- Joined
- May 15, 2009
I am sure if Yuna could actually do this jump she would be the "poster child" for pre-rotations. Oops - that won't happen will it: Yuna can't do this jump!!
Some scientific analysis of Mao's 3A
- Thread starter Bennett
- Start date
I am sure if Yuna could actually do this jump she would be the "poster child" for pre-rotations. Oops - that won't happen will it: Yuna can't do this jump!!
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
I am sure if Yuna could actually do this jump she would be the "poster child" for pre-rotations. Oops - that won't happen will it: Yuna can't do this jump!!
You are probably right, but what I'm saying is that if Mao's 3a only has 2.75 rotations in the air and Yuna's 2a gets that much height, she probably COULD do a pre-rotated 3a. But she doesn't need it, and I would hate to see her focus on a 3a and let other aspects of her skating decline
2.75? Where does that come from? If she is not downgraded on the attempt, it can't be that bad.
If Yuna were only to get 0.51 on a 3A attempt the way she is on 2A, and she cheats the takeoff and landing by 0.25 each, she still has to do close to 6 rps in the air when she is currently doing less than 5. Getting there would be a huge amount of work (increasing her rotation rate by more than 20%), with no guarantee of success. Or it means increasing her height in the Axel takeoff by more than a factor of 2, also a huge amount of work with no guarantee of success. I think they are smart to be working elsewhere to increase points, and not go after a difficult jump just for the status of achieving it.
The Yuna bots said Mao prerotated 1/2 + cheated the landing by 1/4, just enough to miss the downgrade call. Total is 3.5 - .75 = 2.75 rev on air.
This is just textbook perfect...beautiful height...you can compare that jump to any of the gentlemen competing in this competition, it's just as good. -- Olympian Susie Wynne commenting on Mao Asada's triple axel at the 2008 4CC Championships. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-sHFceaGEY
My favorite jump is the axel, and I agree with 2-time Olympic Champion Dick Button when he mentions how a skater "steps up" into the jump, how impressive it is, some of which bring to mind Johnny Weir & Kurt Browning. Personally, Mao Asada's triple axel has always reminded me of Johnny Weir's -- the entrance, the step up, and the technique -- love it!
This is why my favorite quotes come from the elite in the figure skating world. I trust their judgement more than all else. They've actually competed at the top echelon, they've earned my respect & trust (e.g. Dick Button, Scott Hamilton, Susie Wynne, et al).
My favorite jump is the axel, and I agree with 2-time Olympic Champion Dick Button when he mentions how a skater "steps up" into the jump, how impressive it is, some of which bring to mind Johnny Weir & Kurt Browning. Personally, Mao Asada's triple axel has always reminded me of Johnny Weir's -- the entrance, the step up, and the technique -- love it!
This is why my favorite quotes come from the elite in the figure skating world. I trust their judgement more than all else. They've actually competed at the top echelon, they've earned my respect & trust (e.g. Dick Button, Scott Hamilton, Susie Wynne, et al).
She takes off backwards and is 1/4 short? HTB!
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
That's what I've heard, I can't really tell.
Yes, she takes off backward. In almost all the 3A from Mao I saw, she pre-rotates about 1/2 turn and lands between 1/4 ~ 1/8 short. Although I read from this board that it's legal 3A just like Lysacek's. That would make the number of her air rotation between 2.75 ~ 3. I haven't checked, but I heard that when she was 15, it's better, like 3.2 or 3.3 when it's good.
ETA, I found this on youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9Zul_nB3Ks
First one is Mao's 3A, and you can clearly see her taking off backward in the slow-mo. And I did notice that she's really rotating fast.
Last edited:
I understand the point of the article (low and fast vs high and slower) but I don't believe there are TWO types of jupmers. I believe there is a continuim from low and fast to high and slower. I believe Mao is above the middle range. Low being say 5 inches and high being 36 inches. She definaltly does her 3A in a range from 18 - 26 inches. I have seen her do them several dozen times ten feet in fromt of me. If you by the practice pass for events you can stand by the boards and watch her (and others) jump. It is actually better than attending the competition.
Look at the slow motion videos I posted. There is a link above. I have several more I am working on. Mao pre rotates 1/4 turn and does not cheat the landing. When I said that every skater pre rotates these jumps they told me to look at Tonya Hardings practice 3A (Which is an awesone 3A) I pulled that into Kinovea and can see that Tonys is pre rotates 1/4 turn on the takeoff.
It is legal by the rules as lons as you are not clearly backward. I am not sure it is possible to not rotate as you are taking off.
I still want to check Ito's. Hers looks the least pre rotated but when you take them fram by frame you find out it is not. The difficulty with analyzing Ito's is that the videos are old and fuzzy so it is hard to see.
By the way, I am almost done with Yu Na's 2A. Guess what, she is more than 1/4 turn pre rotated on take off!
As I said before, Mao and Yu Na are both awesone skaters. I really think it is just a small group of people that are making a lot of noise on either side. I have a feeling most fans are like me and think both of these girls are legendary skaters.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
I wouldn't be surprised, I have heard some say that Yuna does not do a true 2a as she throws her body into the jump. BUT I have seen videos of her doing 2a on the ground in sneakers....that can't be easy.
No, no, no, no, no..... did I say no?
