Skaters Dispute Figure Skating Stereotypes

[skylark]

These two articles are side by side on the current front page of Icenetwork. I thought it was interesting that Walden, a former competitive skater, and Wagner both listed as part of their motivation [for writing a novel], or [for posing in the Body Issue], as to go against cultural images that don't give the complete picture.

"I had seen Ice Princess, Blades of Glory, all the silly and goofy skating movies," Walden said. "I wanted to show that, in reality, there's so much more going on. It's messy, it's imperfect, but for some reason there's this weird cultural layer where we only want to see it in this sparkly light. I wanted an honest skating story so other skaters could read it."

From Graphic Novel Puts Unique Spin on Figure Skating[/I], by Sarah S. Brannen
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/07/17/242589314


And from the other article:

Portraying figure skating as a sport that demands peak athleticism is something Wagner feels strongly about. ...

"I think people understand that figure skating is a difficult sport, but I think sometimes they don't see it as an athletic sport," she said. "They see that it's beautiful and graceful, but they don't really understand the muscle, the strength, the power, the control that goes into making the movement as beautiful as it is. You need strong back muscles, a strong butt, a strong core, to make the movement happen. I hope they will see that we are strong athletes as well as graceful performers."

FromThree-Time U.S. Champ wants skaters to be portrayed as 'strong athletes' (this is the more descriptive subtitle of the article), by Sarah S. Brannen
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/07/07/240971480

 

[skylark]

Walden's graphic novel features synchro skating. "The competition scenes in the book nail the wild enthusiasm that is a staple of the synchro discipline, with the shrieking and chanting of the crowd." --from the Brannen article.

Are you looking forward to reading this graphic novel? I am. It sounds very fun.



"Figure skating is one of those sports that doesn't get enough recognition for the physical challenges of the sport." --Ashley Wagner

Do you agree? Do you think the IJS scoring system has contributed to the general public gaining a better understanding of the physical challenges? Discuss.

 

[andromache]

Do you agree? Do you think the IJS scoring system has contributed to the general public gaining a better understanding of the physical challenges? Discuss.

At least in the US, I don't think IJS has contributed to the general public gaining a better understanding of anything.

For fans (not the general public), I do think IJS has given us a qualitative methodology through which to analyze, compare, and discuss the physical/technical challenges of figure skating, along with dramatically increasing the physical/technical challenges for the skaters themselves. Spins and footwork are far more demanding than they were under 6.0.

 

[bevybean]

At least in the US, I don't think IJS has contributed to the general public gaining a better understanding of anything.

For fans (not the general public), I do think IJS has given us a qualitative methodology through which to analyze, compare, and discuss the physical/technical challenges of figure skating, along with dramatically increasing the physical/technical challenges for the skaters themselves. Spins and footwork are far more demanding than they were under 6.0.

Agreed, though I do applaud the attempt to take something very subjective and make it more quantifiable.

I think some of the stereotypes will always be around because of the demands of skating. As mentioned in the "Arena" forum's post on whether or not someone can be an elite skater, it takes a certain body type to master the technical skills required. I would certainly hope that if an overweight skater could go out there and land clean triple-triples or even quad with great spins and footwork that the scores would reflect that. However, though that scenario is possible, it isn't very probable. And for some reason the tiny skaters don't seem to look as strong as they must be. What we really need is more skaters who look strong like Ashley Wagner or Max Aaron. (I was mostly thinking about ladies for the first half of this, but really not all of the men look as strong as they must be either.) Who aren't afraid to talk about the training they do, etc. in order to inform the fans and break stereotypes.

 

[Barb]

Agreed, though I do applaud the attempt to take something very subjective and make it more quantifiable.

