Skate fit advice for male skater

[nanojjw]

Hi knowledgeable folks!

I'm looking at buying a pair of second hand, almost new, Jackson Debut 2452 boots but I'm having a tough time figuring out how old they are. (The seller doesn't know).

This pair of boots have a leather sole and suede upper. I know the Debut boots all have the fusion sole now. Does anyone know when Jackson Debuts switched from a leather sole to fusion sole? This will help me but a minimum age on this boot.

Also, will I encounter any issues with boot given its age? Have they degraded in storage over time? Should I ignore the good deal and look elsewhere?

Thanks y'all.

 

[Diana Delafield]

Hi knowledgeable folks!

I'm looking at buying a pair of second hand, almost new, Jackson Debut 2452 boots but I'm having a tough time figuring out how old they are. (The seller doesn't know).

This pair of boots have a leather sole and suede upper. I know the Debut boots all have the fusion sole now. Does anyone know when Jackson Debuts switched from a leather sole to fusion sole? This will help me but a minimum age on this boot.

Also, will I encounter any issues with boot given its age? Have they degraded in storage over time? Should I ignore the good deal and look elsewhere?

Thanks y'all.

Welcome !
I don't know about dating the boot by its sole. We have technical people here who would know that. But in general, buying used boots is never a good idea. These ones will have degraded in storage. The main objection even for boots newer than these but used, is that they will have probably been molded for the original owner (if not heat molded by a technician, at least the first owner will have shaped them to her feet just by skating in them) and the shape may not fit your feet when you actually skate in them even if they felt comfortable when you tried them on.

I notice the Debut boots only have a stiffness rating of 45. If you're an adult skater, they will probably not be stiff enough for you, especially given their age and some previous use. What is your technical level? Knowing your age, height and weight would help us estimate if you need a more supportive boot for your safety on the ice. And knowing your foot shape, including your arch height will tell us if Jackson is the right brand for you.

If you decide to take the plunge into new boots, where do you live, so we can direct you to the best skate shop and fitter near you? Good luck!

 

[tstop4me]

Hi knowledgeable folks!

I'm looking at buying a pair of second hand, almost new, Jackson Debut 2452 boots but I'm having a tough time figuring out how old they are. (The seller doesn't know).

This pair of boots have a leather sole and suede upper. I know the Debut boots all have the fusion sole now. Does anyone know when Jackson Debuts switched from a leather sole to fusion sole? This will help me but a minimum age on this boot.

Also, will I encounter any issues with boot given its age? Have they degraded in storage over time? Should I ignore the good deal and look elsewhere?

Thanks y'all.

* Did the boots actually have "2452" stamped on them? I'm not completely certain, but I think the original Debut had a different 4-digit numerical code. Just to clarify, you're talking about men's black boots, correct? [There is a different numerical code for women's white boots, but that's not what I'm talking about.]

* The "suede upper" is not a suede leather upper, if that's what you were hoping for. It's fabricated from a synthetic microfiber material.

* I'm a member of another skating forum as well. There we had an extensive thread on the Debut when it was first introduced; that thread also followed the boot's evolution. So from the posts there, I can tell you that the original Debut with leather soles was on the market for only a brief time. It was introduced in July 2017. The new model with the Fusion sole was introduced in November 2017, but it could be special ordered with leather soles after that (though I don't know for how long). So, unless the pair you were looking at was a special order, they are ~8 yrs old.

* So that's my nostalgic trip down memory lane. ... All that said, though, I completely agree with @Diana Delafield and would avoid used boots. Just out of curiosity, how much is the "good deal"?

 

[nanojjw]

Thanks @tstop4me @Diana Delafield your responses were really insightful! I've decided not to go ahead with the used skates.

They did have '2452' stamped inside. They were about $100 with a pair of Jackson Mirage blades mounted on them.

For reference I am an adult male skater, 6' tall and about 175 lbs. Been learning to skate for about 2 years now, about a USFS basic 8 level of skill.

Talking to my skating instructor, I'm going to go try out a Jackson Freestyle and Edea Overture, he feels those are appropriate for my level. I'm wondering what is the general opinion on those two skates are for my level?

 

[tstop4me]

For reference I am an adult male skater, 6' tall and about 175 lbs. Been learning to skate for about 2 years now, about a USFS basic 8 level of skill.