It is not clearly taking off backward. I slowed it down some more using Adobe Premier. Take look at this. It is regular speed, then slowed TO 50% and then to 25%. She is 1/4 turn rotated when she leaves the ice. If you look closely she even twists her foot back a little before taking off.
http://www.youtube.com/user/GoFigureSkating#p/u/5/XzFGzsn6Skg
She is clearly 100% rotated on the landing. If you need me to slow it down more let me know but I think this shows it clearly.
I actually looked at the video frame by frame - yeah, slow night and all -. That jump seems to be pre-rotated more than 1/4 turn, but less than 1/2 turn. -To check more, what I would need it high resolution video, not slower video. - But still, I agree that jump is one of her best ones, it's not short on landing.
ETA,what's the definition of clear backward, direction of body? or blade?
Last edited:
When I saw this video I belived it, but then it is in my nature to question everything. Of course if you figure me out yet, I had to slow it down and check. It is amzing what happens when you slow things down.
They are not in the air for the same amount of time. Yu Na leaves the ice first. and they land at almost the same time. If you look close you can see it at normal speed. Anyhow, here are the numbers.
It is amzing what rumors are created when someone puts up a video and gives it a title like that. People believe it and spread the word.
Last edited:
When I saw this video I belived it, but then it is in my nature to question everything. Of course if you figure me out yet, I had to slow it down and check. It is amzing what happens when you slow things down.
They are not in the air for the same amount of time. Mao leave the ice first. and they land at almost the same time. If you look close you can see it at normal speed. Anyhow, here are the numbers.
It is amzing what rumors are created when someone puts up a video and gives it a title like that. People believe it and spread the word.
Hm. are you sure you're looking at the same video? I checked this video too, frame by frame. I can clearly see around :05 that where Yuna already jumped and half-turned, Mao's still on the ice. And when Yuna landed, Mao's still in air. - I haven't checked exact time difference though, so I can't say anything about the same time, yet.
Being lazy sort, just adding the key shot, showing Yuna backward and Mao's foot with connected shadow. Hopefully this is clear shot.
Last edited:
I would think it is all about the blade when it comes to cheated landings but I am no expert.
Since you watched frame by frame, did you notice that she pre rotates a bit more than 1/4 turn but just before taking off twists her foot back to less than 1/4. I thought that was interesting. I can see how at regular speed it would look more than 1/4.
I have looked a tons of jumps with my daughter. Mao's 3As are often 1/4 (90 deg) to about 140 deg (180 deg is backward) on take off. Most are near 1/4 turn regardless of what you hear on the web.
As I said before, my daughter's jump coach tells her to emulate Mao because she has the best 3A he has seen. From getting low before take off, kicking up that knee, to her excellent, excellent air position, to her almost silent landing. When she gets it right is is the best ever.
Do you have Kinovea? It is a great free tool to analyze jumps and spins. Just like DartFish but free. You can even de-interlace the frames and then use the arrow keys to move forward and backward frame by frame. You can even put your skater side by side with Mao to compare
I can't think of any other skater that you would want someone to emulate on a 3A.
Yes Midori's is higher but if you look she has a wrap and that is not what you want (unless you can jump as high as her)
Unfortunately YouTube is blocked from my computer, so I will just watch the words fly on this one, but I have never seen any Axel takeoff that I can remember that I though was fully backwards.
As for defining the rotation, I mostly agree with someone's earlier comment, that it's not necessarily about the position of the blade during the skid, its the orientation of the hips, and for me also the shoulders (the torso as a whole), that determine the direction/rotation angle at the takeoff. If the blade is 1/4 turned and skidding forwards sideways (motion of skid perpendicular to the length of the blade) and the hips and shoulders are still pointed forwards (direction of motion perpendicular to the line between the points of the hips/shoulders) then the body rotation has not really begun and the takeoff is not cheated for rotations (though I would still mark down the skid if it is really long or significantly reduces the forward motion of the jump.)
On the other hand if the body (hips and shoulders) have turned with the foot as it skids, then the jump is pre-rotated in terms of counting number of turns in the air from my point of view.
What the skid buys the skater is increased initial angular momentum at the cost of horizontal speed at the takeoff.
Yes, that is the way the TP does it when they call downgrades -- after the blade contacts the ice how much does the blade rotate.
Last edited:
You are correct. I have it backwards in the titles. The numbers are correct but it is Yu Na that is in the air longer. I did not see that Mao was on the left. They are so tiny.
Yu Na is definatly jumping higher not the same.
I will edit the post and fix the titles.
I agree that Mao's jump is very soft one esp. axel. It goes up very pretty. Although she needs long preparation time for 3A, which a bit lessens the beauty.
For video manipulating, I 'm just using quick time. I do have some other s/w somewhere but usually I'm pretty content with simple tool
I agree that Mao's jump is very soft one esp. axel. It goes up very pretty. Although she needs long preparation time for 3A, which a bit lessens the beauty.
For video manipulating, I 'm just using quick time. I do have some other s/w somewhere but usually I'm pretty content with simple tool
Kinovea is very simple and it is free. It has advance features but you do not have to use them. You can get it at kinovea.org
I use it with my daughter and some of her friends at the rink. It reavals a lot. I often here things like "I didn't think my legs were bent like that" or "wow one of my elbows is sticking out"
Last edited:
