Shoma Uno raises bar for 2016-17 | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Shoma Uno raises bar for 2016-17

That plan was because of everyone seeing the video of Jin doing a perfect SP with 4Lutz+3Toe and 4Toe in competition. It doesn't matter that Jin hadn't yet competed on the Grand Prix, everyone already knew what he had done and what he was going to do.

Top athletes push the tech when there are new challengers that can seriously threaten them. Jin's clean SP with 2 quads only scored 90 in his first senior competition COC, which is much lower (10+ points) than Hanyu's clean SP with only 1 quad. It also scored much lower than Fernandez, Ten and Chan's clean 1-quad SP. So Jin is not a threat to any of the top skaters. None of Fernandez, Ten, Chan and Hanyu pushed the tech because of Jin. Nobody followed Jin because he did a two-quad SP. (It's the same reason nobody followed Goebel because Goebel was not a threat to either Yagudin nor Plushenko. Even with 3 quad and 2 axel, Goebel scored lower than both Yagudin and Plushenko who did only 2 quads. Similarly, nobody followed Kovtun and Reynold to do 2-quad SP because they are not threat to anybody.)

After Hanyu skated two consecutive competitions clean, all of Fernandez, Chan and Ten immediately upped their tech because Hanyu became a much bigger threat. (If Hanyu only skated clean once, other skaters might think it's just a fluke. In fact, nobody upped their tech after NHK. But skating clean twice makes him a much bigger threat. That's when (after GPF) the other top skaters all upped their tech.) Top skaters don't take risk casually just because there is someone out there trying risky elements. (There are many skaters who try risky elements.) They are actually waiting to see if there is someone who can succeed in risky layout and do it consistently and outscore them before they try more risky layout themselves because taking more risk will make them more inconsistent, increase the risk of injuries and lower their chance of winning.
 
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Top athletes push the tech when there are new challengers that can seriously threaten them. Jin's clean SP with 2 quads only scored 90 in his first senior competition COC, which is much lower (10+ points) than Hanyu's clean SP with only 1 quad. It also scored much lower than Fernandez, Ten and Chan's clean 1-quad SP. So Jin is not a threat to any of the top skaters. None of Fernandez, Ten, Chan and Hanyu pushed the tech because of Jin. Nobody followed Jin because he did a two-quad SP.

People saw what Jin was doing and were immediately thinking ahead to the Olympics and the level someone like Jin might be at then, just like what Hanyu accomplished in the last Olympics. Jin's successful SP jump layout potentially gave him an 8 point advantage over the 1-Quad SP's everyone had been doing. Everyone was amazed by it and recognized that 2 Quad's in the SP would be necessary to beat a competitor like this if they became competitive on PCS. Hanyu certainly does not want to be left in the dust, in any aspect of his skating.

It's the same reason nobody followed Goebel because Goebel was not a threat to either Yagudin nor Plushenko. Even with 3 quad and 2 axel, Goebel scored lower than both Yagudin and Plushenko who did only 2 quads.

The thing is, Goebel just had the advantage of 1 Quad Sal over a whole competition in comparison to their jump layouts and he also wasn't doing the Quad+Triple+Double combo. This is different than how Boyang suddenly started throwing a phenomenal Quad Lutz, with 6 Quads in total over a whole competition. Goebel also never skated a perfect LP and didn't keep doing 3 Quads. If he had skated perfectly with 3 Quads at 2003 Worlds (and added the +3Sal combo to his 3Axel to have two different difficult combinations), he may have beaten Plushenko.

In any case, his success was definitely pushing people to at least think about upping their own content. Takeshi Honda got serious about 3 Quads in 2003. Plushenko attempted the Quad Lutz and Michael Weiss tried to bring his back. The Chinese guys were going for multiple Quad types of course and Chengjiang Li had his best placement ever at Worlds in 2003. Miki Ando was going for Quad Sal over in the women's event. It was definitely in the water, but it never really materialized.
 
