Solomon's Decision: jumping beans -vs- silver foxes

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The lack of audiences in stadium issue, one main reason is the expensive ticket price. Expensive when compared to other sports.
I can get Worlds tickets at 30% to 50%(depending which sport) of prices of figure skating WC. The price itself is enough to deter unless its an avid fan or someone from 1st world country.

The entrance to JGP is free in many cases - the stands are empty except for Russia and Japan. The tickets to B events are cheap -the stands are empty. At the same time, Megasport with more than 10 000 seats was quite packed for CoR although even official price for the best seats was equal to a half of average monthly salary in Russia. As I said, at the Olympics the stands were empty during early groups of ladies. The same people who did not bother to come early came for the last groups despite ticket prices. Hence, the price is not an issue - the dramatic difference between the quality of skating is. People just don't want to waste time on what does not move them, own country or not. I like curling - both to play and to watch. I watch Russian teams but only women. Men are too weak - I don't watch them. The same is true about hockey, although the gender choice is opposite: why should I spend hours of my life if the Russian women team will surely lose to the Americans or Canadians? People watch their countrymates when they have something to offer as competitors - not for the sake of general support unless they are relatives, friends or big time fans, surely not the general public.

 

[Arbitrary]

I think there still are occasional "Top Jump" competitions, organized locally. My impression is that there is no audience interest, so it is just for the skaters' own enjoyment. Like barrel jumping. (Except that barrel jumping is cool. )
To make it more like hot dog skiing, I think they they would have to allow more interesting moves, like backflips and tumbling passes on skates.

Lack of interest kills. Too much of minimal requirements kills even worse.

You need very little to play E-football with your friends, much more to play A-football or the ice hockey.
Very little needed for cross-country running, skiing. Moderate - for the tennis. Very much needed for FS.
Too few people in the world generally interested in FS, A-football (except the USA), even the ice hockey = compared to E-football and tennis...

 

[Arbitrary]

At the same time, Megasport with more than 10 000 seats was quite packed for CoR although even official price for the best seats was equal to a half of average monthly salary in Russia.

People were promised some exclusive show with unique elements. OK, only two girls delivered the level of excellence, and most of people were interesting in two particular performances.
Like TAT said earlier: "People want to see the high level elements and the associated risk is not accounted by the mob. They want Quad Girls and they know those are available now."

 

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I also feel bad for some of Russia's and Japan's athletes, but I don't think that, apart from the opportunity to see the World, more possibilies to compete internationally on a high level would be that good for them. And I doubt, that even big feds like Russia and Japan would be willing to pay all those additional expenses.
And I don't know exactly how the ISU is funded, but I think they receive money from the member nations.

I read the highlighted phrase several times and still did not get it. Does it mean that a super consistent 200+ scoring Mai Mihara would not gain anything from getting into the worlds team this and last year and Olympic team last year but seeing the world? Or there would be no gains if Alina, Zhenya, Liza, Stasya, and Sofia all went to both Europeans and Worlds rather than being pawns of some political games?

As for the money, I am sure Rusfed would find money for bigger teams. They have no problems sending various juniors to JGP stages filling all the quotas. If money were a big issue they could save on B level competitions making more domestic events where competition is no less tough.

And the wide participation of member nations can be justified by letting everyone compete at the qualifications. Or by adding 2 more groups for the short program of big events. There are 6 groups for short program of the worlds. Make it 8. 90 more minutes, so what? Very few people watch all the 6 groups on the stands - I know that in many cases TV in various countries shows only later groups. The only real change will be that 12 high level skaters will be let to compete making the event much more exciting overall.

 

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People were promised some exclusive show with unique elements. OK, only two girls delivered the level of excellence, and most of people were interesting in two particular performances.
Like TAT said earlier: "People want to see the high level elements and the associated risk is not accounted by the mob. They want Quad Girls and they know those are available now."

I don't get what you mean. There were no promises of unique elements. Quad girls did not participate at CoR. Hanyu did. Yes, he drove the prices to the unreasonable level, yet the stands were packed. Hanyu and big competitions aside, even when a JGP stage and a B level competition were held in a small Russian town Saransk there was much more public than - you pick any name but Japan.

