skater Flatt quickly ‘growing up'

[blue_idealist]

Well, I'm excited to see Rachael attempt it even if it does end up being URed.

 

[Mathman]

Well, that is figure skating's dilemma in a nutshell. Is it a sport or not?

If it is a sport, then, no, things like a 1000 megawatt smile and capturing the hearts of the audience -- pleasant as that may be -- should not get you any extra points on your scorecard.

About spins, the U.S. judges did not like Rachael's OK spins as much as they liked Mirai's superb ones. But the CoP gives them very little to work with. The main thing is the level. If you do the required number of changes of positions, etc., however badly, by definition you get a level 4. The GOEs are factored so severely that even if you are Denise Biellmann or Lucinda Ruh and get straight +3's on all your spins, that still doesn't amount to much on the score card.

For instance, on Mirai's closing level four combination spin the judges gave her all plus GOEs, three 3's, four 2.s, and a couple of 1's. After factoring, this netted her only 1.07 points.

For Rachael, on one spin she got seven 0's and 2 one's. She picked up an extra 0.07 points for her effort and it's on to the next jump. She still got 2.97 points for the element because it was level four.

For better or for worse, the CoP was an attempt to make figure skating "more like a real sport" and less like a beauty pageant. So, OK...here we are. How do we like it so far? hwell:

 

[janetfan]

Well, that is figure skating's dilemma in a nutshell. Is it a sport or not?

If it is a sport, then, no, things like a 1000 megawatt smile and capturing the hearts of the audience -- pleasant as that may be -- should not get you any extra points on your scorecard.

About spins, the U.S. judges did not like Rachael's OK spins as much as they liked Mirai's superb ones. But the CoP gives them very little to work with. The main thing is the level. If you do the required number of changes of positions, etc., however badly, by definition you get a level 4. The GOEs are factored so severely that even if you are Denise Biellmann or Lucinda Ruh and get straight +3's on all your spins, that still doesn't amount to much on the score card.

For instance, on Mirai's closing level four combination spin the judges gave her all plus GOEs, three 3's, four 2.s, and a couple of 1's. After factoring, this netted her only 1.07 points.

For Rachael, on one spin she got seven 0's and 2 one's. She picked up an extra 0.07 points for her effort and it's on to the next jump. She still got 2.97 points for the element because it was level four.

For better or for worse, the CoP was an attempt to make figure skating "more like a real sport" and less like a beauty pageant. So, OK...here we are. How do we like it so far? hwell:

Sorry - I deleted my last post because I decided it was excessive......

Your question is interesting and I am starting to like many aspects of the CoP. I think we still have a problem in that "judges are human" not to mention political. The new scoring system does not change the fact that much of skating is still subjective.

But anyone can see that certain skaters have superior ice coverage, better spins, straighter jumps, etc.
What good is a system that gives an average at best spinner a similar score to a superb spinner? Or scores a crooked jump with a scratchy landing better than a clean jump that might be an inch short in rotation?

Why have a PE mark if it is either ignored or lacking proper guidelines? TR seems as mysterious to some judges as physics.

At Natls we saw one skater with very good SS and another who still has many juniorish qualities. If the difference is not properly reflected in the scoring then I say CoP is no different than 6.0. It is still determined by subjectivity of the judges and too heavily influenced by reputation.

We saw that at Natls as one skater received equal pcs to another although even the most casual of fans could see a difference in the quality of their skating.

 

[Olympia]

Very frustrating when you put it that way, Math. I fear that some of the best things in skating simply can't be quantified. The fact is that it isn't totally a sport, or if it is totally a sport, then it's a sport like no other. I'm sorry if that makes it complicated for casual viewers who are only satisfied with a clear winner. But we have to figure out a way to make it true to itself, and I think CoP isn't there yet. That's not a hanging offense, though. It's a compelling sport for those who love it, and it will always attract a core of fans, though it won't ever rival basketball or convert the entire fan base of the Knicks and the Lakers.

 

[prettykeys]

Well, that is figure skating's dilemma in a nutshell. Is it a sport or not?