People saw what Jin was doing and were immediately thinking ahead to the Olympics and the level someone like Jin might be at then, just like what Hanyu accomplished in the last Olympics. Jin's successful SP jump layout potentially gave him an 8 point advantage over the 1-Quad SP's everyone had been doing. Everyone was amazed by it and recognized that 2 Quad's in the SP would be necessary to beat a competitor like this if they became competitive on PCS. Hanyu certainly does not want to be left in the dust, in any aspect of his skating.



The thing is, Goebel just had the advantage of 1 Quad Sal over a whole competition in comparison to their jump layouts and he also wasn't doing the Quad+Triple+Double combo. This is different than how Boyang suddenly started throwing a phenomenal Quad Lutz, with 6 Quads in total over a whole competition. Goebel also never skated a perfect LP and didn't keep doing 3 Quads. If he had skated perfectly with 3 Quads at 2003 Worlds (and added the +3Sal combo to his 3Axel to have two different difficult combinations), he may have beaten Plushenko.

In any case, his success was definitely pushing people to at least think about upping their own content. Takeshi Honda got serious about 3 Quads in 2003. Plushenko attempted the Quad Lutz and Michael Weiss tried to bring his back. The Chinese guys were going for multiple Quad types of course and Chengjiang Li had his best placement ever at Worlds in 2003. Miki Ando was going for Quad Sal over in the women's event. It was definitely in the water, but it never really materialized.

All of the examples you gave are potential threats, but not real threats because none of the skaters you mentioned broke the WR or beat the leaders of their time. Top skaters all think in a similar way. It took them a long time to build their reputation. They don't casually take more risk unless they have to, because taking more risk will lead to more inconsistency, loss of reputation and more injuries. They do pay attention skaters who try harder elements and they train new jumps in practice in case they need to add new jumps to their program in the future. But they only include new jumps and take more risk when the potential threats become real threats.

Yagudin only jumped more quads because Plushenko threatened him and started beating him. Yagudin didn't jump more quads because of Goebel because judges never let Goebel score near him no matter how many quads Goebel jumped. Plushenko only jumped more quads because Yagudin was beating him. After Yagudin retired, Plushenko didn't up his tech and lowered his tech instead because he didn't have any close rival after Yagudin retired.

Jin is lacking skills in many aspects, so he is not a threat to any of the top skaters. None of the top skaters will up their tech because of Jin. Hanyu pays attention to Jin because Jin may become a real threat in the future. He practices new quads in case he needs them in the future. But he doesn't need new quads to beat Jin. Judges never let Jin score anywhere near Hanyu no matter how many quads Jin did. Hanyu ups his tech because he is never a clear favorite of the judges despite him breaking the WR. Judges always give his close rivals (other top skaters) similar GOE and PCS (even when they don't deserve it) and judges let other top skaters beat him whenever he makes any mistakes. Hanyu must increase the BV to have any advantage over other top skaters, but he doesn't need higher BV to beat Jin.

Chan didn't up his tech in the last quad because judges never let any skaters score anywhere near him no matter how well or how poorly he performed for over 3 years. That's what made him think he didn't need to up his tech. But he did practice new quads in case he needs them.
 
Jin is lacking skills in many aspects, so he is not a threat to any of the top skaters. None of the top skaters will up their tech because of Jin. Hanyu pays attention to Jin because Jin may become a real threat in the future. He practices new quads in case he needs them in the future. But he doesn't need new quads to beat Jin.

Boston proved otherwise I think, didn't I see him on the podium next to Hanyu & Fernandes with Chan nowhere near?
Considering Jin's quads were not even clean there (unlike at 4CC where btw only the smallest of margin allowed Chan to win) I would respectfully disagree with your statement.
 
People are capable of planning ahead and need to at times. "Potential threats" are something people can concern themselves with, staying ahead of the curve. Hanyu watched the video of Jin and then went to his coach and said "I want to do more Quads like this". That is just what happened. It's a thought many skaters had after seeing Jin's jumps. A sudden realization of exactly what they may be up against in the future, where the standard is headed.