 

[solani]

I read the highlighted phrase several times and still did not get it. Does it mean that a super consistent 200+ scoring Mai Mihara would not gain anything from getting into the worlds team this and last year and Olympic team last year but seeing the world? Or there would be no gains if Alina, Zhenya, Liza, Stasya, and Sofia all went to both Europeans and Worlds rather than being pawns of some political games?

As for the money, I am sure Rusfed would find money for bigger teams. They have no problems sending various juniors to JGP stages filling all the quotas. If money were a big issue they could save on B level competitions making more domestic events where competition is no less tough.

And the wide participation of member nations can be justified by letting everyone compete at the qualifications. Or by adding 2 more groups for the short program of big events. There are 6 groups for short program of the worlds. Make it 8. 90 more minutes, so what? Very few people watch all the 6 groups on the stands - I know that in many cases TV in various countries shows only later groups. The only real change will be that 12 high level skaters will be let to compete making the event much more exciting overall.

I want to explain it. I wouldn't have written this, if we were talking about, let's say downhill skiing, where on a good day, with a little luck, 2nd tier skiers can actually medal or even win. It has happened, so there would be immediate benefits for a single athlete if a country would have more start places. I remember when, a couple of years ago, in the internal Austrian qualification 4 or 5 guys where racing for the 4th and last remaining start place and that guy who won actually became Olympic champion. And everytime the Austrian team is very good, the discussion starts again. The thing is - it never lasts. And I consider that to be a good thing. Sports that are ruled by only one country are unpopular worldwide (like Rhythmic Gymnastics). And I want figure skating to be popular and I want to see various and new influences etc.. What happens now in Russian and Japanese figure skating is nothing unusual.
But figure skating is special, we are never really surprised by the podiums. The 8th best Russian skater just isn't going to medal. Not with this judging system.
And even in a sport like downhill skiing I think the limitation of start places per country is still beneficial for the sport overall.
But again - yes it's unfair. But training conditions, funding etc. is also unfair.
The poorly funded skaters from small federations are not responsible for the fact that Russian skaters are funded so generously. And some are funded based on Worlds placements. So additional skaters from bigger federations would further hurt the development of those skaters.

 

[Jeanie19]

I have a thought. Wouldn't it be wonderful if there was one competition in July or August that the Seasons best top 24 juniors and seniors had a competition? That would start the new season. It would not count for future ranking, just a special competition for the prior seasons top skaters. They could debut new programs or skate to their old program. I would love it.

 

[Arbitrary]

I don't get what you mean. There were no promises of unique elements. Quad girls did not participate at CoR. Hanyu did. Yes, he drove the prices to the unreasonable level, yet the stands were packed. Hanyu and big competitions aside, even when a JGP stage and a B level competition were held in a small Russian town Saransk there was much more public than - you pick any name but Japan.

Sorry, misinterpreted with RusFed Championships where TUT girls made the show and TAT helped a lot with her screams on TV.

Regarding the CoR indeed it was some promise. Dmitriev attempted his quaxel (for no good yes, but was a 1st available).
And Hanyu is a big figure not only in Japan but in Russia too. His fanclub is enormous.

 

[eaglehelang]

The entrance to JGP is free in many cases - the stands are empty except for Russia and Japan. The tickets to B events are cheap -the stands are empty. At the same time, Megasport with more than 10 000 seats was quite packed for CoR although even official price for the best seats was equal to a half of average monthly salary in Russia. As I said, at the Olympics the stands were empty during early groups of ladies. The same people who did not bother to come early came for the last groups despite ticket prices. Hence, the price is not an issue - the dramatic difference between the quality of skating is. People just don't want to waste time on what does not move them, own country or not. I like curling - both to play and to watch. I watch Russian teams but only women. Men are too weak - I don't watch them. The same is true about hockey, although the gender choice is opposite: why should I spend hours of my life if the Russian women team will surely lose to the Americans or Canadians? People watch their countrymates when they have something to offer as competitors - not for the sake of general support unless they are relatives, friends or big time fans, surely not the general public.

It is an issue if compared to OTHER sports ticket prices. Major championships, Worlds with Worlds. If I am to choose figure skating WC, or say badminton, track cycling, squash WC, just counting on cost alone, I would buy the other 3 sports.
There's a reason figure skating is known as an expensive sport.

I watch the figure skater from my country, he's in the 1st group. He will not ever be medal contender. So do my fellow countrymen/countrywoman. Why I even follow singles skating in the 1st place is because that lone guy is competing.

