Should skaters compete through illness or injury?

[Layback11]

This is bound to be quite a debated topic, and I apologize in advance for any arguments that may occur (I will try my best to prevent them), but I'll ask it anyway: do you think skaters should compete when ill or injured? This has been an injury-plagued season, with three prominent Russians out for the season with injuries, a traumatic collision at Cup of China that nearly gave Yuzuru Hanyu a concussion (not to mention a later abdominal surgery), a stress fracture that forced Gracie Gold out of the GPF, and Elena Radionova nearly losing a world medal to the flu, to name a few. Many of these skaters competed through it, and it usually paid off. But, for their safety and health, what do you think skaters should do in situations where they are medically compromised?

 

[Watermelondrea]

It depends. Adrenaline pushes your body to unbelievable extemes. With today's medicine, I would say it's okay to skate through illness. Through injury, however you shouldn't because you could risk damage more. All in all - a skater should NOT be forced to skate if they aren't feeling well or injured. Hanyu wanted to compeye, its not like he was forced. Anna Pogorilaya was forced to skate at GPF and didn't do so well.

 

[Sandpiper]

I'm going to defer to Elvis Stojko on this one: In his TSL interview, he said, before Nagano, he asked his doctors, "If I push as hard as I can, will this injury damage my future career and health?" They said no. So he competed.

To transplant it to this season: Elena Radionova competing at Worlds--assuming I'm understanding her illness correctly--falls under "Well, if she wants to compete, let her." But the Yuzuru-Han Yan collision... they probably shouldn't have risked it.

 

[Amei]

I'm one that I take the approach that it's up to the skater. Some of the non-U.S. skaters support their family with their skating (and not with some obscene salary like pro-NFL/MLB/NBA players) that some suit, that is doing it solely for the purpose of protecting themselves and an unintentional added benefit potentially protecting the skater, telling them the skater they can't skate.

AntonioThunderhunter, this is the first I heard that Anna was 'forced' to skate any event, where'd you hear/read that?

 

[Near]

My feeling is that if there is no risk to an athlete's long term health then it should really be a matter of whether or not it's worth aggravating the injury / illness to the athlete. Being able to compete while not at 100% either physically or mentally is an important skill to have for both athletes and performers.

If it's something that puts the athlete's long term health or ability to compete at risk then IMO the athlete's coach should absolutely pressure them to pull out. I think it's also good strategy to take an extended injury breaks even if it means missing a competition if it helps be ready for a more important competition down the line and skaters shouldn't be discouraged to miss an event to be better prepare for a future event.

 

[StitchMonkey]

I'm going to defer to Elvis Stojko on this one: In his TSL interview, he said, before Nagano, he asked his doctors, "If I push as hard as I can, will this injury damage my future career and health?" They said no. So he competed.

To transplant it to this season: Elena Radionova competing at Worlds--assuming I'm understanding her illness correctly--falls under "Well, if she wants to compete, let her." But the Yuzuru-Han Yan collision... they probably shouldn't have risked it.

I was actually going to post his viewpoint as well as I think he did have a fair point. I took from it more that he was concerned with permanent damage primarily.

Radionova is a good example like you said.

Han Yan and Hanyu fall into a different category because "I don't know" is really the only answer they could have given.

I tend to feel that they should not have skated, but it should not have been their decision to make. If it was taken out of the skaters hands, then no skater feels pressured to skate. Ideally, someone else should have had the power and support and well spelled out rules to make the call for them not to skate.

 

[Sandpiper]

Han Yan and Hanyu fall into a different category because "I don't know" is really the only answer they could have given.

I tend to feel that they should not have skated, but it should not have been their decision to make. If it was taken out of the skaters hands, then no skater feels pressured to skate. Ideally, someone else should have had the power and support and well spelled out rules to make the call for them not to skate.

Well, yes, that's why I said "probably." If the medical staff could prove beyond doubt that there was nothing seriously wrong with them and skating a program with quads/triple axels won't do any damage, then let them skate. Just, considering the state they were in, considering how they skated their LPs and skated at their subsequent GPs, considering the reported damage afterwards... I find it hard to believe that the on-site medical staff really was certain.

 

[Krunchii]

I'm going to defer to Elvis Stojko on this one: In his TSL interview, he said, before Nagano, he asked his doctors, "If I push as hard as I can, will this injury damage my future career and health?" They said no. So he competed.

To transplant it to this season: Elena Radionova competing at Worlds--assuming I'm understanding her illness correctly--falls under "Well, if she wants to compete, let her." But the Yuzuru-Han Yan collision... they probably shouldn't have risked it.