Talking to my skating instructor, I'm going to go try out a Jackson Freestyle and Edea Overture, he feels those are appropriate for my level. I'm wondering what is the general opinion on those two skates are for my level?

* Your new question is likely to be overlooked by the appropriate forum members, since it's far removed from your original title question. So I'll alert someone well qualified to answer (see below). Just a preliminary comment: I'm an adult male skater, substantially shorter and lighter than you. I wear Jacksons. I can tell you that the Jackson Freestyle will not provide the support you need.

* I'll first ask some additional info to speed things up. Other forum members, in particular @Ic3Rabbit, can give you competent recommendations.

* What boots and blades have you been skating on?


* What is your foot type, according to the chart given in (sorry, the short link failed on me, so here's the long link): https://i0.wp.com/ancestralfindings...ape-and-Your-Genealogy-chart.jpg?w=1013&ssl=1

* What is your arch height (best guess: very low, low, medium, high, very high)?

* What is your heel width relative to your ball width? For figure skate boots, a snug fit at the heel is crucial. If your ball is substantially wider than your heel, you might need a split-width boot.

* If you tell us where you live (town, state or province, country), someone here can recommend fitters for you.

* Hope all works out well.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

* Your new question is likely to be overlooked by the appropriate forum members, since it's far removed from your original title question. So I'll alert someone well qualified to answer (see below). Just a preliminary comment: I'm an adult male skater, substantially shorter and lighter than you. I wear Jacksons. I can tell you that the Jackson Freestyle will not provide the support you need.

* I'll first ask some additional info to speed things up. Other forum members, in particular @Ic3Rabbit, can give you competent recommendations.

* What boots and blades have you been skating on?


* What is your foot type, according to the chart given in (sorry, the short link failed on me, so here's the long link): https://i0.wp.com/ancestralfindings...ape-and-Your-Genealogy-chart.jpg?w=1013&ssl=1

* What is your arch height (best guess: very low, low, medium, high, very high)?

* What is your heel width relative to your ball width? For figure skate boots, a snug fit at the heel is crucial. If your ball is substantially wider than your heel, you might need a split-width boot.

* If you tell us where you live (town, state or province, country), someone here can recommend fitters for you.

* Hope all works out well

@nanojjw I need to know your foot shape/type and arches to better help you and know what brands to suggest. But from what you'd said I will tell you this. If Jackson fits, Edea will not. Also, the Jackson's you suggest are no where near stiff enough for your height/weight stats. If a Jackson truly ends up being what would best fit you when you supply the info we need: Premier 2852 would be what is best in a Jackson for you.

Now, if Edea ends up being what works for you then Chorus or Concerto.

Heck, there's a chance that you could give your foot and arch stats and neither of those brands will be the suggestion.

And then once we figure out your boot, then we have to get you a blade.

So, please let us know the info that was asked for and we can help you further.

Good luck!

 

[nanojjw]

Hi @Ic3Rabbit @tstop4me thanks for helping me out.

Here are my foot measurements:

* What boots and blades have you been skating on?
Been doing LTS on Hockey skates, Bauer Supreme M3

* What is your foot type?
Closest to the 'greek' shape in the chart although my second toe doesn't stick out too far.

* What is your arch height (best guess: very low, low, medium, high, very high)?
High

* What is your heel width relative to your ball width? For figure skate boots, a snug fit at the heel is crucial. If your ball is substantially wider than your heel, you might need a split-width boot.
Left foot: Ball width = 95mm (3 3/4 inch) | Heel width = 66mm (2 5/8 inch)
Right foot: Ball width = 100mm (3 15/16 inch) | Heel width = 66mm (2 5/8 inch)
Foot length is 260mm (L) and 265 mm (R) if that is relevant.

* If you tell us where you live (town, state or province, country), someone here can recommend fitters for you.
Vancouver, Canada. There's only two shops here, been to both and have gotten mixed advice.

Thanks!

 

[Diana Delafield]

Hi @Ic3Rabbit @tstop4me thanks for helping me out.

Here are my foot measurements:

* What boots and blades have you been skating on?
Been doing LTS on Hockey skates, Bauer Supreme M3

* What is your foot type?
Closest to the 'greek' shape in the chart although my second toe doesn't stick out too far.

