean McBru looked pretty good, if not great, during the GP. I mean as far as everyone was concerned they were a lock for the Olympic Team.

And another thing to consider is that Sasha and Nicks have a much more stronger connection. No matter Sasha's coaching changes, she always ended up going back to Nicks, just like she did this time. McBru just switched over to him -- it couldn't have been easy to foster that new of a relationship when he's trying to get Sasha back into competitive form.

But then again, McBru has had great practices all week. So maybe it was just plain old nerves or pressure. As I said, it's just a thought.

 

[Tonichelle]

I had a thought for everyone's consideration.
Does anyone think that McBru might have suffered because Nicks spent so much time with Sasha?

I wondered when the coach blaming would begin.

No I don't think so, they were having these same problems last season, too... just not all at once like here in Spokane.

 

[Mrs. P]

I wondered when the coach blaming would begin.

No I don't think so, they were having these same problems last season, too... just not all at once like here in Spokane.

I certainly am aware that they had these problems before this competition. World's basically was not great and they showed a lot of mistakes during the GP.

I bought this up this thought not to blame Nicks; I wonder more about the challenges of balancing such a new relationship with one that I imagine is more demanding.

 

[Tonichelle]

Nicks is an extremely professional coach who has umpteen bazillion hours of experience... it's not like a top pairs team and a top ladies skater is going to tax him out.

 

[Mrs. P]

Nicks is an extremely professional coach who has umpteen bazillion hours of experience... it's not like a top pairs team and a top ladies skater is going to tax him out.

That's true. As I said, I just put the question out there for discussion. Nicks is a solid coach and this question wasn't designed to debate that.

But I think that the nuances of a coach/skater relationship is important to consider no matter how experienced or professional the coach is. Let's look at Yuka Sato/Jeremy Dungen. They had NO experience coaching before Jeremy came along. But so far it seems that relationship has worked great. I get the sense that they have this vibe that just seems to really boost Jeremy. His former coach back in Colorado Springs is very good, very professional -- but clearly not working for Jeremy.

Likewise, Nicks might be an amazing coach in all ways, but maybe there's some nuance out there that has kept Nicks from fully giving what McBru needs.

I also want to add that by asking this question, I'm not completely removing the blame on the skaters. There is only so much a coach can do and clearly they have a lot of work to do. And they're young. I forget sometimes that Keanua is 17!

 

[Medusa]

are you asking because of the Reitter family crest? (I think it has a horse on it, haven't looked at it in a while lol)

No, because "Reiter" (in older German also often spelled "Reitter") means rider, as in horse-rider. Your ancestors were probably knights, since "Reiter" is also Middle High German (Ancient German from ca. 1050 till 1300 A.D.) for "Ritter", which is current day German for "knight".

 

[gold12345]

I'll chime in here. I think Nationals (in every country) should send to the Olympics whomever places in the top spots -- period. Otherwise, what's the point of Nationals?

The point of Nationals is to pick a National Champion and National medalists, isn't it? I don't think it needs to be the only criteria in picking the Olympic team.

For one, it's the Olympic Trials, so there's lots of pressure. To me, the ones who can withstand that kind of pressure and skate great are the ones who have a real shot at handling even greater pressure at the Olympics.

I don't know about this... For teams like E/L, C/O, etc, they really had nothing to lose at these Nationals. If they skated amazingly and made the Olympic team, great, but not many people were expecting it to happen for these teams. This is a much different type of pressure than what the top 2 or 3 U.S. pairs were facing, for sure. So did Nationals really prove that E/L can handle pressure better than, say, M/B or I/B, or is just that they had less pressure on them to begin with? Who knows. I just don't think making Nationals the only selection criteria in picking the Olympic team necessarily tells us which teams handle pressure the best and which teams can do the best at the Olympics.

I can't imagine how a little GP event with NO real fire could ever, under any circumstances, be considered the equal of Natls. And results from a year ago are old and prove only that a year ago a skater did OK.