I'm going to agree with this post, I still think Han Yan and Yuzuru shouldn't have risked it, I still remember Anna's fall from World's when she landed on her back and got up and continued while holding it in pain. Ice is slippery, one little thing can really escalate the entire situation. It disappointed me to see fangirls romanticize the situation on social media sites because potentially it could have gone in a much worse direction. It was their decision in the end to make but I don't have to agree with it.

 

[karne]

I think it is heavily dependent on several things.

First, the issue of illness.

This is difficult, because you don't know what illness they have and how it affects them. Max Aaron was ill at US Nationals this year - but you wouldn't have known it. Only the "death" of the Gladiator at the end might have given you a clue. I've skated with a full-blown cold before and barely been able to stay upright; I've skated with a stuff-nose before and been fine.

Joshua Farris was suffering the aftermath of an anaphylactic reaction at Greensboro in 2011. He should not have skated that day. Evgeni Plushenko was suffering pneumonia at the 2005 World Championships, skated the SP with a fever above 40C, and after that had to be hospitalised for three days.

So, there are different kinds of illnesses, and whether a skater can skate with it is highly dependent on that.

As to injury:

There are few - some, but few - injuries that it is okay to skate with. Alexei Yagudin broke his wrist before one of his competitions, and skated with a cast on his wrist. It didn't affect him one iota - and the risk was extremely minimal. I have heard of pairs skaters skating with broken noses (no longer bleeding), and that was okay because it didn't affect their skating and the risk of severe injury was again minimal.

Stress fractures, broken bones that will have an effect, torn tendons, strained ligaments, rolled ankles, torn muscles, concussion? Not okay. Ever. I have made my stance on the CoC disaster abundantly clear before but I will do so again: even if they had to be physically restrained, neither Han or Yuzuru should have been allowed to skate. Joshua Farris continued skating on his ankle after he broke it in Greensboro in 2011 (and he was already nursing a torn hip muscle) and now he will have ankle problems for the rest of his career.

And I don't think we need to even explain how many surgeries Plushenko has had, many as a consequence of skating when he shouldn't.

 

[Amei]

I'm going to defer to Elvis Stojko on this one: In his TSL interview, he said, before Nagano, he asked his doctors, "If I push as hard as I can, will this injury damage my future career and health?" They said no. So he competed.

One thing I would say as a negative to this *Disclaimer this is 100% hypothetical* say Hanyu's doctors said he was good to go after the CoC collision, then there is the argument that those doctors are paid by the JSF and could have the JSF's best interest in mind, not Hanyu's. And if there is a doctor provided by the host nation (I remember this was suggested after CoC) then there is the argument by both the skater and the skater's fed that the doctor is not trustworthy - A) they don't know the skater and skater's health and B) they could be 'worsening' an injury in an attempt to better the host nation's skaters placement

 

[karne]

One thing I would say as a negative to this *Disclaimer this is 100% hypothetical* say Hanyu's doctors said he was good to go after the CoC collision, then there is the argument that those doctors are paid by the JSF and could have the JSF's best interest in mind, not Hanyu's.

This is presently quite a large issue in Australian rugby league, where doctors on the payroll of the club are being asked to make an assessment as to whether a player has a concussion and/or is fit to return to the field.

The other issue with the CoC is that, IMO anyway, neither Hanyu or Yan were in any sort of condition to make an informed decision. Their brains were rattled up pretty badly. IMO, their ability to consent should have been considered the same of someone who was drunk.

 

[Interspectator]

One thing I would say as a negative to this *Disclaimer this is 100% hypothetical* say Hanyu's doctors said he was good to go after the CoC collision, then there is the argument that those doctors are paid by the JSF and could have the JSF's best interest in mind, not Hanyu's. And if there is a doctor provided by the host nation (I remember this was suggested after CoC) then there is the argument by both the skater and the skater's fed that the doctor is not trustworthy - A) they don't know the skater and skater's health and B) they could be 'worsening' an injury in an attempt to better the host nation's skaters placement

The doctor was from the American team.

 

[karne]

The doctor was from the American team.

Amei's situation was hypothetical, but to go with it - can you imagine the conspiracy theories if a Team USA doctor had told them both to withdraw? Especially given that this would have certainly elevated Dornbush in the standings at CoC, but would also have almost certainly given Brown at least, and possibly Dornbush and/or Aaron as well, a berth in the GPF?

 

[Meoima]

I can't tell about skaters since this is an individual sport thus all decisions are individual, but in football (soccer) I see many guys have played in terrible condition like this guy at WC: http://www.culturedallroundman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/bastian-schweinsteiger-getting-hit.jpg

Obviously they're made from tough stuff, but I guess it's just in their nature, if their coach don't think they must/should stay out, they compete through pains. So it's not rare among athletes. More like it's the norm.