If it is a sport, then, no, things like a 1000 megawatt smile and capturing the hearts of the audience -- pleasant as that may be -- should not get you any extra points on your scorecard.

It's a performance sport. So yeah, the smile and audience reaction does matter, along with the athletic component. The debate seems more about how much the athletic part and the performance part should count towards the overall evaluation of a program.

Anyway, I tend to think of spins, on their own, as reflecting an aspect of skating athleticism. And in that sense, I agree in that they are undervalued in CoP at the moment. "Difficult" spins can be successfully but poorly executed, so successful execution by itself should not define the reward. Compare that to jumps--ugly jumps are the ones that are more poorly executed and less often successful. I'd say the jumps scoring is quite well done; spins, not so much.

 

[R.D.]

Well, to be quite honest, a figure-skating board isn't necessarily the best place to get an unbiased opinion as to whether it's a real sport or not

I think of it more as a hybrid. Not all of one or the other.

 

[lavender]

Wow thanks Blades for the link to Oksana's short. I use to really like Oksana but even so I still thought Nancy should have won the Olympics.

 

[janetfan]

Well, to be quite honest, a figure-skating board isn't necessarily the best place to get an unbiased opinion as to whether it's a real sport or not

.

Then where is the best place?

At the moment skating is a sport that is not only about how high you jump or how fast you can skate and spin. The are marks for things like CH, IN and PE.

Skating as defined by it's own rules is clearly a sport that not only values but incorporates music, Dance, and dramatic arts into it's scoring sytem. Some could even argue for wardrobe/costuming/makeup as being an integral part of a skater's presentation.

Speed skating and even barrel jumping (where is joesitz ) feel more like pure sport. Figure skating is a unique blend of athleticism and artistry.

I still don't think it is being judged properly - but may be heading in the right direction. The new system is still working out the kinks - of which there are plenty.

 

[colleen o'neill]

I'm sorry to take Rachael's thread into Baiul territory again.. But really, I must object.. that Black Swan program is exquisite. It truly captures the character of the role. It manages to incorporate recognizable movements from the ballet choreography as well as it's ever been done , including the ending crescendo of turns .It's totally on a par with her Dying Swan. If you object to the smile, then you don't know Odile, (the femme fatale of swan maidens ).. In the ballet , her smile , along with her virtuosity, enraptures the whole court..but in her smile ,the audience is meant to see her inner exultation that the whole deception is working. Far from distracting me , I was wowed that she had it all down, even to that detail.

That Oxana was 15 makes it even more mind-boggling that she could express the role with such confidence and such depth of understanding at her age. In ballet that's one of the first big tests of a ballerina..can she be convincing as both Odette and Odile. Not all of them succeed .

Oxana's '93 SP was great..kind of an "Oxana sampler" in that it contained such a variety of expression..but as an artistic tour de force , it doesn't rival either of the swan programs. I've often thought perhaps ballet was robbed when she chose skating.

 

[Blades of Passion]

The choreography of a ballet is of no interest to me when evaluating a skating performance. I don't find it special that someone attempted to copy a dance from somewhere else and do it on ice. Skating is its own craft. For example, when Oksana is doing back pumps into her Triple Lutz, that is a break in the so-called ballet.

Moreover, skating is about the reflecting the music that is playing within the span of time you are on the ice. Taking moves from the scope of an ENTIRE ballet that were meant to express certain ideas within the ballet as a whole, and then copying and pasting them into a skating performance which is only a few minutes length of music, is not effective interpretation of the music for the skating performance.

 

[PolymerBob]

I wonder though colleen....... do you think this would be better:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6zKfZVurJY

I guess not

Well, more Americans watched that short program than watched most Superbowls.

 

[colleen o'neill]

Blades, I agree with much of your general sentiment, and have often held forth much along those lines...(So you want to do Romeo & Juliet. You don't need to mime stabbing yourself or drinking poison and dying. You could just do the balcony scene, or just use the music to express what you feel when you hear it...move the way it make you want to move.)