* What is your arch height (best guess: very low, low, medium, high, very high)?
High

* What is your heel width relative to your ball width? For figure skate boots, a snug fit at the heel is crucial. If your ball is substantially wider than your heel, you might need a split-width boot.
Left foot: Ball width = 95mm (3 3/4 inch) | Heel width = 66mm (2 5/8 inch)
Right foot: Ball width = 100mm (3 15/16 inch) | Heel width = 66mm (2 5/8 inch)
Foot length is 260mm (L) and 265 mm (R) if that is relevant.

* If you tell us where you live (town, state or province, country), someone here can recommend fitters for you.
Vancouver, Canada. There's only two shops here, been to both and have gotten mixed advice.

Thanks!

Cyclone Taylor. I've used them off and on (moved away for awhile, now back in Richmond) all my life. It used to be all one store and we'd go there for my figure skates and my brothers' hockey skates. Now, as you know, there are separate stores for the two sports.

 

[nanojjw]

Cyclone Taylor. I've used them off and on (moved away for awhile, now back in Richmond) all my life. It used to be all one store and we'd go there for my figure skates and my brothers' hockey skates. Now, as you know, there are separate stores for the two sports.

How has your experience with them been recently? They recommended me to start off in Jackson Mystique, which from my research here and elsewhere is likely not supportive enough for an adult of my size. After that, I've been questioning their advice.

 

[Diana Delafield]

How has your experience with them been recently? They recommended me to start off in Jackson Mystique, which from my research here and elsewhere is likely not supportive enough for an adult of my size. After that, I've been questioning their advice.

No problems here, and my pairs partner also buys his boots and blades there so it's not as if they're better with women's skates than men's. I do know there have been two new fitters this year, but I haven't had any dealings with either of them yet.

I'd suggest if they recommend the Mystique, that you maybe say you've tried them on and they don't feel strong enough. If they feel Jacksons are the right brand for your foot shape, or Edea, tell them you've had the models @Ic3Rabbit mentioned recommended to you because of your height and weight, and could you try them on, please? Fitters get a lot of hassle from Skating Mothers and depending on who they just went a few rounds with over a kid's skates, anybody can get a bit jaded. Shops are also having problems with delays in getting any equipment, and then dealing with customers who have become used to next-day Amazon-style order fulfillments. I've found if I keep it pleasant with a touch of sympathy over how difficult their job has become, any fitter will go out of her/his way to oblige.

And of course, they want to make a sale, so if you approach them with "I don't think the Mystiques feel right for me, thanks, but I'm keen to try the....whichever" they'll be happy to oblige. Good luck!

 

[Query]

When I said, in another thread, that I was 140 lbs, Ic3Rabbit implied Jackson Freestyles weren't appropriate for that much weight, even though I'm not a high level skater. (I had bought used Freestyles, which largely broke down in a couple months or so - though in fairness, when I bought them, they were already half as stiff as new boots when I bought them, and the ones I bought were for ladies, but I'm a guy.) You are heavier. So be a bit cautious of the advice of your instructor on boots. That advice might be based on Jackson's own tables at jacksonskate.com for lower level skates - which might be based on the assumption that everyone who uses them is a small kid. (they say they are for skaters over 80 lbs - but maybe not that much over.) Some skating instructors don't know everything about all types of boots, so they might sometimes rely just on the manufacturer's advice.

Maybe that is why no one here is agreeing with your instructor.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

* Did the boots actually have "2452" stamped on them? I'm not completely certain, but I think the original Debut had a different 4-digit numerical code. Just to clarify, you're talking about men's black boots, correct? [There is a different numerical code for women's white boots, but that's not what I'm talking about.]

* The "suede upper" is not a suede leather upper, if that's what you were hoping for. It's fabricated from a synthetic microfiber material.

* I'm a member of another skating forum as well. There we had an extensive thread on the Debut when it was first introduced; that thread also followed the boot's evolution. So from the posts there, I can tell you that the original Debut with leather soles was on the market for only a brief time. It was introduced in July 2017. The new model with the Fusion sole was introduced in November 2017, but it could be special ordered with leather soles after that (though I don't know for how long). So, unless the pair you were looking at was a special order, they are ~8 yrs old.