I think some of the stereotypes will always be around because of the demands of skating. As mentioned in the "Arena" forum's post on whether or not someone can be an elite skater, it takes a certain body type to master the technical skills required. I would certainly hope that if an overweight skater could go out there and land clean triple-triples or even quad with great spins and footwork that the scores would reflect that. However, though that scenario is possible, it isn't very probable. And for some reason the tiny skaters don't seem to look as strong as they must be. What we really need is more skaters who look strong like Ashley Wagner or Max Aaron. (I was mostly thinking about ladies for the first half of this, but really not all of the men look as strong as they must be either.) Who aren't afraid to talk about the training they do, etc. in order to inform the fans and break stereotypes.

But not everyone are the same, Evgenia is winning everything and she does not looks so muscular like Ashley. I doubt that Ashley is working more than Evgenia.And we know that Evgenia has a lot of stamina, she goes to more competitions than most skaters, and does many shows, and she puts more jumps in the second half of the program. Mao Asada was really hard working, and she was known by her great stamina too, her personal trainer said that Mao was the type of person who struggled a lot to build muscle, but she worked like crazy. And maybe some skaters do not benefit from such big muscles.
I think it is great when the skaters themselves share their off ice training, Tessa V. does it, those videos with Adidas are great and lately the Shibs post off ice videos and picture of their off ice training, some people think that skaters are only on the ice.

 

[macy]

But not everyone are the same, Evgenia is winning everything and she does not looks so muscular like Ashley. I doubt that Ashley is working more than Evgenia.And we know that Evgenia has a lot of stamina, she goes to more competitions than most skaters, and does many shows, and she puts more jumps in the second half of the program. Mao Asada was really hard working, and she was known by her great stamina too, her personal trainer said that Mao was the type of person who struggled a lot to build muscle, but she worked like crazy. And maybe some skaters do not benefit from such big muscles.
I think it is great when the skaters themselves share their off ice training, Tessa V. does it, those videos with Adidas are great and lately the Shibs post it off ice videos and picture of their off ice training, some people think that skaters are only on the ice.

it is so interesting to think about and compare how different bodies are capable of different things, or who struggles with things such as building muscles vs stamina. when I was a competitive skater I always had a bit of extra weight on me compared to the other skaters although I was very healthy and strong (I have PCOS ), but I struggled with my stamina compared to building muscle. I had natural muscle build in my legs and had no problem building core/arm/butt muscles through personal training, but after taking the weekend off I would come back on Monday and just die in my programs lol...even if I added in cardio on the weekend. it made training programs so difficult! it's nice to know it wasn't just me who had issues such as this. I always hated how thick my legs were but not much you can do with genetics

sometimes people would think I was a soccer player because of my muscle but they were always surprised when I told them I was a skater, like they didn't expect such an athlete to have definition like that! it always bothered me that my high school didn't give out letters for skating either...we had a high school team put together through our club but wasn't ever recognized or a part of the school district. I remember many times my mom sitting down with people from the school explaining to them why I needed to get out of school an hour early to train...it always made me feel like the work I put in to the sport would never be appreciated or even recognized by others. i'm happy others are speaking out and standing up for the sport since it is misunderstood by so many.

 

[Barb]

it is so interesting to think about and compare how different bodies are capable of different things, or who struggles with things such as building muscles vs stamina. when I was a competitive skater I always had a bit of extra weight on me compared to the other skaters although I was very healthy and strong (I have PCOS ), but I struggled with my stamina compared to building muscle. I had natural muscle build in my legs and had no problem building core/arm/butt muscles through personal training, but after taking the weekend off I would come back on Monday and just die in my programs lol...even if I added in cardio on the weekend. it made training programs so difficult! it's nice to know it wasn't just me who had issues such as this. I always hated how thick my legs were but not much you can do with genetics

.