But for me, this argument doesn't really apply,in this case. True, it often makes for a ridiculous program to try to "act out" a whole ballet (or opera, or movie, or novel) in the space of roughly 4min. But that's not what's being done here..Odile appears in part of one scene out of the whole ballet, and this program doesn't tell the story, it captures a moment in the story, and uses only the music from that moment..This is a character study , and an astute one.
Part of what makes it so brilliant is that it doesn't directly " copy and paste" from the ballet, but adapts, interprets, finds skating equivalencies of the ballet choreography ,and uses the shared positions and movements that exist in the two disciplines to create the overall effect. This was thoroughly thought out , and no cheap or easy choices were made.
Likewise,her white swan..they chose Saint Saens' The Swan..the Dying Swan in ballet..not Tchaikovsky's music . No Odette..just beautiful swan-like movements..no heartbreak over betrayal, no drowning oneself in the lake required..and again, the spell was cast without any simple copying and pasting.

And it seems to me that at that time , we saw a lot of plain stroking of one kind or another leading into jumps, no?

 

[janetfan]

Blades, I agree with much of your general sentiment, and have often held forth much along those lines...(So you want to do Romeo & Juliet. You don't need to mime stabbing yourself or drinking poison and dying. You could just do the balcony scene, or just use the music to express what you feel when you hear it...move the way it make you want to move.)

But for me, this argument doesn't really apply,in this case. True, it often makes for a ridiculous program to try to "act out" a whole ballet (or opera, or movie, or novel) in the space of roughly 4min. But that's not what's being done here..Odile appears in part of one scene out of the whole ballet, and this program doesn't tell the story, it captures a moment in the story, and uses only the music from that moment..This is a character study , and an astute one.
Part of what makes it so brilliant is that it doesn't directly " copy and paste" from the ballet, but adapts, interprets, finds skating equivalencies of the ballet choreography ,and uses the shared positions and movements that exist in the two disciplines to create the overall effect. This was thoroughly thought out , and no cheap or easy choices were made.
Likewise,her white swan..they chose Saint Saens' The Swan..the Dying Swan in ballet..not Tchaikovsky's music . No Odette..just beautiful swan-like movements..no heartbreak over betrayal, no drowning oneself in the lake required..and again, the spell was cast without any simple copying and pasting.

And it seems to me that at that time , we saw a lot of plain stroking of one kind or another leading into jumps, no?

Thanks for both of your posts on this colleen. It is interesting hearing your thoughts which puts Oksana's '94 SP in a new light for me.

I think I will watch it again now and after your posts I am sure I will enjoy it even more. :yes:

 

[Layfan]

Blades, I agree with much of your general sentiment, and have often held forth much along those lines...(So you want to do Romeo & Juliet. You don't need to mime stabbing yourself or drinking poison and dying. You could just do the balcony scene, or just use the music to express what you feel when you hear it...move the way it make you want to move.)

But for me, this argument doesn't really apply,in this case. True, it often makes for a ridiculous program to try to "act out" a whole ballet (or opera, or movie, or novel) in the space of roughly 4min. But that's not what's being done here..Odile appears in part of one scene out of the whole ballet, and this program doesn't tell the story, it captures a moment in the story, and uses only the music from that moment..This is a character study , and an astute one.
Part of what makes it so brilliant is that it doesn't directly " copy and paste" from the ballet, but adapts, interprets, finds skating equivalencies of the ballet choreography ,and uses the shared positions and movements that exist in the two disciplines to create the overall effect. This was thoroughly thought out , and no cheap or easy choices were made.
Likewise,her white swan..they chose Saint Saens' The Swan..the Dying Swan in ballet..not Tchaikovsky's music . No Odette..just beautiful swan-like movements..no heartbreak over betrayal, no drowning oneself in the lake required..and again, the spell was cast without any simple copying and pasting.

And it seems to me that at that time , we saw a lot of plain stroking of one kind or another leading into jumps, no?