* So that's my nostalgic trip down memory lane. ... All that said, though, I completely agree with @Diana Delafield and would avoid used boots. Just out of curiosity, how much is the "good deal"?

Everything else you sent is great, I will say though if those foot measurements are taken by you, then they aren't accurate. You cannot take your own measurements for skates.

 

[tstop4me]

Everything else you sent is great, I will say though if those foot measurements are taken by you, then they aren't accurate. You cannot take your own measurements for skates.

Hi. You quoted my post by mistake, instead of the OP's. You are correct that the OP will need to have measurements taken by the fitter to get correct sizing. But based on the additional info the OP has given, what brands and models would you recommend for the OP? Thanks.

 

[nanojjw]

Everything else you sent is great, I will say though if those foot measurements are taken by you, then they aren't accurate. You cannot take your own measurements for skates.

Yes, those were taken by me, haha.

@Ic3Rabbit Can you elaborate on why you said "If Jackson fits, Edea will not."?

I went the local skate shop today and tried both Edea and Jackson skates, both felt fine on my feet. Sized 7.5M Jacksons fit well. Due to limited selection on hand, I was only able to try a 260C Edea Chorus, which felt squished for my big toe and second toe. The fitter and I agreed that 265C is probably my ideal size for Edeas. I liked the Edeas and are leaning towards them.

Give my feet shape and arch height, do you think Edeas are the best for me or do you have any other boot suggestions? Thanks in advance!

 

[tstop4me]

I went the local skate shop today and tried both Edea and Jackson skates, both felt fine on my feet. Sized 7.5M Jacksons fit well.

What model Jacksons did you try on? Was it a kit (boot plus pre-attached blade) such as the Mystique? Be aware that the higher grade boots (boots sold separately; you need to buy separate blades) often have a different fit from the lower grade boots (some exceptions apply). Lower grade boots are softer and tend to have a more relaxed, comfy fit; they may feel great in the store, but not perform well on the ice. Higher grade boots are stiffer and tend to have a more tailored, snugger fit; they may not necessarily feel comfy in the store and will require more extensive break-in, but they will perform better on the ice afterwards.

Many shops do not stock higher grade boots for men; small market. The shop may have to order them for you to try on. Check what their policies and fees (if any) are.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Yes, those were taken by me, haha.

@Ic3Rabbit Can you elaborate on why you said "If Jackson fits, Edea will not."?

I went the local skate shop today and tried both Edea and Jackson skates, both felt fine on my feet. Sized 7.5M Jacksons fit well. Due to limited selection on hand, I was only able to try a 260C Edea Chorus, which felt squished for my big toe and second toe. The fitter and I agreed that 265C is probably my ideal size for Edeas. I liked the Edeas and are leaning towards them.

Give my feet shape and arch height, do you think Edeas are the best for me or do you have any other boot suggestions? Thanks in advance!

Because if you have a Greek shaped foot you should fit Jackson, Risport RF line, and possibly Graf. Certain boot brands fit certain foot shapes.

 

[nanojjw]

Thanks to everyone's advice, I ended up getting the Risport RF3 Pros. I've been skating in them for a bit but still getting some pain after 30 mins on the ice.

I have greek/roman foot (big toe almost as long as second toe) as well as long, long toes. My big toe and small toe don't match the toe profile of the skate and are getting squished in the toe box. This is causing me pain in the toes as well as my metatarsal joint. I've gotten the skates stretched and punched out some already but it hasn't been enough. There's a lot of flexibility in my foot/toes so they always 'fit' in the skate and always feel okay at the shop but applying more force on the ice eventually reveals it wasn't enough.

So my questions to the pros are:
1. Do I keep asking the shop to stretch and punch until the pain goes away? Is there anything else I should be asking for?
2. I know figure skates don't fit like sneakers and toes will be a little squished together, but how much squish is okay? Given my big toe and second toe are almost the same length, should my skate end up looking like L-shaped at the toe after they stretch and punch it?
3. Is there any way to keep my toes in their "natural position" at the shop to test my fit after they stretch/punch? I hate having to go back to the shop, again and again. I was thinking sports tape some toes together so they don't contort to weird positions. Is that recommended or am I going to make my skate too loose?