Competitors casually "practicing things in case they need them in the future" doesn't fully prepare them for the future. You can't just practice a Quad in isolation and then hope to automatically do it in a program "when you need it". You have to train it as your planned program, try it in competition, build mileage on it. If you're worried about someone in the future being able to beat your 2-Quad program with a 4-Quad program, then logically you should start competing a 3-Quad program. That way you have increased your level and are on a stepping stone towards possibly being able to do your own 4-Quad program in the future, should the need arise. You can't just magically hope to start doing a 4-Quad program when you find that your competitor is catching up to you in other areas. Hanyu is an aware individual, he realizes this. Plus he likes this kind of challenge anyway.

You talk about how Chan practiced other quads "in case he needed them"...well guess what, he did need them this past season. But he didn't have them because he never seriously trained them and never competed them in the past. The only thing he could realistically do was add another Triple Axel and that upgrade is in fact the only reason Patrick Chan beat Boyang Jin at 4CC (barely) this past season. So much for Boyang not threatening anyone. A guy that gets on the World podium his very first year is totally not a threat. Yeah.

After Yagudin retired, Plushenko didn't up his tech and lowered his tech instead because he didn't have any close rival after Yagudin retired.

Not true. He tried Quad Lutz and did the Quad+Triple+Triple after Yagudin retired. He kept going for 2 Quads and the 3Axel+3Flip combo at big events as well, 2003 and 2004 Worlds.

Now obviously people aren't going to do something that would risk losing an important competition. Jumps are also not the only thing people can do to get points either. It's necessary to understand when you shouldn't be "resting on your laurels", though.
 
I disagree. Hanyu started planning for the two quad SP before Skate Canada even ended. He added it because Patrick beat him. I doubt he saw any video of Jin then (if any video of him was even out there at that time). Three quads in the FS was always planned. I believe he also said a year or two ago that he believed while more quads or more different types of quads will likely be needed for 2018, quality in execution and the components is the most important. Even last season he pretty much said who really cares about two quads in SP or more people getting over 100, as he was able to do it first with only one quad coupled with high quality skating and GOE. Hell, Jin at his best got 98 with two quads when Hanyu could still pull 95 with one and a mistake. These statements alone show that he's really mostly concerned with "complete skaters" who can do multiple quads (Chan, Fernandez, maybe even Ten). Not Jin. As far as I'm concerned Jin wasn't even in his mind until NHK...
 
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Boston proved otherwise I think, didn't I see him on the podium next to Hanyu & Fernandes with Chan nowhere near?
Considering Jin's quads were not even clean there (unlike at 4CC where btw only the smallest of margin allowed Chan to win) I would respectfully disagree with your statement.

None of Fernandez, Ten or Chan upped their tech because of Jin. They all saw Jin doing multiple quads at COC and NHK. None of them changed their layout after COC. They only upped their tech after GPF when Hanyu skated two competitions clean. They know their best is better than Jin's best, but not better than Hanyu's best. If they saw Jin's as a threat, they would've upped their tech right after coc right away, not waited till after GPF, where Jin gave a sub-par performance. Of course mistakes happen, especially when skaters add more risky elements to their programs. So they can under-perform and miss the podium. Jin medaled at WC because Ten and Chan bombed at WC.

People are capable of planning ahead and need to at times. "Potential threats" are something people can concern themselves with, staying ahead of the curve. Hanyu watched the video of Jin and then went to his coach and said "I want to do more Quads like this". That is just what happened. It's a thought many skaters had after seeing Jin's jumps. A sudden realization of exactly what they may be up against in the future, where the standard is headed.

Competitors casually "practicing things in case they need them in the future" doesn't fully prepare them for the future. You can't just practice a Quad in isolation and then hope to automatically do it in a program "when you need it". You have to train it as your planned program, try it in competition, build mileage on it. If you're worried about someone in the future being able to beat your 2-Quad program with a 4-Quad program, then logically you should start competing a 3-Quad program. That way you have increased your level and are on a stepping stone towards possibly being able to do your own 4-Quad program in the future, should the need arise. You can't just magically hope to start doing a 4-Quad program when you find that your competitor is catching up to you in other areas. Hanyu is an aware individual, he realizes this. Plus he likes this kind of challenge anyway.