I have always envied thick/muscular legs . I have noticed that the caucasian and black people very easily get those legs, in Mexico it is rare to see that kind of legs, especially in women. Okay, we do not do a lot of exercise :, but I've met American and European people who do not exercise much and still have muscular legs, unfair :disapp:

 

[macy]

I have always envied thick/muscular legs . I have noticed that the caucasian and black people very easily get those legs, in Mexico it is rare to see that kind of legs, especially in women. Okay, we do not do a lot of exercise :, but I've met American and European people who do not exercise much and still have muscular legs, unfair :disapp:

I have no idea whose genes I got either, nobody else in my family is super muscular! I mean i'm not anymore, I am now a blob but i'm thinking maybe my PCOS contributed to it, since my androgen levels are naturally high. oh well, those legs were able to make me jump high and spin very fast! :agree:

 

[bevybean]

But not everyone are the same, Evgenia is winning everything and she does not looks so muscular like Ashley. I doubt that Ashley is working more than Evgenia.And we know that Evgenia has a lot of stamina, she goes to more competitions than most skaters, and does many shows, and she puts more jumps in the second half of the program. Mao Asada was really hard working, and she was known by her great stamina too, her personal trainer said that Mao was the type of person who struggled a lot to build muscle, but she worked like crazy. And maybe some skaters do not benefit from such big muscles.
I think it is great when the skaters themselves share their off ice training, Tessa V. does it, those videos with Adidas are great and lately the Shibs post off ice videos and picture of their off ice training, some people think that skaters are only on the ice.

This is basically what I meant with the first part --but I'm seeing the faultiness of my own writing. I think their is a reason the sport has so many skaters like this, because it fits better with the demands of the sport. Obviously, someone sculpted like Ashley or Megan Duhamel is still capable of mastering skating, though Ashley did talk about the need to balance to some extent because you need to stay light. And I meant if we suddenly had a lot more skaters like this it might help break stereotypes. But, more importantly, if they start to talk more about it or post pics and videos of the off-ice training --no matter what body type they have-- it would also help to break the stereotype.

Different muscle types are an interesting thing because some of it is genes and some of it is what you do. I know a few theater people who can spot a ballet dancer or former ballet dancer outside of theater because their legs are shaped differently. But, as mentioned, some people can do specific training all they want, but still not develop in the same way. It would seem that for skaters you really need the "quick-twitch" muscle in order to get the jumps. So, do the ones without that muscle type get naturally weeded out from the elite skaters? Then the rest is about how you use your muscles. There are a few skaters out there without the stereotypical body type (Maé-Bérénice Méité comes to mind), but did they struggle more or need to do something extra in order to master the skills? I don't really know. But it does seem reasonable that having a certain body type as the predominant one in a specific sport would happen.

 

[macy]

Different muscle types are an interesting thing because some of it is genes and some of it is what you do. I know a few theater people who can spot a ballet dancer or former ballet dancer outside of theater because their legs are shaped differently. But, as mentioned, some people can do specific training all they want, but still not develop in the same way. It would seem that for skaters you really need the "quick-twitch" muscle in order to get the jumps. So, do the ones without that muscle type get naturally weeded out from the elite skaters? Then the rest is about how you use your muscles. There are a few skaters out there without the stereotypical body type (Maé-Bérénice Méité comes to mind), but did they struggle more or need to do something extra in order to master the skills? I don't really know. But it does seem reasonable that having a certain body type as the predominant one in a specific sport would happen.

I second this, but I also think where you're from/training procedures in different parts of the world have an effect as well. many North American skaters have bulkier muscles all around, whereas Asian or Russian skaters tend to have more of a streamlined, petite look with long lines. gymnastics is this way as well...take aly raisman compared to Aliya mustafina from russia. both amazing gymnasts, but two different kinds of training. Aliya has a more balletic look where aly is legit a beast. of course genetics I believe has the upper hand, but I also think how you train is equally as big a part.

 

[plushyfan]

What we really need is more skaters who look strong like Ashley Wagner or Max Aaron. (I was mostly thinking about ladies for the first half of this, but really not all of the men look as strong as they must be either.) Who aren't afraid to talk about the training they do, etc. in order to inform the fans and break stereotypes.