You dont want to watch some of your Russian athletes compete doesnt mean those from other countries dont want to watch our athletes compete. The mentality going into it different as in - 'we need to support our countryman/woman else nobody alse would cos they are unknown'.

I am glad some of your fellow Russian supporters think differently and cheer for Russia badminton players. Yes, they went to the stadium to watch the top players fight it out but made sure they are there to support Russia, regardless of placing.

For a time, many dont watch badminton women's singles & women doubles finals cos it was usually China vs China. It's boring cos 1) Usually they are playing like its a practice session 2) Sometimes it's already 'decided' who is supposed to win get more ranking points. China's going to win anyway, nothing to be excited about. Unless they are China supporters.
That's the time people will go out of the stadium, go eat their meal, then come back for the mens event.
Until a Thai girl won Woman Singles Worlds in 2013, then surprise2 a Spain girl 2016 Olympics. And none are import athletes from China. Then it made watching the women's event more interesting.

So, coming back to Ladies figure skating, if I think Russia( or Japan) going to win 1-2 for sure, I wouldnt watch. Nothing much exciting, except for Russia(Japan) supporters. Men's single is more interesting, any 1 of top 3 can win, or someone falls on the quads then an unexpected skater medals.

 

[Spirals for Miles]

- Ah, another Tutberidze's girl? Senior from the next season? What does she jump? 3Lz-3Lo? Wake me up after a couple of quads...

Looks like many of us are overfed with those complex combos, quad attempts, edge/PR/UR issues.

I personally support the idea for ISU to introduce jump-only competitions. Say, a skater has 120 seconds or 6 attempts to do as many (but limited number) different jumps and combos as he/she feels possible. Like ski freestyle acrobatics or moto-trial...
I remember there were something like that 10+ years ago.

No, she's not with Tutberidze. I think she's with someone else in Sambo 70

 

[Arbitrary]

No, she's not with Tutberidze. I think she's with someone else in Sambo 70

At least "fskate.ru" states that. But "sportvokrug" states Volkov as her coach.

She's expected to skate at the Moscow Cup January 12-13.

 

[TallyT]

Men's single is more interesting, any 1 of top 3 can win, or someone falls on the quads then an unexpected skater medals.

There is that point - the group of top men being cheered on as possible medal contenders at the Olympics were a varied group: 2 Japanese superstars, a Spaniard who is skating in his country, the quad kings from the US and China, a Canadian legend and an unpredictable-but-can't-be-counted-out Russian (not far back if he performed!). And I've probably missed someone... some of them long term fan favourites that people have grown to personally love and follow over years, some new young guns. On top of that, the fact that they all (not just one or two as in the baby quadster girls) did the harder than hard stuff and did it thrillingly well. There was a group of 6-7 brilliant young men from all over the place with something for hard core devotee, general fan, or casual viewer.

I think we need to wait for major change until more - quite a lot more - of the women take on the harder stuff, and do it as adults as well as early teens. If it happens (and it probably will) then look at it. But I tend to agree that a sport that appears from the outside to be the exclusive domain of one or two countries... will become the exclusive interest of one or two countries.

I don't get what you mean. There were no promises of unique elements. Quad girls did not participate at CoR. Hanyu did. Yes, he drove the prices to the unreasonable level, yet the stands were packed.

I've been sorting out the videos downloaded over the last year (especially every time there's a YoutubeIsDeleting scare) and I did notice on Yuzuru's earliest senior competitions (not 2012 Worlds, the other ones!), some of the rinks were even emptier than the ones people wail about now. It looked positively unnatural from the ironic viewpoint of 2018-9...

 

[moonvine]

I LOVE this idea. Love love love it. Best of all it would give me more skating to watch.

 

[moonvine]

The entrance to JGP is free in many cases - the stands are empty except for Russia and Japan. The tickets to B events are cheap -the stands are empty. At the same time, Megasport with more than 10 000 seats was quite packed for CoR although even official price for the best seats was equal to a half of average monthly salary in Russia. As I said, at the Olympics the stands were empty during early groups of ladies. The same people who did not bother to come early came for the last groups despite ticket prices. Hence, the price is not an issue - the dramatic difference between the quality of skating is. People just don't want to waste time on what does not move them, own country or not. I like curling - both to play and to watch. I watch Russian teams but only women. Men are too weak - I don't watch them. The same is true about hockey, although the gender choice is opposite: why should I spend hours of my life if the Russian women team will surely lose to the Americans or Canadians? People watch their countrymates when they have something to offer as competitors - not for the sake of general support unless they are relatives, friends or big time fans, surely not the general public.