You talk about how Chan practiced other quads "in case he needed them"...well guess what, he did need them this past season. But he didn't have them because he never seriously trained them and never competed them in the past. The only thing he could realistically do was add another Triple Axel and that upgrade is in fact the only reason Patrick Chan beat Boyang Jin at 4CC (barely) this past season. So much for Boyang not threatening anyone. A guy that gets on the World podium his very first year is totally not a threat. Yeah.

Hanyu planned 3 quads in the 2014-2015 season before Jin turned senior. (He didn't end up executing 3 quad LP last season due to a number of reasons.) Fernandez has been doing 3 quad LP for a few seasons. Hanyu planned 2 quad SP after zayaking and losing to Chan at SC this season. What prompted Hanyu to up his tech is related to how he competes against Fernandez and Chan because Fernandez and Chan are much closer rivals than Jin is. Jin is a very distant potential rival. It's illogical and irrational for an athlete to totally ignore his close rivals and only worry about his distant potential rivals.

Chan just made a come back this season. It's much harder for him to add a new jump after taking a one year break. If this season is the post-olympic season and he didn't take a break, he would've added the 4S.
 
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It does not matter who starts first as long as everyone pushing the sports forward.

Interesting thoughts from Yuzu on quads in SP. Partial translation of interview after NHK 2015 SP.

Question: Hanyu-senshu, the number of skaters who did 2 quads increased at this competition. Do you think this sport is heading towards that direction and do you think anything will be sacrificed for it?
Yuzu: Just speaking about having 2 quads in the SP, there are skaters who are able to and there are skaters who are unable to. Skaters are all unique so if asked if it'll be absolutely necessary, I don't think so. With the current rules, having 2 quads is as far as one can go. Someone with a 4A might come along but with the current rules, having 2 quads is the max you can do, plus you have to do the steps, spins, transitions, expressions, etc. But, like Mura-senshu, you could do 1 quad, 3-3 or 4-3, 3A and will he never be able to win with that? I don't think it's impossible. In reality, I had 1 quad with an axel and lutz in the 2nd half, I received +GOEs with expressions, spins, steps and scored over 100 with that layout. So if I think about that, I don't think having 2 quads is absolutely necessary.
I don't think there is anything to lose by having 2 quads. It'll depend on each and every skater's uniqueness. You could do a program with 2 quads, do triples and have expressions like a skater without a quad, execute beautiful jumps, steps and spins with +GOEs, and nobody will be able to beat you so there is nowhere else to aim for besides that for us. So there is nothing to lose.

Question: Why did you think that you should go through with your layout ambition?
Yuzu: I'd have to include 2 quads in the SP one of these day to win. I have to include 2 quads with +GOE worthy entries, landings, steps spins, expressions and skating until the end, fully focused. That is what I must be able to do by PyeongChang Olympics and as an OGM, I have to be predominantly strong to win consecutively. This (current situation) is far from my goal yet. I want to work hard and challenge myself more.
 
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Jin is a very distant potential rival. It's illogical and irrational for an athlete to totally ignore his close rivals and only worry about his distant potential rivals.

This mentality is what causes people to lose and it's also a fallacy - you're not "ignoring" your close rivals by improving your level beyond what is necessary to beat them. You're inherently setting yourself ahead of them. Hanyu was already beating his "close rivals" if he skated his best, but he realized more quads were likely needed to stay ahead of the curve for the next Olympics; that people can overtake him if he stays complacent. Jin last season was the biggest manifestation of someone who could become a favorite at the next Olympics, with a level of jumping that would be unbeatable if he improved the rest of his skating by then.

Again, the fact is that people saw what Jin was doing early last season and it caused a spike in training even more quads. Everyone was talking about it and taking it seriously; ask coaches and skaters yourself. Hanyu certainly made 2 Quads in the SP and 3 Quads in the LP become an immediate necessity for top competitors, but it would be foolish to think he didn't get motivation from knowing Boyang was doing even more difficult jump content than that. When people see others doing something that has never been accomplished before, it suddenly becomes tangible and incites people to feel "Wow, okay, it can be done. If they can do it, then maybe I can too."