 

[Amei]

The doctor was from the American team.

It doesn't really matter where the doctor comes from - my point was that the skater, coach or a Fed representative could raise huge issue with a doctor not from their own team/Fed could be making a determination based on something other than the skater's health.

*My example of 'doctor provided by the host nation' was based on a suggestion that was made whenever the CoC collision happened

 

[Krunchii]

I can't tell about skaters since this is an individual sport thus all decisions are individual, but in football (soccer) I see many guys have played in terrible condition like this guy at WC: http://www.culturedallroundman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/bastian-schweinsteiger-getting-hit.jpg

Obviously they're made from tough stuff, but I guess it's just in their nature, if their coach don't think they must/should stay out, they compete through pains. So it's not rare among athletes.

That's Bastian Schweinsteiger and he had some cuts to the face and took some challenges but it wasn't anything like Yuzuru and Han Yan's situation, I watched the game live and cheered for Germany. The game was already in full time and ended about 10 minutes later when they won, also I'm pretty sure he exaggerated a bit to try to get the penalty because this was before they scored the winning goal. Also when they fall they fall on turf, not on ice, in soccer it is natural to run into people and to collide once in a while, plus they're much bigger guys. It's not comparable, Yuzuru and Han Yan still had the LP to go, they weren't even half way done the competition in terms of work to do.

Also in the same game, fresh faced Kramer took a bad hit to the head and was subbed off and realizing that he wasn't fit to play, he doesn't even remember winning the World Cup anymore, they took responsibility and subbed him off for his own good.

 

[gravy]

I'm going to defer to Elvis Stojko on this one: In his TSL interview, he said, before Nagano, he asked his doctors, "If I push as hard as I can, will this injury damage my future career and health?" They said no. So he competed.

To transplant it to this season: Elena Radionova competing at Worlds--assuming I'm understanding her illness correctly--falls under "Well, if she wants to compete, let her." But the Yuzuru-Han Yan collision... they probably shouldn't have risked it.

I agree with the Stojko assessment.

When it comes to anything to do with the head like Hanyu/Yan though, it should be mandatory to sit it out. Skating with fevers is also a massive no-no. An already elevated body temperature can rise higher when physically stressed (exercise) leading to hyperthermia. And last, skating with broken bones is just wrong. There is always the possibility of the bone marrow releasing fat embolisms into the bloodstream which can be horribly dangerous.

 

[4everchan]

concussions are really dangerous and their aftermath is not instant… the extent of the injury can sometimes only be seen days later… since CoC neither Hanyu nor Han have skated to their full potential… I was watching the event live…. I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw both of them on the ice… for what sake??? I could almost understand if it had been Olympic Games…. as it's often a one in a lifetime opportunity but a grand prix event? I was appalled to say the least that they were, at such young age, and with such brilliant careers ahead, instructed to keep going, with such an injury.

For other kinds of injuries, there are other medical factors to consider… Rafael Nadal played tennis with appendicitis … he was followed by specialists and gave it a decent try… in all safety… so like Stojko, there was significant and professional advice given, and it didn't risk the athlete's life, health or career…

However, some injuries, like concussions, can not be assessed in 5 minutes by the ice rink.

 

[iluvtodd]

I agree with the Stojko assessment.

When it comes to anything to do with the head like Hanyu/Yan though, it should be mandatory to sit it out. Skating with fevers is also a massive no-no. An already elevated body temperature can rise higher when physically stressed (exercise) leading to hyperthermia. And last, skating with broken bones is just wrong. There is always the possibility of the bone marrow releasing fat embolisms into the bloodstream which can be horribly dangerous.

I agree with both statements here.

 

[hydroblader]

Concussion assessment cannot be rushed, however you need full cooperation the athlete. Current protocols for concussion management could keep a concussed individual off the ice for weeks if not longer. If a skater says I have a bad headache, or feel dizzy or has any focus problems, they should be taken off the ice immediately and shouldn't return until they have finished the graduated protocol for return to competition . This could take weeks depending on the severity. I know most athletes balk at these restrictions. One problem is that many of the symptoms of concussion are self-reported. In mild to moderate injuries only headache, dizziness or poor focus may result. If the athlete refuses to report these symptoms for fear of being pulled, there is no objective way to assess them at rinkside. So a competitor could return to the ice with undeclared symptoms at their peril. The LOC, or the federation normally provides emergency medical care primarily. If an athlete needs any additional care they are transported to the nearest hospital. Teams may have there own medical care providers. But to my knowledge, the local medical providers have no say in pulling an athlete against their wishes. They can make recommendations but at rinkside it is up to the athlete and his coach/support staff to decide if they proceed.