Thanks!

 

[tstop4me]

Thanks to everyone's advice, I ended up getting the Risport RF3 Pros. I've been skating in them for a bit but still getting some pain after 30 mins on the ice.

I have greek/roman foot (big toe almost as long as second toe) as well as long, long toes. My big toe and small toe don't match the toe profile of the skate and are getting squished in the toe box. This is causing me pain in the toes as well as my metatarsal joint. I've gotten the skates stretched and punched out some already but it hasn't been enough. There's a lot of flexibility in my foot/toes so they always 'fit' in the skate and always feel okay at the shop but applying more force on the ice eventually reveals it wasn't enough.

So my questions to the pros are:
1. Do I keep asking the shop to stretch and punch until the pain goes away? Is there anything else I should be asking for?
2. I know figure skates don't fit like sneakers and toes will be a little squished together, but how much squish is okay? Given my big toe and second toe are almost the same length, should my skate end up looking like L-shaped at the toe after they stretch and punch it?
3. Is there any way to keep my toes in their "natural position" at the shop to test my fit after they stretch/punch? I hate having to go back to the shop, again and again. I was thinking sports tape some toes together so they don't contort to weird positions. Is that recommended or am I going to make my skate too loose?

Thanks!

See if these previous posts help. In your case, the blades are already mounted. So put hard guards over the blades. For tests in which you need to stand, steady yourself by placing your hands against the sides of a door frame (one hand on each side).

* With respect to heel lock:

- Have a helper available.

- Make sure the floor area in which you're trying on the boot is covered with carpet, a rug, or a soft mat.

- While you are sitting, make sure that the heel of your foot is properly seated into the heel pocket of the boot, and that the boot is properly laced.

- Now have someone else help you. That other person (crouching down low) should hold the front of the boot around the outsole with one hand, and the back of the boot around the heel with the other. They should not squeeze down on your foot. They should hold the boot firmly against the (covered) floor.

- Now stand up. Try to wiggle the heel of your foot up-and-down and side-to-side. Ideally the heel of your foot should not move within the heel pocket of the boot. Only a very small amount due to compression of the padding. But no significant slipping up-and-down and side-to-side (this is hard to describe, but you shouldn't feel the heel of your foot sliding against the interior surface of the heel pocket, as opposed to compressing padding).

- If there is significant slipping, the heel pocket is too big. If the heel of your foot is painfully pinched, the heel pocket is too small. If the heel of your foot is gripped snugly, there is no significant slipping, and there is no painful pinching, the heel pocket is just right.

Further fit checks; while in a standing position.

* Ideally (which is rarely the case), your toes should lightly brush the lining of the boot. The lining will compress with break-in, and you will get more clearance; so you don't want too much clearance at this point.

* You should be able to wiggle your toes slightly up-and-down and side-to-side.

* If you feel slight pressure against any one (or couple) of your toes, that can probably be fixed via heat molding/punching. But if your toes are all tightly cramped, either the width or the length is too small.

* Assuming the length and width are OK, you have excessive height (volume) in the toe/ball region if you can curl your toes up without touching the lining of the top of the toebox. Similarly, you have excessive height, if you can form your toes into a claw and push your ball up.

* As long as the height is not overly excessive, it's useful to have a high toebox. If you're lucky, you can skate with the included stock removable footbed (removable insole). But many skaters need to replace the stock removable footbed with a corrective footbed or orthotic. These usually take up more height than the stock unit. If the height of the toebox is too low, sometimes there's not enough room to accommodate the requisite corrective footbed or orthotic; so keep that in mind. If the fit is otherwise fine, but you find the toebox a bit too high, there is a fix (as long as you skate with socks on): Place a foam pad over your bare toes, and then roll the sock on over the pad. Obviously, if there's a boot that fits without doing this, that would be preferable.

- Different portions of the boot are more flexible, and are more amenable to reshaping. The heel pocket is very rigid, the toebox is not as rigid, and the rest of the uppers, with an important exception, is relatively more flexible. The important exception is the region of the uppers near the seam where it is fastened to the sole, since this seam constrains flexibility.