At Worlds in 2016 I watched every single short - men's and ladies - and enjoyed them all to a greater or lesser extent. . I can't afford to go to GP events outside the US or even mostly the ones in the US. Many performances move me besides the top skaters. Guess I am an odd duck.

 

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At Worlds in 2016 I watched every single short - men's and ladies - and enjoyed them all to a greater or lesser extent. . I can't afford to go to GP events outside the US or even mostly the ones in the US. Many performances move me besides the top skaters. Guess I am an odd duck.

You are not general public. I am not either - I watched all SP groups during OG - it was fun. But I am general public in other cases - I cited curling as an example. Unfortunately, figure skating fans do not form a critical mass on the stands except for Russia and Japan. Hence, all the ideas should cater not only to them but to those who would like to see the cream of the crops - the general public. And this general public won't bother to watch early groups on TV - that's why they often don't show them or show just the own country performances.

 

[moonvine]

You are not general public. I am not either - I watched all SP groups during OG - it was fun. But I am general public in other cases - I cited curling as an example. Unfortunately, figure skating fans do not form a critical mass on the stands except for Russia and Japan. Hence, all the ideas should cater not only to them but to those who would like to see the cream of the crops - the general public. And this general public won't bother to watch early groups on TV - that's why they often don't show them or show just the own country performances.

Figure skating was at one time popular enough in the US to support amateur as well as professional skaters and my understanding is one could make a pretty decent living as a professional skater in ice shows. Maybe we should figure out why it is no longer so popular and try to figure out how to fix it. I find it interesting that in WAG NCAA gymnastics seems more popular than Elite level gymnastics. The NCAA gymnasts sell out stadiums every Friday night. NCAA gymnastics is scored out of a 10.0, people understand that and if you fall you are not going to get a high score.

 

[noskates]

I don't see whats wrong with what we have now.

Me either!

The difference between NCAA Gymnastics and figure skating is quite large. First of all, NCAA Gymnastics is part of the curriculum at the majority of colleges and universities all over the country that field sports teams. There are competitions every weekend during the season and the attention given to gymnastics as a result far exceeds figure skating. There is interest in the collegiate competitions and they're aired on national TV on a regular basis. On the other hand, professional gymnasts and programs for professional gymnasts seem to be contingent on Olympic years and the success of the US gymnasts at the Olympics. They might be selling out gymnasiums but selling out stadiums? Arenas? Maybe. But it's still a niche sport and I would hazard a guess that there are fewer "elite" gymnasts than "elite figure skaters!" Basically - apples and oranges and I'm not sure what the point is in trying to compare them. Figure skating on the college level is pretty sparse.

 

[Casual]

I cringe every time I see this thread. "Silver foxes", really? Like elderly, with silver-hair? Maybe with a cane, too? Limping, from old age?

Very sexist attitude, IMHO. Female bodies do not develop at the same rate or age. Innate musicality also has nothing to do with age. Finally, proper technique and quality of execution should matter more.

The issue of "jumping boring young 'uns vs. more polished and artistically pleasing geriatrics (excuse me, "silver foxes" )" is a mirage. The problem lies with judging.

Nothing will be solved by separating ages, if judging is not fixed.

(As for limiting the age, I'm all for it - with the purpose of protecting younger kids for excessive risks and burnout. But each case is individual, and girls mature differently. So some flexibility is warranted.)

 

[Mathman]

I cringe every time I see this thread. "Silver foxes", really? Like elderly, with silver-hair? Maybe with a cane, too? Limping, from old age?

Very sexist attitude, IMHO.

I was wondering when someone would mention this. A "silver fox" is an older white-haired gentleman who is handsome, suave and debonaire, and attractive to ladies half his age.

The minute you walked in the joint
I could see you were a man of distinction
A real Big Spender
Good looking, so refined -- spend ... a little time with me.

 

[Metis]

I was wondering when someone would mention this. A "silver fox" is an older white-haired gentleman who is handsome, suave and debonaire, and attractive to ladies half his age.

In other words: Ted Barton.