What matters most is who can take the fire of Natls right now, a few weeks before facing the fire of the Olympics.

I think the point at looking at things like Grand Prix events is to get an idea how skaters are scoring internationally. The Olympics are obviously an international event, so it makes sense to want to get an idea how a country's skaters tend to stack up on the world level.

I presume you think E/L will be on the podium at the Olys? or are you happy they got a free trip to Vancouver as a reward for their stunning performance at Nats? They did beat veterans I/B by less than 1/2 pt. so they must be the stronger team.

We should come back to this at the Olys and see how E/L do. I am not against them. Just skeptical.

I understand what you mean. E/L have not done well internationally. They are well received in the U.S. and are often crowd favorites at Nationals, but that doesn't matter so much when you are going to an International event like the Olympics. You could argue that I/B can't potentially finish that much higher than E/L, so who cares if we sent 2nd or 3rd place... But I personally would always try to finish as high as I could at the Olympics, and send the teams with the best, most realistic chances at scoring well there.

What has been so frustrating to me throughout this whole season-long discussion is this, Joe. We have been clued in, over and over, by people who actually have contacts within the inner councils of the USFSA (Phil Hersh, Gsrossano, Sylvia), just how the Olympic selection committee works. This is what the committee does...+++

What the committee does not do -- never has -- is consider results from past Grand Prix Finals, Worlds, last year's Nationals, etc. The document that says that they do consider such things is a patent fabrication, made necessary by some nit-picky rules of the USOC, but not to be taken seriously as a description of what actually happens.

So we know all these things, and have known them all season.

And yet we are still getting posts about, hey, what about the committee? What about M&B having a better international record than E&L? What about I&B being past Olympians? What about Caroline Zhang doing well at Four Continents last year? What about Sasha having a better chance to medal in Vancouver than Ashley?

So that just makes me :scratch:

I'm guessing a lot of people understand that realistically, USFS is just going to go by National results in picking the Oly team... But there's no reason why we can't have a discussion as to why that may not always be a great idea.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

deleted. see next page.

 

[janetfan]

Some people do not want to acknowledge that there is a procedure for selecting the Olympic Team. They demand an Olympic Trial in the form of the last Nationals before the current Olys.

Where these people get confused, I believe, is that the best skater(s) are well known before the last Nationals before th

The procedure for picking the Olympic team has been established for decades.

Show you are the best at Natls and voila - you make the Olympic team.
Why would US Skating want to pick the lower finishers above the medalists?

Tell me more about the history of this "committee" and how over decades they have decided who makes the Olympic team?

There is only one answer. You might not agree but please don't try and tell us a bunch of people sit in a room and analyze skaters past performances coz it just ain't so. Never was and I hope it never will be done like that.

 

[Joesitz (RIP)]

Some people do not want to acknowledge that there is a procedure for selecting the Olympic Team. They demand an Olympic Trial in the form of the last Nationals before the current Olys.

Where these people get confused, I believe, is that the best skater(s) are well known before the last Nationals before the Olys. Those same skaters place 1,2,3,at the Nats, and it appears that the Team was decided by the Nats and not by the special committee. But not so. The decisions coincided.as they often do.

This year the best Pair Team for the last 3 years faltered at 1 and only 1 competition and finished too far down to be given an ok by the special committee which then decided to ok the 2nd place team at the Nats While I did not think it was the best decision, I was not a part of the deliberations.

The procedure for picking the Olympic team has been established for decades.
.

Janet - Please show me the official version of the established procedure which you are talking about?

As I have said before the results of the Nats more often than not, coincide with the special committee's selection.

PS: I respect Mathman & Joesitz opinions, they are part of the reason I come to this board, they are much older & wiser than me. I may not always agree with them, but I do respect them, which is far more than I can say for some others, huge understatement. But alas this is the way it is in the real world, only difference is that in the real world I have the option to ignore, never to see that person(s) again. Not so here, lol.

Thank you Nadine. I am the black sheep of the Board, but without black sheep, we would all be in agreement that so and so should change the color of her dress.

