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- Jan 1, 2010
IMHO, if there is a gendered quality difference for 3A, its 8.2 point should be readjusted accordingly.
Some scientific analysis of Mao's 3A
- Thread starter Bennett
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IMHO, if there is a gendered quality difference for 3A, its 8.2 point should be readjusted accordingly.
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- Aug 8, 2009
That would require the adjustment to occur on all jumps at least, which, I think, would imply that men are better figure skaters than women no matter what.
Can't you see that implying that Mao's triple axel is not really a true axel because it is less powerful than Kulik's is like implying that Yuna's toe jumps are not really true toe jumps because they are less powerful than Kulik's? Or saying that Sugar Ray Leonard was not a true boxer because he was less powerful than Mohammed Ali?
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- Nov 7, 2007
One big problem with your comparison is... as you said
Yu-na Kim's toe jumps may less powerful than Kulik's...but do not break any
jump rules or requirements.
But...
Mao Asada's 3Axel breaks "Forward Take-off" rule and has only 2 3/4 - 3
rotations instead of 3 - 3 1/4 acceptable rotations.
Yu-Na's 3Luts(all toe jumps) has no pre-rotation and satisfys 2 3/4 - 3
reqiurements. Then...
Why do you think Mao's 3A(actually 2 3/4A) , which has less hight & distance
than Yu-Na's ...is worth more than Yu-Na's 3 Lutzs?
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No. Mao's 3A is good especially the video I added. I added it because it looked good.
You can't compare Kulik and Mao. I added it because I think his best 3A in the history of FS while others may disagree. Also, I think his 3A is good example of maintaining speed thruout the jump - it's more like Yuna and Mao combined (jumps like Yuna and spins like Mao). BTW, If you want to compare Kulik and Mao, you should also comapre Kulik and Yuna.
Like I said before, Yuna and Mao are both excellent jumpers. They're just different types of jumpers. Yuna can't roate as fast as Mao while Mao cannot stay in the air like Yuna. Yuna can't do 3A even with great speed and height. Mao cannot do 3-3 and weak 2nd/3rd jumps because she doesn't have enough speed (i.e. not so fast roations on 2nd/3rd) after huge/fast 1st one.
For example, both of 2A are excellent. They're just different. I don't see which one is better as they both have full rotation and right edge.
IMO, Mao's jump looks more powerful while Yuna's looks lighter.
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- Aug 8, 2009
Whether or not Mao's triple-axel is a true triple-axel or not is determined by competition technical specialists/judges. The outcome is that sometimes, they are deemed underrotated, sometimes they are deemed fully rotated. Of course, those of pro-Yuna camps like to claim that all of Mao's triple-axels are not triple-axels, and they are free to rant and rave. However, the outcome does not change. Mao has and will successfully complete the rotations required for a triple-axel.
Mao's underrotated triple-axel attempts get scored as double-axels, so Mao's under-rotated triple-axel is not worth more than a triple-lutz.
I don't agree with this. Some of her 3A is good within acceptable roations. Some are not. It's just that her success ratio wasn't that good lately.
Mao's 3A is worth more than Yuna 3L because it is not 3A and she can't do it.
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- Nov 7, 2007
The main reason of this massive discussion is...
not about apparent under rotated jumps but the ones RATIFIED.
The judges are not ready or willing to crack-down un-justifiable 3Axel only
because Mao is one of the lady who does it.
This ruling might result in medal loss of competitive skaters like Joannie, Miki
and Akkiko.
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- Aug 8, 2009
Oh SkatingAnalyst, I think the issue you want to raise was not meant to be the main theme of this thread. You should start up your own thread, and then I won't have to deal with you. Anyway, I'm outta here but here are some suggestions of thread titles that you might like to start up:
'Do judges know how to do their jobs, which is to make sure that Yuna wins no matter what?'
'Why Yuna is the best skater of all time no matter what'
'Why Yuna should win come rain, fog or fire'
'Why Yuna's technique on all elements are the best no matter what'
'Why it would not be Yuna's fault if she doesn't get gold medal'
'Why there is a conspiracy to keep Yuna from getting OGM when it is so clear that she absolutely deserves it no matter what'
You can be sure that I will not even look at any of it.
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- Nov 7, 2007
I'm a Yu-Na fan. period... NO QUESTION
BUT...
I always CHERISH... the TRUTH , PRINCIPALS and FACTS!
The biggest PROBLEM of MAO is her TECHNIQUE.
I don't doubt her ability to compete Yu-Na if she has the right technique
even without her un-justifiable 3A.
Like you admitted, Mao has no toe-jump to be proud of and...
Wasted too much time & energy to gain this UN-ACCEPTABLE 3 AXEL.
you just confirmed my belief that this thread is becoming a place for people like you to use "scientific" evidence to show that Mao has bad technique. If you have that opinion, go start a thread about "Why Mao has bad technique" LOL. Btw, it is also a FACT that Mao's 3A has been shown to be ACCEPTED by the judges at competition. Peace 
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- Nov 7, 2007
I like your opinion because...
Your opinion is based on facts.
The judges have to decide... whether to continue to accept the UN_ACCEPTABLE 3Axel.
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- Nov 12, 2009
You can't really compare Mao and Ilia Kullk's 3a. Kulik is over half a foot talller and probably about 50 pounds heavier than Mao with a higher center of gravity, hence he WILL be able to do the jump better. If you are going to compare her with a guy compare her with Oda or Takahashi because at least they have around the same height, weight, and leg length.
I know Mao doesn't really have hips but her center of gravity will be lower than any guy's, even though it is probably a bit higher than most girls. The fact that Mao as a grown female can do the 3a is pretty amazing. I know it was better when she was 13 but we see skaters lose their difficult jumps as they get older (Kimmie's 3a and 3-3, Mirai's 3-3, etc) and Mao has been able to hold on to her 3a (can't say the same for her 3-3s) even if it isn't quite as good as it used to be. And she looks normal to boot. (Female gymnasts at a high level sometimes start to look almost like a man in order to do the hard skills and rotations needed to be competitive).
I know Mao doesn't really have hips but her center of gravity will be lower than any guy's, even though it is probably a bit higher than most girls. The fact that Mao as a grown female can do the 3a is pretty amazing. I know it was better when she was 13 but we see skaters lose their difficult jumps as they get older (Kimmie's 3a and 3-3, Mirai's 3-3, etc) and Mao has been able to hold on to her 3a (can't say the same for her 3-3s) even if it isn't quite as good as it used to be. And she looks normal to boot. (Female gymnasts at a high level sometimes start to look almost like a man in order to do the hard skills and rotations needed to be competitive).
Here's my take on what happened to Mao's 3-3. When Mao was younger, it was easier for her to do these jumps. She seemed to have more stamina and never looked tired throughout the program. I remembered she often included hard jumps after the second half of the LP. But recently, she seems to look tired and perhaps her stamina is not as good as before. Therefore, I think her focus on doing 3A (a hard jump) affects her 3-3, because it is too tiring to do both jumps for her. So she has to choose between 3A and 3-3, and since Mao is dedicated to 3A she abandoned 3-3 and so we see her not having 3-3 in her programs now.
Urgh. the thread is going really ugly at this point. Disappointing, it started really fascinating esp. to nerd like me.
I agree with this. The fact is Mao's doing 3A, where as Yuna can't. So Mao's 3A technique is much better than Yuna's. Period.
Rotation is important part of figure skating jump, not just distance and height. So Yuna's technique gives her good height/distance, which translates to GOE. It seems that Mao's technique are better for rotation, and she's getting ratified 3A. Which is tremendous feat for female skater to do, and I think that should be respected in any case.
I agree with this. The fact is Mao's doing 3A, where as Yuna can't. So Mao's 3A technique is much better than Yuna's. Period.
Rotation is important part of figure skating jump, not just distance and height. So Yuna's technique gives her good height/distance, which translates to GOE. It seems that Mao's technique are better for rotation, and she's getting ratified 3A. Which is tremendous feat for female skater to do, and I think that should be respected in any case.
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HA HA, I am not that shallow.
I regret a little bit not having just seen someone's belief.
If I may be so bold as to say that it was quite funny that how they could bring in old rules instead of new ones and wrong formula they didn't know well so as to scientifically analyze their favorite skater's technique.
Hence, I said new rules, right formula and something important based on official elements offered by ISU. But what I read was just someone's belief, so I was feeling out of place here and I didn't need to talk about cult, because I am sure that everyone's entitled to their own belief. Am I supposed to be touchy, much ?
huh?
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- Jan 1, 2010
So many commentators including Scott and Peggy compliment Kim's 3-3 is much better than mens' in its height, distance, and air position. But Asada's 3A quality is seriously less than any men's 3A in its rotations, skidding, and take-off position, but mostly she gets every credit if she lands it. That's why I think the point for "un-true" 3A sometimes seems just ridiculous.
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- Nov 12, 2009
This makes sense though, they say that the 3a requires a lot of upper body strength, while all the others do not require quite so much. So for Yuna to be able to do a 3-3 better than guys makes sense because she isn't at a disadvantage being a girl, and in some ways her being significantly lighter and shorter than most of the guys could play to her advantage. For the 3a, Mao is at a disadvantage because she's female, and a small one at that. It would be one thing if she were built like Joannie (Kimmie could probably do 3a because she was all pumped up in her upper body), but Mao has skinny arms and small shoulders which means she has much less upper body strength (though more than it appears) than the men who are throwing great triple axels.
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- Jan 1, 2010
I just think it is fair and right to set the identical standard for the ratification of 3A, if its point for both men and ladies is the same, as we do in other jumps. I don't see any one reason to specifically be lenient for 3A in its ratification, while staying strict on others. Why do we so suddenly count in a gender factor for 3A?
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While 3-3 is difficult, more women attempt it than 3A, so it's probably because very few ladies have attempted 3A in competition that the judges are more lenient with it. If more ladies do 3A, perhaps the judging will be stricter. Also, I think there has always been a gender factor in judging figure skating. The men are expected to do harder jumps and their scores are higher as a result. Well, I have also heard commentators say Mao's 3A is textbook perfect and as good as any guy's so I dunno we can base it on commentator's opinions.