This isn't just how it works in skating either, but all areas of life. When something is accomplished that was previously considered "impossible" or "too difficult to be realistic", people rewire their brain and these feats suddenly seem less daunting. Hanyu has even talked about how he personally improved his skating by absorbing what others were doing. This is a dominant trait of Japanese culture in general, taking what is considered to be the best parts and using them to create the "ideal" product.
 
This mentality is what causes people to lose and it's also a fallacy - you're not "ignoring" your close rivals by improving your level beyond what is necessary to beat them. You're inherently setting yourself ahead of them. Hanyu was already beating his "close rivals" if he skated his best, but he realized more quads were likely needed to stay ahead of the curve for the next Olympics; that people can overtake him if he stays complacent. Jin last season was the biggest manifestation of someone who could become a favorite at the next Olympics, with a level of jumping that would be unbeatable if he improved the rest of his skating by then.

Again, the fact is that people saw what Jin was doing early last season and it caused a spike in training even more quads. Everyone was talking about it and taking it seriously; ask coaches and skaters yourself. Hanyu certainly made 2 Quads in the SP and 3 Quads in the LP become an immediate necessity for top competitors, but it would be foolish to think he didn't get motivation from knowing Boyang was doing even more difficult jump content than that. When people see others doing something that has never been accomplished before, it suddenly becomes tangible and incites people to feel "Wow, okay, it can be done. If they can do it, then maybe I can too."

This isn't just how it works in skating either, but all areas of life. When something is accomplished that was previously considered "impossible" or "too difficult to be realistic", people rewire their brain and these feats suddenly seem less daunting. Hanyu has even talked about how he personally improved his skating by absorbing what others were doing. This is a dominant trait of Japanese culture in general, taking what is considered to be the best parts and using them to create the "ideal" product.

This is all true. The issue is the continued perpetuation of this misconception that Boyang was directly and solely responsible for Yuzuru upping his content. He wasn't.
 
ermmm this is going in a funny direction. Jin deserves attention as he is the only one right now with a steady 4Lutz.

However, a handful of skaters have two quads. The reason why they were not including them in the SP, except for Kevin Reynolds, is simple : why risk it, especially in 2014....

Now, 2016 and 2017 are the best times to try harder layouts.... some skaters will get comfortable and choose what will bring them the most points for 2018... and they will stick to that plan then....

It's a bit like Alaine Chartrand and other ladies trying the 3A right now.... Well, you won't see that many in 2018 coming up with a brand new jump....

So it's a question of timing in the olympic preparation, as far as I am concerned... the sport always has often done that, the only difference is that now, instead of trying one quad, people are hoping for 2 and perhaps even 3...
 
Based on the past interviews by Hanyu, I think we can say the reason why he upgraded his layout of the program was not Jin, BUT it doesn't mean that he doesn't see Jin as a rival at all IMO. He said in the interview after SP at NHK, he was really fired up by Jin's perfect performance (yes, he was watching Boyang's quads). Hanyu also described Jin in a Kanji "猛” (=brave, strong, fierce, etc) because Jin really sticked to his own style now and he never changed his will about quads. He said that he liked Jin's performances with much momentum.

And since the main topic is Uno in this thread, Hanyu described Uno ”賢” (=smart, wise) in a Kanji because he was consistent. Hanyu thinks Uno is younger than him but Uno has been training more if he counts it in total time in their skating lives so far. He really respects for his hard work and establishing his style, which Hanyu thinks he can never do.
 
ermmm this is going in a funny direction. Jin deserves attention as he is the only one right now with a steady 4Lutz.

However, a handful of skaters have two quads…

I agree with this. Never mind doing two quads -- anybody can do that, whether in the short or long ;) What sets Jin apart is that he can do three different quads.Now Uno has a quad flip. Can Hanyu's quad loop be far behind?
 