Plushenko said it in his biography, so I believe this is Mishin's opinion, too:

"A figure skater has a special body. The legs are strong and the arms are thin. The centre of gravity should be down, otherwise he would not be able to make triples, quadruples and cascades."

He was the perfect example. He is a little bit tall for skater, but he was thin, sometimes I think he is too thin, he was on diet in his whole career. He has strong legs but his upper body and his arms aren't too muscular. I'm sure they didn't "forget" about those body parts. Sometimes I was thinking about it he was very consistent and he could be it not because of the mental power but because of these reasons, too. Look at his biggest opponent Joubert ( after Yagudin) was much more muscular in general..

Maybe this is not true but I find it interesting

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

At least in the US, I don't think IJS has contributed to the general public gaining a better understanding of anything.

For fans (not the general public), I do think IJS has given us a qualitative methodology through which to analyze, compare, and discuss the physical/technical challenges of figure skating, along with dramatically increasing the physical/technical challenges for the skaters themselves. Spins and footwork are far more demanding than they were under 6.0.

I think IJS for the general public has made skating seem less arbitrary. i.e. instead of ordinals/placements and scores out of 6.0 that seem so subjective, now there are actual point scores. The points also give a better idea of how skaters actually stack up against each other (e.g. if a competition was close, the scores will reflect that; whereas in the past there was no difference between a runaway victory and a nailbiter)... and tells a better story of how each skater performed. PCS is still subjective, but the technical score (especially the box with the running tally), shows to general viewers that now skaters get awarded points for every element they do, and the quality of these elements (before, you would just count the number of clean triples, rather than the quality of them), instead of just be given a technical score that they assume was derived on a judge's whim (and even that they assume is based on corruption/politicking). Essentially, IJS has made the sport more accountable and fair, and I think even general audiences can identify that.

 

[CanadianSkaterGuy]

I appreciate a variety of body types in skating from Kostner to Medvedeva to Osmond. Even in the US, you can see such a range of body types: Wagner/Nagasu/Edmunds/Gold/Chen/Hicks. For the men, there's a definite technical benefit for to being slimmer (Hanyu, Reynolds, Jin, Plushenko), versus muscular (Aaron, Chan, Joubert) when it comes to jumps and spins -- and it's evident that shorter frames are usually more successful (save for exceptions like Lysacek and Sandhu). Physics definitely gets in the way, so it's easier to be thin because you can rotate faster, but you can't generate the same power/height. From an artistic standpoint, being thinner lends itself to being more "girl-like" or "boy-like", so it's harder to convey mature interpretation, because you still look super young - but it does allow you to move more freely and look more effortless. It would look weird if Medvedeva tried to be Satine, and also weird if Wagner tried to do the girl in the red dress a la Lipnitskaia.

 

[Ender]

I appreciate a variety of body types in skating from Kostner to Medvedeva to Osmond. Even in the US, you can see such a range of body types: Wagner/Nagasu/Edmunds/Gold/Chen/Hicks. For the men, there's a definite technical benefit for to being slimmer (Hanyu, Reynolds, Jin, Plushenko), versus muscular (Aaron, Chan, Joubert) when it comes to jumps and spins -- and it's evident that shorter frames are usually more successful (save for exceptions like Lysacek and Sandhu). Physics definitely gets in the way, so it's easier to be thin because you can rotate faster, but you can't generate the same power/height. From an artistic standpoint, being thinner lends itself to being more "girl-like" or "boy-like", so it's harder to convey mature interpretation, because you still look super young - but it does allow you to move more freely and look more effortless. It would look weird if Medvedeva tried to be Satine, and also weird if Wagner tried to do the girl in the red dress a la Lipnitskaia.

I think the pool of talents for skating is relatively small. That's why we see various body types in skating. In Ballet or other specific style of dancing where everyone wants to get in, the pool of talent is bigger and the top being selected seem to have certain body type. I don't think it's right but it does happen. Like the top ballerina often look slender with long limbs and with a swan neck.