I so, so I agree. I still love watching the way Oksana adapted ballet steps into skating. And also with your earlier post, her costume, the choreography, everything was bold and it was just utterly unforgettable. I can't imagine any lady today daring to wear a costume like that for an SP.
Now that I know so much more about skating I'm not entirely comfortable that Oskana won gold with no combinations in her LP when Nancy was doing a 3-3. But Oskana brought a new way of moving to skating - or at least brought it back to the forefront. Sasha perfected it

 

[Blades of Passion]

True, it often makes for a ridiculous program to try to "act out" a whole ballet (or opera, or movie, or novel) in the space of roughly 4min. But that's not what's being done here..Odile appears in part of one scene out of the whole ballet, and this program doesn't tell the story, it captures a moment in the story, and uses only the music from that moment..This is a character study , and an astute one.

Part of what makes it so brilliant is that it doesn't directly " copy and paste" from the ballet, but adapts, interprets, finds skating equivalencies of the ballet choreography, and uses the shared positions and movements that exist in the two disciplines to create the overall effect. This was thoroughly thought out , and no cheap or easy choices were made.

And it seems to me that at that time , we saw a lot of plain stroking of one kind or another leading into jumps, no?

Baiul only had plain stroking going into both her 3Lutz and 2Axel so I'm not sure about what you mean with your last point. This is a program where transitions before every jump would actually make sense but Baiul didn't do that. There were clear breaks in the idea of the program.

I still don't like the idea that Baiul is portraying a character from anything other than the 2 minutes and 40 seconds of music she is skating to either. The character in Swan Lake clearly is built around other implications in the ballet, even if she only appears in one scene. I believe no matter what, the skater should be interpreting the music that is actually playing and trying to show us the significance that music has on its own. For me, Baiul's expression did not reflect the music that was playing at times. Maybe she was reflecting a character from Swan Lake but, again, that just doesn't matter to me at all if it doesn't service the actual skating program and the music we hear in that span of time.

The ending to the program is SO manic. It just doesn't look good. She does 5 different body poses as if a spell of turrets is taking her over. What's worse is that the last 2 poses come after the music has ended. It gives off the impression of a fish desperately flopping around after it has been thrown on land.

I also had that problem with Bonaly's SP from this same competition. At the end of the program she goes into a full split, seemingly as her final pose, and it's perfectly in time with the music and looks great. But then less than a second later she changes to a completely different position after the music has ended. It detracts from the effect.

I am VERY glad we are debating artistry here, though. Such a refreshing change of pace. And who would have thought it would come from a Rachel Flatt thread??

 

[colleen o'neill]

No,no, no. I'm not getting into a hyperbole slinging contest.. ( tourettes, flopping fish , Baiul = Bonaly sorry, no nibbles )

The meaning of my last comment ?..I just meant that in those years we saw many, many programs that relied on plain stroking leading in to jumps..Just as we've seen many over the years that finished off the music and didn't lose much by it. I never said this was the all time greatest performance ever. It was great for the things I mentioned...to those who appreciate those things.

Oxana studied ballet.Very seriously, by the looks of things. Obviously , that musical interpretation held significance for her.( and for anyone who was at all familiar with the ballet .. which could number in the millions )...That it holds none for you, because you have no interest in ballet , or perhaps even a resistance to it creeping into skating in any way, doesn't make it officially an inferior program , artistically speaking.

It's just not your cup of tea, and you're not going to taste it. Cool.

As for Rachael, I am looking forward to seeing her program a month or 2 from now. Sorry, Rachael posters.

 

[Blades of Passion]

Oxana studied ballet. Very seriously, by the looks of things. Obviously , that musical interpretation held significance for her.

I wouldn't disagree with this. I appreciate the quality of her body movement and her fluidity. I just don't think it was applied all that well in several parts of this program. (I'm seriously not using hyperbole when I say her ending to the program feels like a flopping fish to me )

 

[ManyCairns]

Not that it's noteworthy news for anyone, but I didn't like either program that season from Oksana. I have a similar reaction as Blades does to the swan program, and as I've probably said before, the LP choreo looked like something from a county fair talent show (I can't claim to have originated that comparison, it came from the guy I was watching the comp with way back when it happened live, and its aptness for me has stuck all these years).

Of course I don't think Oksana was the worst ever or anything but for me she looked like an over-made-up child and (again I qualify) for me the impression was not one of great balletic beauty. And the technical content was not overwhelming to say the least.