I agree with this. Never mind doing two quads -- anybody can do that, whether in the short or long ;) What sets Jin apart is that he can do three different quads.Now Uno has a quad flip. Can Hanyu's quad loop be far behind?

We will see the 4Lo this season.
 
We will see the 4Lo this season.
i have mixed feelings about the quad loop... yuzu's 4Lo seem fine at galas but I am scared that's a jump that is a tragic move for the body... hip's death.... if a skater gets obsessed with them and train them all the time, ouch.... and actually I wonder if that's what happened to Kevin Reynolds.... he needed hip surgery the season after he tried to be the first man to land 3 different quads in his LP.... talk about someone who has had 2 quads in his SP for quite a while ;)
 
i have mixed feelings about the quad loop... yuzu's 4Lo seem fine at galas but I am scared that's a jump that is a tragic move for the body... hip's death.... if a skater gets obsessed with them and train them all the time, ouch.... and actually I wonder if that's what happened to Kevin Reynolds.... he needed hip surgery the season after he tried to be the first man to land 3 different quads in his LP.... talk about someone who has had 2 quads in his SP for quite a while ;)

I think so too. I think he just needs to focus on being healthy and consistent but he will do as he wishes. Lol
 
However, a handful of skaters have two quads. The reason why they were not including them in the SP, except for Kevin Reynolds, is simple : why risk it, especially in 2014....

The funny thing is it wasn't actually much of a "risk", as long as you rotated, which is something Fernandez hasn't had a problem with. Falling on a Quad Sal was worth 6.5 points (now worth 5.5 points, ISU is slowly going in the right direction on jump values). If you're not doing 2 Quads in the SP, then you're putting Lutz in, which wasn't worth much more than a Quad Sal fall even if executed great.

Fernandez had a lot to gain by doing 2 Quads in the SP. It was a misjudgement of his career to not start doing it in 2013. He made multiple mistakes in the SP at the Olympics anyway. With 2 Quads in the SP, the extra points would have put him on the podium. It could have even made him 2014 World Champion. Obviously things worked out for him the past couple seasons at Worlds, but that Olympic medal...
 
yes and no :)

i agree that the extra deduction is better now...

however, i think fernandez back then wasn't solid enough to attempt the 2 quads SP... his stability of the last two seasons is fantastic but in 2014, he was quite up and down.... i mean come on guys, when Yuzu skated twice back to back SPs and LPs at NHK and GPF, people on this forum were saying OMG ... finally he nails two programs and twice in a row... and yet at worlds and japanese nationals he couldn't ... (sure injuries may be a factor)... but the thing really here is that it was too risky for these men to do 2 quads in the SP in 2014... right now, there's very little risk as it's not olympic season... we will see what the layouts are in 2018... but for 2017, sure... we will see more attempts ;)

i mean why didn't Shoma try the 4F at WC? he certainly was training it ;) because he thought he could risk it at TCC because TCC means nothing ;)

The funny thing is it wasn't actually much of a "risk", as long as you rotated, which is something Fernandez hasn't had a problem with. Falling on a Quad Sal was worth 6.5 points (now worth 5.5 points, ISU is slowly going in the right direction on jump values). If you're not doing 2 Quads in the SP, then you're putting Lutz in, which wasn't worth much more than a Quad Sal fall even if executed great.

Fernandez had a lot to gain by doing 2 Quads in the SP. It was a misjudgement of his career to not start doing it in 2013. He made multiple mistakes in the SP at the Olympics anyway. With 2 Quads in the SP, the extra points would have put him on the podium. It could have even made him 2014 World Champion. Obviously things worked out for him the past couple seasons at Worlds, but that Olympic medal...
 
I think that although Jin´s PCS at 2016 WC was not high compared to his nearest competitors, it does not mean it will remain so forever. Jin is very young and I believe that in coming season he will have a better fs created to hide what ever he might be lacking in this moment. His sp choreography was rather good already in this season, IMO. And he will surely improve in PCS during the time as his reputation grows and he improves in PCS area. In my opinion it was very wise from other top skaters to add more technical content for Boston and for the coming season.
 
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