 

[janetfan]

Janet - Please show me the official version of the established procedure which you are talking about?

As I have said before the results of the Nats more often than not, coincide with the special committee's selection.

Is it a coincidence that for so many decades the medalists at Natls are chosen for the Olympic team?

If you can't accept as mathman pointed out the "reality" of how it is done - or comments from gsrossano and Sylvia - then I see little chance of changing your mind.

It is what it is and I can think of very , very few times when the medalists were not selected.

Michelle in '06 comes to mind - and she followed a rule by petitioning for injury reasons. That is a rule and if Evan had been hurt this weekend he could have done the same thing.

Harding was kicked off after winning Natls in '94 - she went to court and the courts told the committee to take a hike.

So much for your committee. Athletes have rights and gsrossano explained it all very well recently.

Since then the "rules" have been changed but as many have continuosly pointed out it was more about keeping US Skating in control of the event.

Whatever - no disrespect meant - I just don't agree with what you are saying.

 

[FlattFan]

No, that was just propoganda. First and second go.
It doesn't matter how well they do. They won their spot fair and square.

Except they don't.
I just looked at their score sheet and one of their element has a +2 GOE.
The rest have + GOE almost across the board.

I/J have -GOE almost across the board.

In international competition, both teams have -GOE. This is why what I/J scored is more in line with the international judging and what the 2nd team scored is questionable.

When the result is so close, I think the committee needs to justify sending one team over another. Why have a committee if 1st and 2nd always get to go?

What has been so frustrating to me throughout this whole season-long discussion is this, Joe. We have been clued in, over and over, by people who actually have contacts within the inner councils of the USFSA (Phil Hersh, Gsrossano, Sylvia), just how the Olympic selection committee works. This is what the committee does.

(a) It validates the results of nationals.

(b) It considers petitions from skaters requesting byes because of injuries (Kwan in 2006, Kerrigan in 1994, Eldredge in 1992)

What the committee does not do -- never has -- is consider results from past Grand Prix Finals, Worlds, last year's Nationals, etc. The document that says that they do consider such things is a patent fabrication, made necessary by some nit-picky rules of the USOC, but not to be taken seriously as a description of what actually happens.

So we know all these things, and have known them all season.

And yet we are still getting posts about, hey, what about the committee? What about M&B having a better international record than E&L? What about I&B being past Olympians? What about Caroline Zhang doing well at Four Continents last year? What about Sasha having a better chance to medal in Vancouver than Ashley?

So that just makes me :scratch:

Yesterday Sandra mentioned that the committee might be picking between Ryan Bradley and Johnny Weir but she said something about being old school and for her, the top 3 go.
I would imagine Sandra has some formal contact with some members. Otherwise, where on earth would she get that idea that Weir might not be selected because his LP was not good even after he placed 3rd.

So, do I believe Sandra or do I believe Philip Hersh, Gsrossano, Sylvia?

Just to say it's not so dry and clear.

 

[formersk8ter]

I presume you think E/L will be on the podium at the Olys? or are you happy they got a free trip to Vancouver as a reward for their stunning performance at Nats? They did beat veterans I/B by less than 1/2 pt. so they must be the stronger team.

We should come back to this at the Olys and see how E/L do. I am not against them. Just skeptical.

Ummmmm... why would you presume that I think E/L will be on the podium at Olympics? No, I don't think any of the US pairs teams have a remote shot at that, with S/Z, S/S, Z/Z, P/T, D/D, K/S and others in the mix. That was never my point... My point was that E/L rose to the occasion (at least better than some others) when it counted, and I believe that deserves a trip to the Olys.

 

[Tonichelle]

No, because "Reiter" (in older German also often spelled "Reitter") means rider, as in horse-rider. Your ancestors were probably knights, since "Reiter" is also Middle High German (Ancient German from ca. 1050 till 1300 A.D.) for "Ritter", which is current day German for "knight".

very cool! :agree: