Correct. I was not.
Some scientific analysis of Mao's 3A
- Thread starter Bennett
- Start date
Correct. I was not.
yeah, that's true.
I just like her energetic expressions. That's all. Also, when she does deliever 3t-3t, it looks totally awesome.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2010
I also have never heard that judges count rotations by any shoulder waves. Any ideas?
Didn't mean that either. My only comment about the shoulders was when analyzing the mechanics of rotation of the body I look not only at the foot, but also at the hips and the shoudlers. This comment has nothing to do with judging. It's also not a comment about what the skater should be doing. It's only a comment about looking at everything the body is doing and when it happens.
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2010
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
yeah, that's true.
I just like her energetic expressions. That's all. Also, when she does deliever 3t-3t, it looks totally awesome.
I agree, she does have a nice quality to her skating. Have you seen her exhibition piece? It's awesome, love the ribbons :agree:
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2010
Well, a perfect 3A surely deserves a 8.2 point, but as for a cheated one... giving it a full or partial credit would only reward those who have guts, not skills.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Dec 12, 2005
The thing I find most interesting is that Mao is dedicating this tighter and faster rotation to the 3A... yes, it's an amazing thing to do, but why not apply this rotation to her other jumps. More specifically, work on her 3-3's where the second triple always is lower and has less air time from its lack of momentum and energy. I'd like to see her try putting two 3-3 combos in her program instead of one 3A. If she is truly learning to rotate that much faster in the air, she can get bigger point gains elsewhere if she applies it to other jumps and leaves the 3A out.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
Well, I think she already does have tighter/faster rotations on all types of jumps in general, but agree that her second jumps in combo are small. I think it's just Team Mao decided to really focus on axel, loop, flip, particularly the axel, this season. The ideal of course is to be able to execute all types of jumps perfectly, but given that Yuna's leaving out loop, has only so-so axel and salchow jumps, and is putting all her money on her toe jumps, I guess it's not strategic suicide to do that.
Also, this is pure speculation but I think Team Mao really want to make sure that she perfects all her jumps in such a way that she doesn't get injured in the process and also learns to execute them with a technique that is as risk-free/injury-free as possible.
The thing about Mao's physiology is that she's generally very flexible, perhaps most importantly, having very flexible (and strong) ankles and knees. This allows her to execute high-quality axel and loop, as both these jumps (when jumped ideally) requires the skater to lower the body below the knees at the point of take-off, with knees over ankle, in order to create the momentum to pop into the air.
By now, it should be clear that strong, flexible ankles and knees are paramount in order to execute high-quality axel, but this is also the case with loops. I've not seen this being discussed on figure skating discussion forums, but with the loop take-off, you literally need to get into a sit position right before the take-off and spring up into the air using your ankles and knees to create the pop into the air. I'm not making this up. I saw Junko Yaginuma explain the ideal loop take-off technique on TV using slow-mo.
So you see, it's no wonder Yuna doesn't include (and probably by now, can't do) the loop properly, because she's got very stiff ankles and knees (as is otherwise demonstrated in her lack of turn-out and pointed toes in her spiral and spins). Mind you, she used to be more flexible around 2006-2007, but I guess Team Yuna chose the strategy of stiffening her up so that she could do her toe-jumps better, because if you've got inflexible knees and ankles that can't/won't absorb the force of the ice pick when executing toe jumps, the momentum that is created by the toe pick travels up the body resulting in a huge jump.
This goes to show that the ability to execute high quality axel/loop requires a completely opposite physiology to that required to do high-quality toe jumps in terms of ankles and knees, so I guess that's why skaters who have mastered all six techniques, axel, lutz, flip, toe loop, salchow, loop are considered to be the most complete skaters.
Considered in this light, neither Mao nor Yuna are very complete jumpers because Mao can do the jumps that require flexible ankles/knees very well, while Yuna can do the jumps that are more successfully done with stiff ankles/knees very well, but neither can do both types of jumps well. So Joannie, Akiko and Miki are probably the most complete jumpers, though of course, in being able to do all the jumps well, they cannot be said to be the BEST in any jump either. (Except, of course, Miki and her salchow.)
Anyway, so I've digressed a bit, but going back to the original speculation I was trying to make, my guess is that for this season, Team Mao have decided to perfect her ability to do the jumps that utilize her flexibility, and after this season, try and come up with a way/technique that will enable her to do the toe jumps, but maybe not in the way that Yuna does it, because while Yuna's toe jump technique which is largely dependent on her stiff ankles/knees may result in spectacular toe jumps, it's hardly ideal in that it's probably very damaging to the body. Every time Yuna does those toe jumps, her body must experience huge shock waves that reverbrates throughout the body, and it's one thing if you've got a male Joubertesque body where strong muscles will serve as an armour to protect the nerves, bones, etc. from jiggling apart too much. However, Yuna's body seems so delicate and fine and I can't really see her body coping too well with the physical abuse that is unavoidable with this type of jump technique.
Maybe Team Mao will look to Plushenko's technique to improve her jumps. Plushenko does his toe jumps without banging his toe pick into the ice, and rotates quickly and tightly. I would venture to guess that they're already trying to do that now, and have managed to fix Mao's toe loop technique. If you look at her toe loop, her toe pick is ever so light and delicate, resulting in a jump with quick, tight rotations and height. As far as her flip (and lutz) technique is concerned, I have to believe that they'll change it after the Olympics. Once they've figured that out, they'll then probably try and figure out a way for her to do triple-triple combos. But she actually doesn't absolutely need triple-triple to win, and so Team Mao probably won't let her do them if that means putting her body at an unnecessary physical risk and shortening her figure skating career.
Seen in this light, while it may seem that Mao's got the risker strategy, it's actually Team Yuna who've chosen to take the high-risk, high-return path in a far more profound kind of way.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
Right way to do it
The author of this video must be proud of the skater...
He included some stepped-out attempts...But it is perfect technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA9O8DRvgmU
Midori Ito uses the skidding...
Only as a leverage to turn... not as a tool to pre-rotate.
She converts all of her speed into the jump for the maximum height & distance.
If you pre-rotate, the jump may look... light & easy because of less rotation and
distance.
But it violates two principal rules. Cheated take-off and required rotations
Too much skidding is not a technique...
It just makes the jump... Null & Void.
The author of this video must be proud of the skater...
He included some stepped-out attempts...But it is perfect technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RA9O8DRvgmU
Midori Ito uses the skidding...
Only as a leverage to turn... not as a tool to pre-rotate.
She converts all of her speed into the jump for the maximum height & distance.
If you pre-rotate, the jump may look... light & easy because of less rotation and
distance.
But it violates two principal rules. Cheated take-off and required rotations
Too much skidding is not a technique...
It just makes the jump... Null & Void.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
Thanks so much for that great analysis! I never really thought of jumps that way, but now that you've said it, it really makes sense. I don't think Yuna is nearly as delicate as she appears though, I mean look at her muscles in this picture http://imgnews.ibtimes.co.kr/photo/2009/08/11/20090811_1249939992.jpg ! I lived in Korea for four years and the large majority of women there are very thin. I imagine the impact Yuna receives on her jumps isn't too painful, judging by how beautifully she executes those jumps time and again.
Also, Yuna is not flexible by nature. In the 06-07 season and before her spiral sequence was pretty weak, so her position now is the result of much stretching and is probably as good as it will ever get for Yuna, yet it is still much lower than the likes of Mao, Sasha, Caroline, Alissa, Mirai etc. Yuna I believed has worked on back flexibility in recent years but not hip flexibility. A commentator at last years US nationals said it was a bit counterintuitive for girls to work on their flexibility in the hips so much so that they can get high levels and GOEs on spins and spirals because then their hips are almost too loose to do jumps like loop, sal, axel. So it's six and one-half dozen or the other. I feel bad for them.
Interesting. Does this explain why Yuna was suffering from injuries a few seasons ago? I hear her back still hurts at times, so that's a possible reason for wanting to retire after the Olympics.
?? Since when Yuna has so-so axel and salchow jumps?? Where is all this coming from? :scratch: Right, it is soooo so-so that it gets around +1.5 GOEs on regular bases, she can add 3T, 2T-2L after that, she can do it out of layback Ina Bauer and spread eagle. Hm.
Salchow is not her best jump but it is solid and comfortable enough for her to be used in her gala programs. Her being an exceptional toe jumper doesn't make her a so-so edge jumper. The only jump she has trouble with is Loop. And personally I think it is more about her mental but let's not go there.
But I see what you mean by 'flexible ankle and knee' because I do notice that Mao bends her knee more than Yuna when they do 2As. And I often wondered how it would affect on jumps. It is an interesting point.
Other great loop jumpers that I can think of now include Laura Lepisto and Irina. Joannie and Midori are examples of great axel jumpers. Do they have flexible knees ankles as well?
Actually, it's quite the opposite. Just look at Yuna's Biellman position and spiral positions. She is much more flexible now than, say, 2006-2007 seasons.
However, she did mention that when she was younger, she tried hard to be more flexible by stretching then realized it didn't help her jumps, so again, you maybe have a point there. Maybe that is the reason flexible skaters like Mao and Caroline have some problems with jumps? But I think the flexibility here is more of pelvic part or hip joint, not knee and ankle parts.
Anyway, it is very interesting, indeed. I wonder about Julia Sebestyen or Yebin Mok's stiffness because they are/were arguably best lutz jumpers.
Midori is just amazing. How could she jump so high?? But her knee and ankle doen't really seem to be flexible.
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2009
To me, Yu-Na's axels have more of a "flinging youself" quality to them. They cover a lot of ice, but they don't really have that kind of float-in-the-air graceful feel. I think they deserve the GOE they get though because of the distance and landing speed though, which are incredible. :agree:
But...I feel like I'm getting off the topic.
Isn't that part of the nature of axel jumps? What do you mean by "graceful feel" of an axel jump?
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2009
Isn't that part of the nature of axel jumps? What do you mean by "graceful feel" of an axel jump?
What I meant is that to me, her axels don't seem to have the lighter-than-air quality other skaters have for this jump. I'm not saying they are bad, but I think this look has something to do with how her knees are bent (especially in the first rotation), so it gives a kind of wobbly effect. To me, they seem just heavy.
Like I said, they aren't bad, and some people might not even see what I am talking about, but it's just my opinion. :yes:
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2009
I don't know if you consider Midori Ito a good Axel jumper but she never seemed to bend her knees as much as Mao when she jumps her Axels. Same for top men Axel jumpers like Alexi Yagudin, he doesn't bends his knees as much and "flings" himself into the air.
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2009
Midori (and Alexi, of course) had a much more muscular and strong build than Mao so it didn't require as much of a knee bend.
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2009
Perhaps going to the gym and doing some more leg presses will help Mao be more consistent with the 3A.
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2009
I agree, if people think Yuna is too delicate, what do they think of Mao? To me Yuna looks sturdier than Mao on the ice.