 

[skylark]

Plushenko said it in his biography, so I believe this is Mishin's opinion, too:

"A figure skater has a special body. The legs are strong and the arms are thin. The centre of gravity should be down, otherwise he would not be able to make triples, quadruples and cascades."

He was the perfect example. He is a little bit tall for skater, but he was thin, sometimes I think he is too thin, he was on diet in his whole career. He has strong legs but his upper body and his arms aren't too muscular. I'm sure they didn't "forget" about those body parts. Sometimes I was thinking about it he was very consistent and he could be it not because of the mental power but because of these reasons, too. Look at his biggest opponent Joubert ( after Yagudin) was much more muscular in general..

Maybe this is not true but I find it interesting

I too find it interesting. Audrey Weisinger mentioned the lower center of gravity advantage 10 or so years ago, when she was asked why Asian and Asian-American girls were dominating the ladies' discipline. She is Asian-American herself, and even cited being flat-chested as an advantage.

I'm also interested that Plushenko was on a diet his whole career. I wonder if the Russians tend to be more strict in this regard, especially for the ladies. The Russian girls have more of the lean look, while as mentioned, American ladies' body types run the gamut. Ekaterina Gordeeva said in her book that her coaches were very strict about her diet, even though she was always tiny.

Then too, it depends on the coach. Jenny (or maybe it was Linda Fratianne) said Frank Carroll carried a scale in his car trunk; he weighed the girls in the parking lot, and if they were one pound over, they weren't allowed in the rink that day!

 

[surimi]

Are you looking forward to reading this graphic novel? I am. It sounds very fun.

As long as it's graphic as in illustrated or whatever, and not graphic as in high-rated, I'd be interested. (sorry, I didn't go to icenetwork to check as I'm in somewhat of a hurry)

"Figure skating is one of those sports that doesn't get enough recognition for the physical challenges of the sport." --Ashley Wagner

Do you agree? Do you think the IJS scoring system has contributed to the general public gaining a better understanding of the physical challenges? Discuss.

I think the new scoring system is a step in the right direction, and more understandable and in-depth-discussion-prompting than the old one.
But I also believe that what the sport really needs to fight the it's-not-a-real-sport naysayers, are more behind-the-scenes materials, articles, training videos and the like, that show the amount of work and phycial effort that lies behind those pretty programs. The sport needs to lose the label of being effeminate and princessy, only fit for fragile ladies and tiny guys in sequins (not talking anyone specific here). And I am with CSG above on this - I enjoy variety and I think that's the way to go. I am a fan of Wagner *and* Asada, of Fernandez *and* of Uno, etc. They all work their butts off day by day, both the superslender ones and the more athletic ones, and I would be overjoyed if more awareness was being spread of just how incredibly strong all of the skaters are. The training/event preparation videos show it the best, I think, so I'm a fan of those.

 

[karne]

Then too, it depends on the coach. Jenny (or maybe it was Linda Fratianne) said Frank Carroll carried a scale in his car trunk; he weighed the girls in the parking lot, and if they were one pound over, they weren't allowed in the rink that day!

Yes, and people wonder why I don't much like Frank Carroll....

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

Yes, and people wonder why I don't much like Frank Carroll....

Yeah, sorry but I've never, ever seen Frank do this in my whole career so something seems fishy here.

 

[Barb]

Yeah, sorry but I've never, ever seen Frank do this in my whole career so something seems fishy here.

I think it was an old practice of him,probably he understood that it is dangerous and/or that he will get his payment regardless the weight of his students.

 

[Ic3Rabbit]

I think it was an old practice of him,probably he understood that it is dangerous and/or that he will get his payment regardless the weight of his students.

An old practice? As in how old? I mean, I've seen how he works for a good few decades now, so if this is true it must be ancient.