- Proper heel fit is crucial; but the heel pocket is the most rigid portion of the boot. My advice is, if the heel of your foot doesn't lock into the heel pocket of the boot properly from the start, get another boot. In particular, if the heel pocket is too big, heating it and squeezing it will likely cause uncomfortable pinch points. In some instances, if the heel pocket is slightly too small, you might be able to get away with heating it and expanding it with a proper tool. But best to have a heel pocket that fits without modification.

- If the toebox is too small in any direction, it can be heated and expanded with a proper tool. Depending on the degree of reshaping, a couple of iterations may be needed. The amount of reshaping that can be accommodated depends on the boot. If some toes are squished, check with the tech whether the toebox can be expanded enough, or whether you need a different size. But what happens if the toebox is too large in any direction? What happens if you heat it up and squeeze it? As discussed above, you will end up with either a squashed or crumpled toebox, because the wall thickness of the thermoplastic won't increase during the operation.

- As for the rest of the uppers, when it is heated, pressure applied by hand or by the laces will shape the boot to your foot. One possible exception is if you have prominent ankle bones. Those might require follow-up spot heating and punching out with a proper tool (again, a couple of iterations may be needed).

First verify that you have proper heel lock. If you do, and the tech has punched out the toebox as much as possible, you will need a split-width boot (ball width greater size than heel width). Depending on how great a split width difference you need, you might need a semi-custom or custom order. I don't have any experience with Risport. Options are available with Jacksons.

 

[nanojjw]

Thanks for the info @tstop4me. I do have proper heel lock in my current c-width boots.

I'm not sure about going to split-width boots. The ball of my foot fit fine. It's my toes that do not fit the profile of the boot. If I got a bigger ball width, wouldn't that be too loose?

Should I be getting a longer boot to compensate for my toes?

Just thinking out loud here: how would you experts fit someone with an orient or a square foot shape? Obviously, if they got a boot that is the same length as their foot, it would squish their big toe and small toe. Their square toe profile would not fit the round profile of a skate toebox. Would you recommend this hypothetical person to get a longer boot?

@Ic3Rabbit Since you recommended the Risport skate, I assume you are familiar with them. Do you know what Risport recommends for skate length vs foot length? For example, Edea recommended foot length+5mm (max 10mm) for skate size. I couldn't find anything similar for Risport. Hoping you would know. I want to make sure I wasn't given undersized skates. Thanks in advance!

 

[tstop4me]

Thanks for the info @tstop4me. I do have proper heel lock in my current c-width boots.

I'm not sure about going to split-width boots. The ball of my foot fit fine. It's my toes that do not fit the profile of the boot. If I got a bigger ball width, wouldn't that be too loose?

Should I be getting a longer boot to compensate for my toes?

Just thinking out loud here: how would you experts fit someone with an orient or a square foot shape? Obviously, if they got a boot that is the same length as their foot, it would squish their big toe and small toe. Their square toe profile would not fit the round profile of a skate toebox. Would you recommend this hypothetical person to get a longer boot?

* I have Orient-shaped feet with narrow heels. If you want to know what a snug, conformal toebox would look like, take a look at the toeboxes on Altra running shoes (I wear the Solstice model). AFAIK, there is no stock figure skate boot with such a toebox, and I don't know whether any boot maker would provide one even on a full custom (but I've never asked).

* I wear a stock Jackson Supreme 8W (which comes stock split width to some degree; for a greater split-width difference, semi-custom and custom options are available). My tech punched out the toebox (as I described above) to widen the sides further. It's not an ideal configuration, but I can wiggle my toes; the toes are not scrunched against each other; the toes are not scrunched against the toebox or pushed up.

* With respect to your concerns about split widths, remember that there is the extended transition zone along the instep from the ball to the heel. If the heel is snug and the instep is snug, you'll be OK even if the ball is a bit (not grossly) wider than ideal. Remember, also, the instep region is more amenable to heat molding and can be further snugged by lacing.

* With respect to your Risports, see how much further widening of the toebox your tech can do. Remember that the toebox has constraints on reshaping due to its innate geometry. Localized L-shaped punching to lengthen the toebox to accommodate your big toe and first toe might not be viable, but see what your tech thinks.

* With respect to a longer size boot, you'll need to find out how much longer a stock boot you'll need to accommodate your toes comfortably. The big question then is whether you'll still have a proper fit for the rest of your foot.